Why do I feel I exist when I know that I don't?

[odemira]

Sure :)

[Dave]

Hey Odemira,

At the time of my last post I had "lost it" again. I'm sorry but I just couldn't face even typing that at the time. Since then I've been sitting in the poor me house licking my wounds, with zero interest in liberation, life or anything at all.

I guess I'm back for round.... Hmmm what is this now, round 4?

Once again, from the top..........

Dave.

[odemira]

Hey Dave,

I empathise!

Let's not count rounds, it only builds the 'Dave the seeker' story again. And what is indisputable is that the realisation that there is not a 'self' has been seen, that's how the thought arises that 'you've lost it'. Can't lose what never was.

Ok, from the top - Tell me all the places or ways in which you think you as a self exist, and where you already have no doubt that it does not exist. Write me a list (cos when you write for me, you write for you, yes? No separation!)

with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Hi Odemira,

Man! This conversation is so long you're beginning to feel like an old friend :) Oh well!

I empathise!

Thank you :)

Let's not count rounds, it only builds the 'Dave the seeker' story again.

Sounds like a plan :)

And what is indisputable is that the realisation that there is not a 'self' has been seen, that's how the thought arises that 'you've lost it'. Can't lose what never was.

Indeed!

Ok, from the top - Tell me all the places or ways in which you think you as a self exist, and where you already have no doubt that it does not exist. Write me a list (cos when you write for me, you write for you, yes? No separation!)

Ok, this isn't going to be easy, but I'll do my best to explain what keeps happening.

You want to know places or ways that a self exists, everywhere and in every way, but then nowhere and not at all.

To elucidate, since shortly after this thread began, I'm in a kind of "fuzzy" place, sometimes quite literally, as my vision is so relaxed that it's, well, fuzzy, but not blurred or interfered with hmmmm, soft? Also, it isn't just a knowing but also a felt sense of free fall, "me, I, self" and all those pronouny words have nowhere to hit, kinda like throwing sand at a fishing net. This is accompanied by a sense of self, that I feel is just momentum and that I think is slowly getting more and more transparent.

Then I'll be hit with some realization, that just pushes me over the edge and there seems to be not even a hint of self anywhere. There's ffreedom for a few hours, but then a relapse. When that happens life is absolutely unbearable because I don't relapse back to fuzzy world, I relapse to a place before fuzzyness existed, when there was a very strong sense of being me. Do you remember how much it sucks to be someone Odemira?

Ok, from the top.

Sitting here, I feel a sense of me. It consists of nothing but hmmmm how can I describe it? How to describe what doesn't exist? I can imagine a frog with ears, but this is harder. There is a physical component, a contraction, (very subtle) that seems to move around. The rest is just thought, assumption. It has no material core, it's just not there. And the physical stuff is just that, a contraction, not me. I can't find a me at all, I never have.

This is very simple, there is no self to be found.

During the last "realization" there was a very clear seeing that thought's were just happening, not to me, not in my head, not in any defined space, just happening. Now thoughts seem to be in my head again. Also, it was seen that I had been trying to get rid of Dave, but that wasn't needed anymore. Dave was seen to be real, but real as a fiction, a character in a movie, completely harmless, take it or leave it, a non entity.

I remember the shift happened when I looked, with my eyes, not through my mind. It was SO obvious that I had not been LOOKING at the world, but looking at thoughts about the world. The difference was as subtle as subtle can be, and at the same time the biggest difference that could be. I LOOKED at the world and there wasn't a me at all, just what was. And it was all perfect, not in a heaveny nirvanay angely way, just in a shoulder shruggery, "it's all fine" kinda way. I remember thinking that "this is it" the shift had happened, and that there was NO WAY it could ever go away, because it was just so obvious, and had been there all along. Pure disbelief the following morning when "I" woke up. Oh yes, also what was part of the realization, was a seeing that a sense of "me" wasn't proof of such. I might have got glimpses of "me" but I simply did NOT believe it was real, there was a sort of absolute knowing that Dave was a story, real, but just a story. Real like the thought of a frog with a beard thought is real. I think belief was a HUGE part of the realization, I remember feeling that at the time. It all seems like it was years ago.

Now I'm left thinking how to get it back, when I know that thinking is what is in the way!

Tell me all the places or ways in which you think you as a self exist, and where you already have no doubt that it does not exist. Write me a list (cos when you write for me, you write for you, yes? No separation!)

I don't know how to approach writing a list, because I don't "think" a self exists. Here's a doubt that just came up though. Just because I can't find a self, doesn't mean there isn't one there does it? It seems late in the day to have a doubt like that, but there ya go =\

Wow! where did THAT come from?

CRAP!

Anxious for your response =\

Dave.

[odemira]

Hi Dave,

This conversation is so long you're beginning to feel like an old friend

:))

I bet you've had days when you wake up, and drift back to sleep, doze awhile, wake up again, doze, wake, turn over, doze ..... and then at some point you're fully awake. You've been waking and dozing in this 'gateless gate' process too. Perfectly normal, because it's what's happening. Some people don't do the dozing, they just wake up - but that's just another story, it's not what's happening here. Here there's waking and dozing.

The only suffering is caused when 'you' say 'This state is IT, awake!', and then 'you' say 'OH CRAP, this state is NOT it. I'm asleep again.' Believe the thought, and it's created the 'I' again. Thank the thought and let it pass by and it floats away.

Can a state stay the same? Or is there a continual flux? Asleep, dozing, what is present in all states?

I remember the shift happened when I looked, with my eyes, not through my mind. It was SO obvious that I had not been LOOKING at the world, but looking at thoughts about the world. The difference was as subtle as subtle can be, and at the same time the biggest difference that could be. I LOOKED at the world and there wasn't a me at all, just what was. And it was all perfect, not in a heaveny nirvanay angely way, just in a shoulder shruggery, "it's all fine" kinda way. I remember thinking that "this is it" the shift had happened, and that there was NO WAY it could ever go away, because it was just so obvious, and had been there all along.

You've crossed the gate without a doubt, definitely seen it. Once seen, never forgotten. And always reaccessible - you've described how above. (Lol, no heavenly nirvanay angely way - that's just the sales pitch for selling all those books and satsangs!)

'You' can't force this, because there is no 'you' to force it. So, dozing happens, waking happens, dozing happens. The difference now is that you know what it's like to be awake. And deconditioning keeps on happening postgate, more beliefs and stories fall away.

I don't know how to approach writing a list, because I don't "think" a self exists.

From what you described of what was seen when the shift happened, you looked and saw there was no 'you' at all. So we don't really need to start from the top at all!

Dave, there's a choice here - either I can stay guiding you as this waking/dozing/waking process goes on, or you can answer our final questions, and join in with our postgate groups, which support us in the deepening of 'this'.
Your call.

with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Hi Odemira,

I bet you've had days when you wake up, and drift back to sleep, doze awhile, wake up again, doze, wake, turn over, doze ..... and then at some point you're fully awake. You've been waking and dozing in this 'gateless gate' process too. Perfectly normal, because it's what's happening. Some people don't do the dozing, they just wake up - but that's just another story, it's not what's happening here. Here there's waking and dozing.

I have days like that every day, -a wonderful benefit of working evenings :) - And yes I agree, that's exactly how I feel about it. I'm not concerned about "not getting it" anymore, just the pain of the me coming back is pretty puke inducing, but it is what it is, and there's no way to control it anyway :)

The only suffering is caused when 'you' say 'This state is IT, awake!', and then 'you' say 'OH CRAP, this state is NOT it. I'm asleep again.' Believe the thought, and it's created the 'I' again. Thank the thought and let it pass by and it floats away.

Yes, I see that very clearly! It's SO obvious.

Can a state stay the same? Or is there a continual flux? Asleep, dozing, what is present in all states?

No a state is not permanent. What is present in all states is whatever is happening right here, right now, that's all there ever is!

You've crossed the gate without a doubt, definitely seen it. Once seen, never forgotten. And always reaccessible - you've described how above. (Lol, no heavenly nirvanay angely way - that's just the sales pitch for selling all those books and satsangs!)

Agreed!

'You' can't force this, because there is no 'you' to force it. So, dozing happens, waking happens, dozing happens. The difference now is that you know what it's like to be awake. And deconditioning keeps on happening postgate, more beliefs and stories fall away.

:))

Dave, there's a choice here - either I can stay guiding you as this waking/dozing/waking process goes on, or you can answer our final questions, and join in with our postgate groups, which support us in the deepening of 'this'.
Your call.

It's been a wonderful experience, but we're just going to be going around in circles while the inevitable unfolds in it's own sweet time. Might as well put your energy to better use and let you go!

Thanks Odemira, you're a wonderful human being! <3

Gimme the questions!

Dave :)

[odemira]

Thanks Dave, it's been a pleasure!!

Here's the questions - please take your time, answer them at length, just let it flow!

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? How about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this? Describe in detail.
4) How do you know this seeing is for real?
5) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Hi Odemira,

To answer....

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? How about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?

"Me" is just a word, it does't exist other than as a word or a thought. It has no shape or form. It never existed other than as a word or thought. "Me", "self", "I", are all the same, they don't exist as anything but words or thoughts that point to something that doesn't exist. When the erroneous idea of a separate self is seen through, the only thing that remains is "everything", as oneness. The mind abstracts "things" out of oneness, but that's just a mental exercise. Direct seeing only ever saw one life happening. Like waking up from a dream, only to wake up again from that dream, the illusion feels real until it's examined.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

The illusion of a separate self is just that, an illusion. I believe it probably arose quite innocently as the human race evolved, and needed to communicate in more meaningful ways. E.g. In a small group of humans that rely on each other in numbers for survival, it probably works better to say "Hey that's "MY" chicken, keep your hands off" than to club the other guy and take out one of the hunting party. So the words I, me,
self, mine, yours, theirs, etc. became the center of culture, and everyone started to think of "me" as something real.
So as kids we're taught separation as a necessity, for ease of communication. But no one tells us than the words I, me, mine, etc. are just communication aids because they don't know any better, and we get suckered in like everyone else. Once established in a child's mind, the illusion becomes a self replicating monster, life becomes a meditation on "being me" as all our thoughts come back to and strengthen the belief in the same illusory center.

3) How does it feel to see this? Describe in detail.

There isn't a "full realization" here (whatever THAT means) but to know the truth is enough. Everything is unfolding in it's own time, as it always has. In "my" case there hasn't been a big pop, more a series of small pops and gradual dissolution. In clear seeing everything is what it is, it can't be better, that would be impossible. Only thought can make what is seem not enough through seeking something that doesn't exist, trying to be somewhere that doesn't exist.

Everything is fine :)

4) How do you know this seeing is for real?

When it's pointed out exactly how this fiction comes about, the truth becomes SO obvious. The mind can come in and complain that it doesn't like the truth, but inevitably that's just mind stuff, the truth is the truth and no amount of conditioning has a foot to stand on in the face of it.

5) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

I would start by saying that I'm not interested in getting into any philosophical arguments, that THEY have to look for themselves to check the validity of everything. Then I would hit them with what turned me around when I first heard Ilona say "There is no you, you don't exist, you never did, check it out". After years of seeking, that statement is SO powerful, from there I would follow their lead as you guys do.

Thanks Odemira <3

Dave :)

[odemira]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your answers. Can you tell me what difference the seeing through the illusion of the 'I' has made in how you feel, in how everyday life is for you?

with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Good morning Odemira,

Thanks for your answers. Can you tell me what difference the seeing through the illusion of the 'I' has made in how you feel, in how everyday life is for you?

Life is pretty much the same. My experience seems to be deepening rapidly now, no fireworks, but a fast dissolution. I guess fear hasn't a place to stand now, it doesn't seem as prevalent and when it does arise it's seen through pretty quickly. Fear is actually harmless and useless now, it's just a thought and a physical sensation. And if a truck is heading towards me there is no fear at all, just a body moving more quickly ;)

More importantly though, there's a relaxation, not waiting for something all the time to make it all better. It is what it is, and that's fine. Sunshine is warm, rain is wet, clouds do the floaty, appeary/dissapeary thing that clouds do, thoughts come, a body moves, all just life happening. Every day the idea of a me outside of a word becomes more absurd, unbelievable. How could it have been so hard to let go? because there never was anything to let go of lol! When identification comes, all that's needed is to open the eyes, and LOOK and POW!! It just IS. Sitting looking is a wonderful pastime...... hmmmm, but then it always has been :)

There's no need to save the world now, lemmings jump off cliffs, cancer kills it's host, egos are insanely doing the same .... so it is! Everything always works out when you don't fight it, and all "my" opinions ever did was re-invent the idea of a self anyway, the cause of all the crap that's going down :)

Life is wonderfully simple, couches are hammocks, friends, sunshine, autumn, and good red wine, are all the most precious gifts ......... Ahhhh!


Dave :)

[Dave]

Odemira,

Just to add to that last post. Life is different now in that seeking is falling away. This is all there is!

Dave :)