Hello

[JonathanR]

Off course.

Sounds like a great idea. Enjoy it. Sounds peaceful.

All best


Jon

[Joutai]

Hello, Jon. I just had a weird experience but I'm not sure if it was just my mind playing tricks on me.

It felt like I "saw" myself fall asleep, and during sleep, I was aware I was asleep. Yet I knew everything was a dream. While dreaming, it felt like I was still connected to sensations. Like energy was something I could notice while watching my dream. But i couldn't really think or discern location of the energy. I wasn't aware of a body, but everything felt very alive. And I "watched" myself wake up and right now I feel incredibly restful. I don't have that "morning buffer" and just feel completely energized yet at rest right now.

Thank you.

[JonathanR]

Hi Johnny

That's an amazing dream. I like the way everything felt very alive. Dreams can be very interesting in relation to non-dual inquiry. They can't be forced, or made to happen to order of, course but they can happen naturally.

Aliveness is noticeable during waking life too, as I'm sure you know.

Jon

[Joutai]

Now, look for a line or edge where "I" ends and "everything else" begins.

What do you find?

I was having some trouble figuring out what "I" was. I heard a squirrel going through the trees while someone was talking behind me, I tried to get a sense of "I" listening, but I couldn't find what was listening. I had my eyes open trying to figure out where this "I" began looking but couldn't get a sense of it. I alternated it with my eyes closed and couldn't get a sense for it either. I'm not sure why right now I can't find where the sense of I would even start. When interacting with other people or the animals, I couldn't get a sense of "I" in relationship to anything. Just kind of like a naturalness of what''s happening but not a person who made a decision to interact or not. So I guess I couldn't look for the line when I couldn't find the "I" first, but everything feels very natural and smooth.

[JonathanR]

Hi Johnny

Well done for trying out the exercise.

. I'm not sure why right now I can't find where the sense of I would even start.

That's good.

Is it necessary to know why?

What if "why"? cannot really be answered?

. I can't find where the sense of I would even start. When interacting with other people or the animals, I couldn't get a sense of "I" in relationship to anything. Just kind of like a naturalness of what''s happening but not a person who made a decision to interact or not. So I guess I couldn't look for the line when I couldn't find the "I" first, but everything feels very natural and smooth.

Wonderful. Naturalness is perfect .

So how does the impression of 'separation' stand now, in light of this?


Love

Jon

[Joutai]

.

That's good.

Is it necessary to know why?

What if "why"? cannot really be answered?

That takes a lot of struggle away since things don't feel like they're personally about me but nothing at all.

Wonderful. Naturalness is perfect .

So how does the impression of 'separation' stand now, in light of this?

It feels a flow where there isn't really a decision to be made, yet it's engaged but not on anything specific.

[JonathanR]

Hi Johnny

How is it going? I've been busy for a couple of days but freer now.

In relation to 'separation', does it seem now that separation is more of an idea about feeling separated from things rather than an actual reality?

Jon

[Joutai]

Hi Johnny

How is it going? I've been busy for a couple of days but freer now.

In relation to 'separation', does it seem now that separation is more of an idea about feeling separated from things rather than an actual reality?

Jon

Yeah. I can't find an individual in myself or from someone else if that makes sense. I mean, on a practical way, you're Jon, but not a separate thing. Or the people I interact with. Not a separate individual but I can use those words practically.

[JonathanR]

So does it seem clear that no self is seen? Do you feel that you could say with confidence that the illusion is seen?

Jon

[Joutai]

So does it seem clear that no self is seen? Do you feel that you could say with confidence that the illusion is seen?

Jon

The most clearest thing is there is no individual. There's no self thoughts point to. There's no individual that emotions or sensations point to. Even situations are empty as they don't point to anything in particular. There isn't an "other," yet it's obvious that can't be used as an excuse to bypass the relative life and relative responsibilities.

[JonathanR]

Hi Johnny

. The most clearest thing is there is no individual. There's no self thoughts point to. There's no individual that emotions or sensations point to. Even situations are empty as they don't point to anything in particular. There isn't an "other," yet it's obvious that can't be used as an excuse to bypass the relative life and relative responsibilities.

How does it feel to see this?

[Joutai]

Hi Johnny

How does it feel to see this?

It feels neutral but not flat. There's still all the energy and sensations but they don't have that "personal pull" to them. I can feel the body moving and typing but there isn't a sense that "I" chose to type or anything. Any situation doesn't feel like a decision is being made. Sometimes there's more or less energy but no one is directly calling forth or lowering that energy.

[JonathanR]

Ok, thank you for that.

I'd like to ask you a set of six questions now. I'll list these.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


You might find that these take time to answer ,so please don't feel rushed. Answer all six or one or two at a time, if you like?.

Once you've answered we can look together at what you have said.

Love

Jon

[Joutai]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Not that I can tell. And there couldn't be before as that would be another thought. All the previous thoughts of a "self" were just a thought.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Now it seems is that there's an experience and there's a thought that's attached to the experience trying to give a "self" life by forming a belief. A sensation arises. A thought "it's uncomfortable, it must be loneliness. Therefore "I" am experiencing loneliness." There's a thought trying to relate to what's happening and that thought is trying to validate it's own reason for being there as "me." "I" am deciding to do this or that, but there's only what's happening with the thought trying to take ownership of what's happening. When there's a sensation and a thought follows, "this is uncomfortable, "I" have to do something about it."

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels more relaxed and less resistance to what's happening. There's also less resistance to thoughts. There's movement, energy, thought, but no ownership for them. There used to be a resistance to thought, but now it's allowed to be here. Even if there can be moments where thoughts seem to be the most pervasive, there doesn't seem to be a self-reflection that I'm choosing to be more or less interested in thoughts or any part of experience. Attention doesn't seem to have a center that's pointing attention towards one thing over another. Yet, it feels more "wide," with more things in awareness yet still can hyperfocus if the situation calls for it.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?


I had a bit of a cough when I was sitting by the lake, and I couldn't find a center that made the choice to repress or express the cough. I couldn't find what was "controlling," only that it felt like there was no choice when the cough was held or let loose. So I continued walking and trying to find what was in relation to the sounds and interacting with the people I walked by, but there was no "self" making decisions.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.


Decision feels automatic. When I was asked to go to a closer location for work for a few days, there wasn't a thought deciding to either walk or drive. There wasn't someone questioning to either walk or drive, just a felt sense that deciding to walk or drive that day felt obvious.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.


Intention feels like attention being pointed towards something. Yet there doesn't seem to be a "self" directing intention. The pointers you gave me didn't feel like a "self" having to orient itself to them. Attention just oriented itself based off a natural curiosity. Or when I was called at work to give an example. "I" didn't choose to put some attention into thought to answer her question, but attention naturally went to thought to practically answer her question. So there's "intention," but no one guiding "intention."

Describe free will & give examples from experience.


There doesn't seem to be free will, but I'm also not saying it feels predetermined like destiny. Just that there isn't an "individual will" pushing how things are flowing. Like given the choice to either pack an orange or persimmon for my lunch, there was no one "picking," it just felt kind of obvious. Or going to sleep earlier because of my new schedule. There wasn't a mental analysis of having to do so, just knowing in the body if an adjustment isn't made, there could be tiredness that would not be the best for me. Yet, regardless of what's happening, there isn't a sense of "I" that could change what's happening naturally. So if I didn't sleep to earlier to adjust for whatever reason, I can't point to an "I" or specific reason on why things are unfolding the way they are.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.


Choice feels like a thought. Having to pick either this or that. I work with children and had to walk one up the stairs when someone higher up told us to stay on the right side of the stairs. There was a reflection in thought wondering if she meant me too, so the choice of continuing on the left or listen to her tell the kid to stay on the right and should I follow or not." But falling into the space where the mind is trying to decide or not doesn't feel like a choice. So, in a strange way, there can be the act trying to make a choice, but that in of itself isn't a choice.

Describe control & give examples from experience.


I'm going to describe "control" as the mind trying to alter experience. The mind trying to prevent "negative" outcomes and gather "positive" outcomes. I've had a lingering cough for a week and when other people are around, the mind can try "control" experience by believing the thought "I don't want to embarrass myself by coughing around other people. Better "control" that cough." But when you see the "control" as resistance, it's easy to let it go and whether I did or didn't cough, there isn't a judgement of what would happen either way. And no one seemed to care or comment on my occasional cough around them but my throat sure did feel good when control was let go. Yet, there doesn't seem to be anyone who's directly in control of "control." Just mindful of control and a natural release of control into flow.

What makes things happen? How does it work?


I'm a little confused if there is something specific here. Is this question a continuation of the previous? If it's a general question, the mind tries to create a relationship between things to explain how things happen. But if the answer isn't looked for in the mind, no relationship between cause and effect has to be found. But there can still be a practical explanation without the attachment of seeing it as entirely true and the thought can be up for debate/interpretation as the thought of the relationship is just a thought and not the direct experience of it. Like when a coworker asked where her stapler went and we tried to figure it out by looking around looking for potential culprits. The relative relationships can still be investigated, but it's secondary to the sense that there isn't really a direct relationship between things, making things impersonal.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.


On a relative sense, I am responsible for my actions and how I treat the people around me. I am responsible for my occupation and my relationship to other people. Yet, there's the nonattachment where none of that is a reflection of me so it could be seen as having no responsibilities and still having a sense of being willing to honor having those relative responsibilities even when there's nothing saying I should. There's no "self" that has to or not honor going to work, but the body still moves and takes care of business. I can't point to a direct reason why when it's seen that nothing actually has to be honored. Yet things on a relative sense I still take responsibility for such as respecting my friends boundaries, following the rules at work just because there's a sincerity that isn't averse for being responsible for actions this body can take care of.

6) Anything to add?
I'm more curious on the feedback and what else there is to investigate. And thank you.

[JonathanR]

Thanks for your detailed answers.

. I'm a little confused if there is something specific here. Is this question a continuation of the previous?

This was you asking about "How do things work? What makes things happen?

It relates to the previous few questions but with a different twist

If it's a general question, the mind tries to create a relationship between things to explain how things happen.

Yes. That seems true.

. The relative relationships can still be investigated, but it's secondary to the sense that there isn't really a direct relationship between things, making things impersonal.

Yes. I mean, there are plenty of narratives we're taught as kids about what 'causes' what to happen but is any of that traceable or findable in immediate experience?

Id like to ask some other guides to take a look at our conversation. It's possible that they will have further questions for you. It may take a couple of days for them to communicate.

All best,

Jon ,