So close yet so far away

[Orian]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand the concept of no self and sometimes think I get glimpses of what that might be like. As with most people, my entire life has been based off a separate self and it’s not letting go easily. When I think I might be getting close to letting the belief go a fear arises. If I’m not myself then who am I & how would I function in the world?

What are you looking for at LU?
I’m looking for some clarity, guidance, and someone to actually talk to about this shift in perception. There is only so much I can get from books and YouTube. Do people really achieve this state of being and is it worth all the effort? I’m not looking for all of my problems to disappear or to feel happy all the time. I just want to fully experience life, be present, and let the world unfold without attempting to control anything.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I’m honestly not sure what to expect from a guided conversation. I have no specific expectations. I just want to work with someone that is honest and kind hearted. I would like to hear about someone else's experience.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I grew up as a nondenominational Christian and it always felt wrong to me. When I learned about the Catholic religion I ran away from all religion for some time. I found Buddhism a few years ago and it felt right and resonated with me. I have read most of Eckart Tolle’s and Micheal Singers teaching. Angelo Dilullo’s book Awake introduced me to the notion that I might be able to awaken, that maybe it’s not just for special beings.
I was interested in all of this with a nonchalance curiosity until February of this year. A loss in a close friend group drove me to take this seriously. I have been relentless in seeking for about seven months now. Reading every book and watching every YouTube video I can get my hands on. I attempt to practice presents throughout every day as much as humanly possible. Light meditation and yoga are included when I’m able to.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Marcus1144]

Hi Orian,

Would you like to be guided here?

Happy to help.

I request three things:
1) Your willingness to be honest and courageous in your answering.
2) Your focus and commitment to the questioning, despite any discomfort that may arise.
3) Your commitment to keep the momentum going in this exchange and answer within 48 hours of my posting.

Let me know your sense if you'd like to progress?

Love.

Marcus

[Orian]

Hello Marcus,

Thank you for responding to my post. I would be grateful for some guidance and agree to your requests. I look forward to working with you.

Amy

[Marcus1144]

That’s great Amy.

Do you have a good idea about how to use this forum and have you read the guidance notes about this forum?

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not"
‪http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041‬

If your answer is going to be a long one it is best to copy/paste into word or notes app, as sometimes the website can crash and you can lose what you've written before posting.

I’m drawn to bring into the conversation your fear and resistance.

There is, has never been and never will be a separate self.

Read that line above.

Meditate on it a bit.

Tell me what happens in your experience.

Be intimate in your writing, honest, innocent.

Be cautious to not use language, terms or references that are not coming from the heart of your experience.

And I shall do the same.

Thanks for your trust.

Let’s let this mystery of conversation unfold.

Marcus

[Orian]

The first thought that immediately jumped in my mind when I read your statement was “that’s a crazy idea, I’m I crazy? I certainly can’t talk to anyone else about this, my family will think I’ve lost it.”

Thoughts throughout the day, “I’ve always deeply believed the saying that we are spiritual beings having a human experience. What if it’s not spiritual beings but one entity having many experiences at once? Could that be? Is that what non-duality means?”

During meditation I concentrate on my breath. My thoughts slow and I get pressure between my eyes. Thoughts that arise “If I’m not this person, what am I? Everything is essentially made from the elements created by stardust so how could anything be separate, how could there be a self? But I’m not that table over there, I’m the person that’s facilitating the human experience that consciousness is having. No, wait, I’m supposed to be consciousness itself, having the experience. Oh boy, I’m just going to breathe now” I continue on, watching my breath and seeing the beauty in the flame flickering from my candle.

[Marcus1144]

Great,

Good to hear more from your experience.

I like to get to know where the guidee is coming from a bit before getting more direct.

Your words are helpful in building a picture so write to your hearts content, but make every word count.

So lets’ explore a bit more.

Can you tell me what a concept is?

When you mention the ‘chair’ in your last post, could it be that this is a concept?

Does experience need a someone to experience it?

Thanks :)

Marcus

[Orian]

A concept is just an idea. Made up by thoughts. Thoughts are auto generated from the human brain, I’ve been practicing not believing or listening to them. So a concept is not real, just something made up by the brain?

Would a chair be a concept? Well, yes, the label was certainly made up but the actual chair itself? I can feel the chair in my direct experience. I can see it, sit in it, touch it. So I guess the label is a concept but the chair can be experienced as a real object.

I think experience does need someone to experience it. Otherwise the experience can’t happen.

Side note: when I get the glimpses I mentioned at the beginning, it’s like a million pounds has been lifted off me. It’s such a relief that it makes me want to cry. Is this how you feel all the time?

[Marcus1144]

Hi Amy!

Thanks for your responses!

I think experience does need someone to experience it. Otherwise the experience can’t happen.

I’m curious. Can you please tell me a little more about this someone? And can you tell me why there needs to be a someone for experience to happen?

Side note: when I get the glimpses I mentioned at the beginning, it’s like a million pounds has been lifted off me. It’s such a relief that it makes me want to cry. Is this how you feel all the time?

Can you tell me what you think will happen when those glimpses become seeing? How is your life going to change? Do you have any fears? Do you have any hopes?

A fundamental part of what is being shown here is to differentiate between what is real and what is imagined.

During this guiding it’s important that we are referring to direct experience.

Reference to belief, concept, assumption, knowledge, memory, teachings is not encouraged, but reference to direct experience is encouraged - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts.

Marcus

[Orian]

I apologize for the delay, I’m struggling to know how to answer. The feeling associated with that is observed as racing thoughts and tension in my neck and head.

Can you please tell me a little more about this someone?

The someone I refer to is the body that allows me to feel experiences. The senses coming though are felt by this body.

And can you tell me why there needs to be a someone for experience to happen?

Without a body how would I feel warmth on my skin or see the green in the leaves or taste an apple?

Can you tell me what you think will happen when those glimpses become seeing? How is your life going to change? Do you have any fears? Do you have any hopes?

If the glimpses become seeing there would be a lightness to living, a change in perspective, living just happening. But I don’t know anyone personally who has been through this. My observed thoughts question if it’s real and that makes my body feel heavy.

[Marcus1144]

Appreciate your referencing body sensations to check validity of your thoughts. That’s good.

The someone I refer to is the body that allows me to feel experiences.

Okay this is a really good place to zoom in. Why does a body (a word to describe infinite processes and apparent phenomena) need something called a ‘me’ to function? Can a body operate free of a ‘someone’.

Can you see there an assumption being made here in your words that a body is a someone? Is that true?

Without a body how would I feel warmth on my skin or see the green in the leaves or taste an apple?

So if your refer back to the question, I didn’t ask why there needs to be a body? I asked why there needs to be a someone? Can you see that these two words aren’t necessarily interchangeable.

When resistance arises to the questions, simply notice it, we don’t need to force anything, just stay curious to what come up and continue to be truthful when speaking to your experience.

There’s lots of ideas popping up this side.

Note this is a discovery process for me too, we unravel the truth together, from within, rather than from above, intimate, direct, unravelling, every moment anew, forever fresh, nothing is known, simply present to what is here.

Thanks

Marcus

[Marcus1144]

Apologies, I’ve quoted the wrong sentence in the last post, see correction.

Appreciate your referencing body sensations to check validity of your thoughts. That’s good.

The someone I refer to is the body that allows me to feel experiences.

Okay this is a really good place to zoom in. Why does a body (a word to describe infinite processes and apparent phenomena) need something called a ‘me’ to function? Can a body operate free of a ‘someone’.

Can you see there an assumption being made here in your words that a body is a someone? Is that true?

Without a body how would I feel warmth on my skin or see the green in the leaves or taste an apple?

So if your refer back to the question, I didn’t ask why there needs to be a body? I asked why there needs to be a someone? Can you see that these two words aren’t necessarily interchangeable.

When resistance arises to the questions, simply notice it, we don’t need to force anything, just stay curious to what come up and continue to be truthful when speaking to your experience.

There’s lots of ideas popping up this side.

Note this is a discovery process for me too, we unravel the truth together, from within, rather than from above, intimate, direct, unravelling, every moment anew, forever fresh, nothing is known, simply present to what is here.

Thanks

Marcus

[Orian]

Thank you for your time and patience with the resistance I’m apparently holding onto. One baby step at a time.

Why does a body (a word to describe infinite processes and apparent phenomena) need something called a ‘me’ to function? Can a body operate free of a ‘someone’.

The body doesn’t need a someone to function. (Thoughts are racing by quickly, noticing tension in my shoulders and hands. Making an effort to relax and concentrate on one thought at a time.) The heart beats without a someone, cells with millions of functions perform their jobs without a someone, breath moves in and out without a someone. Bodies can amazingly function on their own. I’ve always been in awe of the body’s abilities.

My thoughts get stuck on the mind. It works on it’s own but how would decisions be made without “someone” making them? …………..or would it make decisions automatically?

Throughout my day I keep a curious eye on my actions. Would they just happen without me directing them? Maybe it’s possible. My muscles relax when I think of the possibility of decisions making themselves. I never noticed how tense I held my neck.

Can you see there an assumption being made here in your words that a body is a someone? Is that true?

I can see that these two words are not interchangeable, the body is not a someone.

[Marcus1144]

Great!

Good to feel your genuine curiosity and openness about investigating the nature of experience. That’s all that’s needed here. Patience is abundant here.

Throughout my day I keep a curious eye on my actions. Would they just happen without me directing them?

Can you tell me in your direct experience, how a decision is made, and where the director of decisions comes in? What is being spoken of here when you mention ‘me directing’ Is that your mind? Does a mind need a someone? Is ‘mind’ and ‘someone’ interchangeable?

[Orian]

Can you tell me in your direct experience, how a decision is made, and where the director of decisions comes in?

Anytime I look for a director of decisions, nothing can be found. It seems as though decisions just come up through thought. This makes me wonder why I spend so much time trying to make the right decisions.

My thoughts bring up very specific questions to counter this idea. What makes my decision to save money when someone down the street decides to spend all their money? What stops me from wanting to do drugs but someone else tries them and gets hopelessly addicted? When my thoughts are asking, it’s more curiosity than anything else. Nothing feels off with how my body feels when asking these questions. No tension or anything.

Maybe if decisions are made without the noise of the mind they are made with the love and openness that is consciousness itself?

Does a mind need a someone?

The mind most definitely does not need a director, it comes up with the craziest things without any prompting and out of nowhere.

Is ‘mind’ and ‘someone’ interchangeable?

The “mind” and “someone” could be interchangeable because they are both made up ideas? Because we are not a someone and not our thoughts? This one stumps me a little.

[Marcus1144]

Great!

Let's zoom in a bit on this.

Don't answer all the questions below, but spend some time reading them and tell me what they bring up in your experience. Intimate, honest, no need to get anything 'right'.

What makes my decision to save money when someone down the street decides to spend all their money?

Curiosity is fine and welcome and needed here.

However can you see that in this seeing, there is unknowing?

Do you understand what I say when I say seeing?

The curiosity that arises to counter the simplicity of this, free of conceptual overly.

Can be thoughts habitual attempt to understand this seeing, which cannot be understood in that way.

What would it be to not know?

To live as this non-dual mystery?

What would it be to have no control over whether free spending or careful saving appeared?

That all you were and ever could be was this seeing.

That perception has no perceiver?

That thought has no thinker?

That choice has no chooser?

That life is free of separation.

There is no-one who is separate.

Please just read that and tell me what happens in your experience.

There’s also an invitation to bring this inquiry to your everyday experience and report here any unfolding happenings if relevant.

With love

Marcus