Wondering...

[LizLibU]

Can you say with 100% certainty that there is no inherent self

I cannot find an inherent self. That is the difference- I am actually looking, experiencing, going with the evidence I find.

How is everyday life? Is there a sense of self there trying to control, think, intend, and so on?

A sense of self is not showing up to control, think or intend. I notice that in close interactions that some reactivity can arise. I am more likley to just let it be there. In my intimate relationship "I" can still think "she" is doing something to "me". Last night sensation came and emotion was added to it and it ook my body a little while to calm down and disentangle. The difference was I didn't think "I" was doing it- it was just happening.

Have there been any notable shifts since we started?

More neutrality, more gap time- seeing thoughts arise- not the same need to react, more openness and ease/presence, more embedded sensing the interconnection, more slowing down, relaxing and noticing, checking to see what is really going on, noticing sensation and emotion with less grab or concern, less urgency, more checking with my body for next movements, and allowing my mind to do what it does without adding extra.

[Bluejay]

A sense of self is not showing up to control, think or intend. I notice that in close interactions that some reactivity can arise. I am more likley to just let it be there. In my intimate relationship "I" can still think "she" is doing something to "me". Last night sensation came and emotion was added to it and it ook my body a little while to calm down and disentangle. The difference was I didn't think "I" was doing it- it was just happening.

This is normal. Usually the next step after the inherent self falls is reactivity inquiry. Seeing that there is no doer, thinker, feeler is the first step.

More neutrality, more gap time- seeing thoughts arise- not the same need to react, more openness and ease/presence, more embedded sensing the interconnection, more slowing down, relaxing and noticing, checking to see what is really going on, noticing sensation and emotion with less grab or concern, less urgency, more checking with my body for next movements, and allowing my mind to do what it does without adding extra.

Fantastic!

Let's look at responsibility.

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.

Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side.

Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground and so on?

Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where 'Liz' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are color preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look cool for a certain person) etc.

Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life?

Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which 'Liz' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

Enjoy :)

[LizLibU]

The water flowing down the mountain-
Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground and so on?

No- it does not. I can sense that. It is all the same water flowing.

Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

I can feel that there are shifts and changes- ever-changing. Always different.

1. Can you find anywhere where 'Liz' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

I cannot find an autonomous 'Liz' who intervenes. She seems to just be here, moving as she does. When I feel her as the water, she is part of the overall flow, just here.

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are color preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look cool for a certain person) etc.

Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life?

It just seems to be happening, the natural flow of all things that have led to this being the next thing arising.

Can you find someone somewhere?

I cannot find someone somewhere.

3. Can anything be found for which 'Liz' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

This is a good question. I can feel the mind hook of the word "responsible", the feeling in the stomach of what I associate with a 'responsible Liz'. Even with those sensations present, I cannot find the thing that 'Liz' is responsible for. I can sense that there is not a "to what" and" for what" that this 'Liz' is beholden to/responsible for.

[Bluejay]

This is a good question. I can feel the mind hook of the word "responsible", the feeling in the stomach of what I associate with a 'responsible Liz'. Even with those sensations present, I cannot find the thing that 'Liz' is responsible for. I can sense that there is not a "to what" and" for what" that this 'Liz' is beholden to/responsible for.

It may help to unpack this a bit.

Responsibility can happen, or not, but is there an independent entity that decides to be responsible or not, or does it happen like the stream (dependent on genetics, personality, upbringing, weather, and everything else)?

We haven't explored time yet, so let's do that now.

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if it started at all) far in the past and advances to the future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and moving into the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began? How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

Is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Enjoy! :)

[LizLibU]

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

No- all just now.

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

No- it is all just the event of now.

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

It is not moving. The present moment is still.

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began? How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

I cannot find a moment/a point where 'this moment' began. It doesn't really last any length of time. There is no way to tell where the 'now' starts or ends.

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

The 'now' never really becomes the past. The 'past' cannot be found in actual experience.

Is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

There is not an actual experience of 'time'. I can only reference 'time' from thoughts about what has come 'before' or thoughts about what will come 'later'.

[Bluejay]

All sounds great. :)

Would you like to answer the final questions to wrap up our conversation here at LU?

Or is there something that is unclear, or that you have questions about?

You may find this video on integration interesting: https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

[LizLibU]

Thank you. The video was helpful.

These are the takeaways I received:

“Live the day being aware of what is here- all can be welcomed.”

It’s interesting to explore the mind & emotions when you know that they are not you.

Rest in Being- holding attention in the heart or belly, noticing the spaciousness & peace that is always here.
There are no doubts, no questions, no problems to solve.

Notice thoughts, behaviors, & emotional patterns.

Question beliefs.

Let go of the need to understand or the need to control experience. Do not take things too seriously.

Give yourself space & time to feel what wants to be felt & while you are in process, be kind & gentle. Bring the light of awareness to the dark, lifeless, ignored, & denied places.

Would you like to answer the final questions to wrap up our conversation here at LU?

Yes, I would love to answer the final questions.

[Bluejay]

It’s interesting to explore the mind & emotions when you know that they are not you.

Yes, absolutely. Using something like KI is much easier without identification with every thought and emotion.

I'll post the final questions in the next post.

[Bluejay]

Here are the final questions. Take your time, and if you have any questions, let me know.

Enjoy!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[LizLibU]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The separate self is an idea/experience that sets in around 18 months- "I" am separate from my primary caregiver, I am separate from everything- the response "you" give "me" doesn't meet my need of being met. "I" feel separate and in opposition to a perceived "you" that threatens a "me".

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

To feel/see this is sobering- it is simplifying.There is a sense of ubiquitousness- more ease, less reactivity. “I” notice more gaps. “I” am not as likely to defend. When sensations arise that the body registers as a separate "me", “I” slow down, “I” feel what the mind tells me is a need to react and check to see what is happening in my actual experience.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Actual experiencing- actually looking again and again is what pushed me over. Sensing what is - separating out the mental constructions and habits.

5)Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Decisions arise. I retroactively decide "I" chose how to proceed. For example what "I" decided to cook for dinner or how "I" chose to respond to a text from a friend. Dinner making and texting happen.

Describe intention & give examples from experience

.Intention is an overlay- a construction I add to reinforce the idea of a "self" with agency and autonomy. "I" intended to be a good parent and introduce my child to beauty and culture so "I" took him to the Japanese Garden. We just ended up there and beauty or culture was received or not.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

"I" believe "I" am free to choose what I want to do, how to spend my time when in fact many factors lead me to be interested or drawn toward whatever it is that draws my attention. "I" might believe "I" can do anything "I" want but there is no "me" choosing. In actuality, many things have been happening and continue to happen. Retroactively, “I” believe "I" freely chose/made things happen.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

There are no choices. "I" seemingly choose yet no real choices are available. My body does what is does and choices are made. "I" get hungry and bring food with me and pull over to the side of the road to eat it.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

"I" want to believe "I" have control. When "I" watch "I" see it is all happening. "I" cannot control how someone responds or what someone thinks. "I" cannot decide to make something happen.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

Things happen based on momentum that began way before "I" came on the scene. "I" don't know how anything happens!

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

"I" am not responsible for anything. Things happen and "I" might take credit for them but there is no one there. I want to believe “I” am responsible. “I” want something to do, to exist.

6) Anything to add?

Even though there is a knowing that there no separate self, the underlying belief of not being good enough and doubting has re-emerged. “I” notice that it can be hard to just stay with the sensations when the labels associated with what is happening are not “positive” ones. What is really happening? “I” don’t like what is happening. I sense the allure or addictiveness of my unpleasant feelings about myself- there is a familiarity but it doesn't feel like "I" am choosing this either.

[Bluejay]

Thanks for the answers, Liz!

I'll now share them with other guides to see if they have questions.

Even though there is a knowing that there no separate self, the underlying belief of not being good enough and doubting has re-emerged. “I” notice that it can be hard to just stay with the sensations when the labels associated with what is happening are not “positive” ones. What is really happening? “I” don’t like what is happening. I sense the allure or addictiveness of my unpleasant feelings about myself- there is a familiarity but it doesn't feel like "I" am choosing this either.

This is to be expected. What tends to emerge after seeing through the illusion of self is reactivity. Emotional material and conditioning bubbles up to the surface.

I don't know if I shared these two videos:

1. https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

2. https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

[Bluejay]

No one had any questions, so we're done here. It has been great guiding you :)

I want to leave you with a few things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj3-Nn2nXL8 - What's Next? - A video from Ilona.

https://www.simplytheseen.com/explore-each-fetter.html - Great resource if you want to explore the next layer of selfing. In your case it would be fetters 4 & 5.

https://perfectlyokay.org/ - A free community that has an excellent 10 fetters group that meets up almost every week. They also have recordings from previous meetings that are excellent. Instructions on how to join are on the homepage.

Doubt - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTyUspd7c3c - This is an excellent video to watch right away. Since you're familiar with KI, it will be no surprise that doubt is a landing, so look at the core emotion that is avoided there.

And if you have any questions, you can always email or PM me through my profile here on the forum.

You should also receive an invitation to the LU FB group.

Let me know if you have any questions :)

[LizLibU]

Thank you for all of this. I am grateful for all of these resources.

[Bluejay]

Excellent. And again, any questions now or in the future, feel free to reach out :)