Seeking help getting to the exit door

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Darrell
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby Darrell » Fri Jul 28, 2023 7:20 pm

Witnessing life takes no time at all, watch it through your day. You cant fail because you are life.
First, just checking in. Still here, so to speak. Second, something significant seems to have happened. Maybe significant is the wrong word. Two Mondays ago, there was a moment of clarity. I'd been doing a lot of inquiry. As much as I could remember to do, along with trying to keep the attention in the body. So with near relentless trying to locate where there might be an "I", "me" or any sort of thing (As Christiane Michleberger put it recently, like you're trying to find your keys) in a moment, this sense of 'hereness' this sense that gives rise to what I describe as the subtle sense of ownership of experience, it was perfectly clear, totally obvious, that there wasn't any central agent here, putting itself at the center of things. Never has been, never will be.

for the first week after that, reactivity was severely reduced, sometimes gone altogether. We even had a *very* serious family situation the day after this moment of clarity (two Tuesdays ago) and any emotions or feelings that arose were allowed to be felt, and pass on their own. All "I" did was to make sure I didn't try to defend "me" and didn't try to blame or find fault with the others involved. It was quite remarkable, as this normally would have been such a huge blow, that it would have hurt like hell, and continued to be felt for days after. That didn't happen.

so while it is still very clear that there isn't a 'someone' or any sort of 'thing' here, things have also sort of normalized. The reactivity is still diminished, and when it does happen, is usually short lived. But things feel very normal or ordinary now, yet if I look, or should say, when looking happens, it can be seen that that sense of some sort of something substantial here at center isn't there.

Yet at the same time, there seem to be habits of mind. If I say, for example, "I will help you in a moment" in that moment, there's sort of a buy in to the idea or sense of someone who will help someone else. That is to say, the sense of that once assumed entity not being there, isn't always at the center of awareness/consciousness/attention. I assume that's normal. With the fetter model in mind, I suppose that doesn't change until fetter 8 is dissolved/broken/whatever.

I think what I'm trying to say is, that even thought it is very clear in an intuitive way, that there's no such thing as "I", "me" a doer, thanks to all the myths and misconceptions about waking up, there appear to be some unrealistic ideas and expectations about what things are like, how they are, once you see that the assume 'you' isn't real, isn't there and is just a thought and/or mental impression.

I can answer the questions if you like, if you think that is appropriate/warranted. Let me know.

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MerlinC
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby MerlinC » Sat Jul 29, 2023 3:12 pm

Very good that's it, I'll give you the questions in a bit but first I want you to walk around with it go to nature and sense it for what it is feel everything, notice thoughts coming and going their fleeting nature that sometimes not so fleeting but hard and stiff natures. Awareness is its detergent, but we have to deal with residual hurts we had but now your on your way. Nature and you are one go live in it. Tell me your experience when ready.
A buddhist monk walks in to a pizza shop and asks the pizza guy, make me one with everything....

What you are and where you are is the samething.

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Darrell
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby Darrell » Sun Jul 30, 2023 5:51 pm

Very good that's it, I'll give you the questions in a bit but first I want you to walk around with it go to nature and sense it for what it is feel everything, notice thoughts coming and going their fleeting nature that sometimes not so fleeting but hard and stiff natures. Awareness is its detergent, but we have to deal with residual hurts we had but now your on your way. Nature and you are one go live in it. Tell me your experience when ready.
Residual hurts? I've had some things of this nature coming up for a while now, for about eight weeks or so. It seems it was already happening prior to that moment in the chiropractors office. I'll just shorten it to that moment of seeing, for future reference. And these residual hurts still seem to be processing. The consistency of the messages I've been getting from you and various friends and sources in the spiritual communities I'm a member of, is striking. I'm losing my belief in coincidence.

Okay, what do you suggest for "go to nature"? Also, is it normal for the experience and sense of seeing and knowing the truth to become 'normal' and less obvious or conspicuous? I can still see it if I look for it, but it's not grabbing me by the collar, so to speak, and say "Hi! Here I am!" any longer.

As to go to nature, I'll do my best to get out, if that's what's needed. My wife is recovering from a major surgery and I can't leave her alone for very long.

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Darrell
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby Darrell » Sun Jul 30, 2023 6:40 pm

Very good that's it, I'll give you the questions in a bit but first I want you to walk around with it go to nature and sense it for what it is feel everything, notice thoughts coming and going their fleeting nature that sometimes not so fleeting but hard and stiff natures. Awareness is its detergent, but we have to deal with residual hurts we had but now your on your way. Nature and you are one go live in it. Tell me your experience when ready.
Oh, by the way. You sent me the questions before. I have them saved. Just an FYI.

There are a vast number of myths and misconceptions about awakening. I think that has created some confusion and unrealistic expectations as to what this means. Not really sure how to respond/handle these things. I suppose just keeping the attention in the body, to just live in the body and stay in reality is an antidote.

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MerlinC
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby MerlinC » Mon Jul 31, 2023 4:23 pm

Anywhere quiet will do but any place where you won't be bothered, silence makes the mind appearent and is no wonder why people have to put on a radio or the TV, any noise to distract themselves from what they are going through. But this path of seeing and living the truth finding where nature is your actual nature isnt always easy but necessary and completely in your reach. You sound like you are going through a very difficult time and I'm sorry but all these things coming up in you needs to be unbottled and felt, that's why no distractions is important. We can all run off and drink and throw ourselves to the nightlife but it doesn't do anything for seeing no ego and truth of our being not to say you cant do it anytime it's just the rush rush life sweeps us off from stopping to look around. I believe you being in a place like that is no coincidence just as everyone else are in theirs for their growth I know were all on the same journey to truth we just call it looking for happiness but its us were looking for under all the layers. Keep feeling and looking, ask yourself where is that wall in reality? Or that tree? Listion for its answer to you it won't be in words. Make time for reality.
A buddhist monk walks in to a pizza shop and asks the pizza guy, make me one with everything....

What you are and where you are is the samething.

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Darrell
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby Darrell » Mon Jul 31, 2023 7:45 pm

Anywhere quiet will do but any place where you won't be bothered, silence makes the mind appearent and is no wonder why people have to put on a radio or the TV, any noise to distract themselves from what they are going through. But this path of seeing and living the truth finding where nature is your actual nature isnt always easy but necessary and completely in your reach. You sound like you are going through a very difficult time and I'm sorry but all these things coming up in you needs to be unbottled and felt, that's why no distractions is important. We can all run off and drink and throw ourselves to the nightlife but it doesn't do anything for seeing no ego and truth of our being not to say you cant do it anytime it's just the rush rush life sweeps us off from stopping to look around. I believe you being in a place like that is no coincidence just as everyone else are in theirs for their growth I know were all on the same journey to truth we just call it looking for happiness but its us were looking for under all the layers. Keep feeling and looking, ask yourself where is that wall in reality? Or that tree? Listion for its answer to you it won't be in words. Make time for reality.
Well, I don't drink, use drugs*, party, or even have a great social life. But my family life puts near constant demands on me, so it's very easy to get lost in the rush of events here in our home. I really don't mind allowing all this inner material to come up. I've already faced a great deal of really unpleasant stuff. So much so, that I'm a bit surprised to find there was still more. But it also makes sense. It's not easy, but I'm fully willing to do the work. It's better than the alternative - living a lie, and continuing to just live a life of unchecked suffering I create for myself and others (I recognize that although some suffering dropped, awakening doesn't eliminate suffering entirely, it just changes our relationship to that which remains).

I prefer silence, but am having a hard time getting back to meditating. I stopped a few months ago, after meditating since 2004. The last eight years I would sit for two one hour sessions. I'm not trying to regain those two hours, I'd be happy to just be able to sit daily for thirty minutes. Not sure what the resistance is. Maybe I need to try a different approach, but it can be tricky being left alone unless I tell everyone "I'm going to sit for thirty minutes. Call me if you need me, but *don't* need me" So that's why I have been aiming for formal sitting.

Anyway, I am fully willing to feel whatever needs to be felt. I've been getting that same message over and over again and again from various unrelated sources since last February- be in the body and feel fully. That and seek silence. So obviously life is telling me to do this. One other thing. It's sort of interesting that the sense of boundary, where things begin or end at the surface of the skin. That almost completely disappears if I look for a boundary between 'in here' and 'out there' while in the dark.

*In the interest of full disclosure, I used to use psychedelics two to four times a year, but this path seems to have pushed that into the background. That kind of thing hasn't happened since 2021.

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MerlinC
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby MerlinC » Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:42 pm

Well as long as your confronting your fine it's not a race to enlightenment, it's the funniest thing their always seems to be more dark material but then how long has your heart been open to it vs how long you lived for? Time heals all wounds it really does and the peace when you've felt your heavier angers and sadness's fully is really something else. That's why I read a course in miracles every day just so I'm reminded of what I set out to do as if I'd forget though. Helpful to have a voice helping along with the hunch you been following for a very long time that people don't understand. I really believe when Jesus went to the desert for forty days and nights and buddha was facing mara under the bodhi tree they were facing there stuff. Jesus found the holy spirit and buddha found nirvana "sensation" same story if you ask me. We're just next in line to find sensation but remember anywhere you are you can be there with it, only the mind would say you cant but of course your here to know its saying that. Just look out for me thoughts. Life will throw "coincidences" mind blowing ones but people don't really believe that stuff until they see it for themselves but then they are lying to themselves because everybody has a strange story lol. Its spooky for allot of people.
A buddhist monk walks in to a pizza shop and asks the pizza guy, make me one with everything....

What you are and where you are is the samething.

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Darrell
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby Darrell » Mon Aug 07, 2023 11:56 pm

Well as long as your confronting your fine it's not a race to enlightenment, it's the funniest thing their always seems to be more dark material but then how long has your heart been open to it vs how long you lived for? Time heals all wounds it really does and the peace when you've felt your heavier angers and sadness's fully is really something else. That's why I read a course in miracles every day just so I'm reminded of what I set out to do as if I'd forget though. Helpful to have a voice helping along with the hunch you been following for a very long time that people don't understand. I really believe when Jesus went to the desert for forty days and nights and buddha was facing mara under the bodhi tree they were facing there stuff. Jesus found the holy spirit and buddha found nirvana "sensation" same story if you ask me. We're just next in line to find sensation but remember anywhere you are you can be there with it, only the mind would say you cant but of course your here to know its saying that. Just look out for me thoughts. Life will throw "coincidences" mind blowing ones but people don't really believe that stuff until they see it for themselves but then they are lying to themselves because everybody has a strange story lol. Its spooky for allot of people.
You're right, it's not a race. I have felt driven towards it so strongly, believing it would end suffering. Well, that's what we're told, and it does, but that doesn't seem to mean what I thought it meant. Crap is still going to come up. In the 'funny how things work' department, a couple of nights ago, my wife reminded me of something I hadn't thought about for over twenty-five years. There was an incident in my childhood where my older sister and two neighborhood boys perpetrated something I'll gently refer to as "inappropriate" and now this has to be faced. I've glossed it over and passed it off as nothing for all these years. As well, I've been grieving the loss of childhood, and many other things that have been showing up. The weird thing is, I don't remember doing anything to initiate this process, other than starting Pernille Damore's FetterWork. Yet here it is! everything is crawling out of the woodwork.

Nah, it's not spooky. I just got away from it as I got so into my head and thinking. Now I'm being shown it's time to come back from that. I'm pleased that something is making it so clear.

I'm going to paste the answers to the final questions, I'd like to get the thoughts of you, and the others at LU who you share them with. I think that I'd feel better if we made sure to do that, if you don't mind. I'll post them in a separate post.

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Darrell
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby Darrell » Mon Aug 07, 2023 11:59 pm

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? No. There isn’t now, and there wasn’t in the past. There are times where getting lost in thought or getting hooked by an intention it seems as if there is, but it is usually seen quickly that this is not true. It’s just a moment of identification.



2) Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience. It happens as a result of identifying with feelings, emotions, beliefs; mental, emotional and psychological activities/events. There’s a belief that there’s someone at the center of these events. That’s all it is, a belief in the sense of someone being there in the center of this identifying.



Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.
I see the process of identifying happen a good percentage of the time. Quick reactions often get past the attention, but it can still be seen either immediately after, or some time not too long after the buy in to the quick reaction has occurred. There’s a tendency to be less reactive, or reactions happening are more brief when they do occur.




3) How does it feel to see this? It’s really nice. It feels like a taste of freedom.


What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
The difference is the change in reactivity, as well as very strong unwillingness to defend my position when I’m in the wrong, as well as an unwillingness to blame others. Although this isn’t absolute, it shows up frequently, but it’s something that wasn’t present before. There’s also less willingness to discuss ‘spiritual’ matters, especially ‘getting through the gate’, as it just seems like glorifying or helping to shore up a self that is false.
4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’? I was asking where is this “I”, “me” or thing fairly relentlessly. It finally happened in the process of continuing to ask this question, and *really* making a sincere effort to find this “I”, “me” or thing. Finally there was a seeing that this sense of a self here, which seems to give rise to a subtle sense of ownership of experience, was just a mental impression, was just thought and belief, and nothing more.




5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Decision seems to arise in response to something happening in the environment, and that is followed in milliseconds by a sense of claiming ownership of that decision. Intention is basically the same thing. I don’t really see that there is free will. It seems that it’s simply action/reaction or stimulus/response. There is some part of the mind that seems to be in the habit of thinking these things are true, but it isn’t accepted as the reality of the situation. It seems to just be a habit.

Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.
It’s difficult to say how things happen. Things just happen. Most people believe that they think things, and create intentions, and choose to take action, but that’s just the mind claiming ownership of things that seems to happen of its own accord.


b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
There’s the long standing habit of mind to think there’s someone who is responsible for things, but it can be seen when looking directly that there’s not anyone doing anything. There have been moments when something happens, choosing to move my hand, or to say something and seeing that these things are happing from an intention or decision, but that decision or intention is the result of things that happen around us, or from another thought, feeling or emotion. It’s not a matter of someone choosing to do something. The other day something happened that really caused some frustration, and there was a moment of moderate anger. It was not a choice, it wasn’t intended, it just arose in that moment. Then there was a sense of the anger being unwanted or undesirable, and that created a reaction to want to bring that emotion in check. It all happened on its own. Even the feeling of having been ‘wrong’ for ‘getting angry’.

6) Anything to add? Some of these changes, insights, realizations and understandings that resulted from seeing through self are already on the intuitive level. Some of these are seen, or are able to be seen, but seem more intellectual, not as intuitive. Is that normal? Does some of this take longer to sink in, as it were?

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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby MerlinC » Wed Aug 09, 2023 5:05 pm

I just sent them the answers and they will get back to us shortly, I want to add the only escape from suffering is by facing suffering fully ether by feeling fully and allowing the pain that was never digested to be felt and passed or in life by facing obstacles and changing our circumstances which becomes easier and easier when you don't have as much emotional baggage dragging us down. But at least you know the way now. Go and tell as many people what you know and try to help them on their journey when you feel comfortable in talking about it. Because that emotional wealth should not be behind dollar signs and cults it should be common knowledge. You might be thinking, what did I get myself into? but the matter of fact is you are naturally letting go and feeling anyways and always were as for the no self stuff its just to bring ourselves to the truth of where we feel so we can be more consistent at it. If were not dealing we are not as present as we should be because the truth is their never is a time where we are not being present but do we know that experientially? awareness is key and the more you heal the less the mind has to bring up to you and peace will grow and grow but their might be a lot that is going on, you'll find being with everything in you is the remedy to all of it as scary as it may be at the time it can be healed. if you could take it in, you can most certainly let it out. That seems reasonable to me I'm glad you just don't fill up emotional garbage threw the course of a lifetime and then just be stuck with it.
A buddhist monk walks in to a pizza shop and asks the pizza guy, make me one with everything....

What you are and where you are is the samething.

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MerlinC
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby MerlinC » Wed Aug 09, 2023 5:20 pm

Here's a cool video one of the group members thought would help with your last answer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w
A buddhist monk walks in to a pizza shop and asks the pizza guy, make me one with everything....

What you are and where you are is the samething.

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Darrell
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby Darrell » Thu Aug 10, 2023 3:33 pm

Well as long as your confronting your fine it's not a race to enlightenment, it's the funniest thing their always seems to be more dark material but then how long has your heart been open to it vs how long you lived for? Time heals all wounds it really does and the peace when you've felt your heavier angers and sadness's fully is really something else. That's why I read a course in miracles every day just so I'm reminded of what I set out to do as if I'd forget though. Helpful to have a voice helping along with the hunch you been following for a very long time that people don't understand. I really believe when Jesus went to the desert for forty days and nights and buddha was facing mara under the bodhi tree they were facing there stuff. Jesus found the holy spirit and buddha found nirvana "sensation" same story if you ask me. We're just next in line to find sensation but remember anywhere you are you can be there with it, only the mind would say you cant but of course your here to know its saying that. Just look out for me thoughts. Life will throw "coincidences" mind blowing ones but people don't really believe that stuff until they see it for themselves but then they are lying to themselves because everybody has a strange story lol. Its spooky for allot of people.
I re-read this Merlin, and realized I really didn't understand what you meant by "as long as you're confronting, you're fine"

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MerlinC
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby MerlinC » Thu Aug 10, 2023 7:11 pm

Confronting whats inside but yes you cant neglect life ether what happens when we do that? Not good things.
A buddhist monk walks in to a pizza shop and asks the pizza guy, make me one with everything....

What you are and where you are is the samething.

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Darrell
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby Darrell » Mon Aug 14, 2023 6:05 pm

Confronting whats inside but yes you cant neglect life ether what happens when we do that? Not good things.
How would neglecting life happen? What does that look like?

Something that is creating confusion and uncertainty. Things feel normal now. Almost like nothing happened that monday. I mean, if I look, it's pretty obvious there's not a permanent, central "me", but it's not something that is obvious or conspicuous. It's not something that is central to my moment to moment, day to day lived experience. I actually have to look for it to see it.

I'm sure having ideas and expectations about how things would be after the fact, so I don't know if this is a result of pre-conceived ideas, expectations or myths and misconceptions, or if what happened that monday, passing through the gate wasn't what I thought.

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MerlinC
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Re: Seeking help getting to the exit door

Postby MerlinC » Tue Aug 15, 2023 8:26 pm

Just because a person has seen no inherent self in awareness, thoughts and emotions doesnt mean the trash shouldnt be taken out to the bin and other responsibilitys. But your right who would take care of it? The answer would be life and its inteligents but no one is in control but that doesnt mean we dont still operate we kinda just go and do stuff or dont do stuff. We can fall asleep back to egoic nature even or wake up determining by what we believe and stand for if you didnt believe in the truth of being we wouldnt be talking. Some people believe drinking and sex are lifes highest goals so they end up in bars instead of satsung. But are goal is to not distract ourselves from our truth here. I get angry and sad and do stupid things but the healing of those things is more and more by the day because I am hell bent on feeling everything not because I want to feel like a special person but because I know these things are truly just temporary and fall away and another notch of peace happens in my psyche. Its not an over night thing that we become completely still. Your at the stage where you are starting to see the trick, at this time your best friend is nature or your favorite book on the now to condition you to keep looking where your looking from. Thoughts are tricky because we were conditioned to live by them and never question them but isnt it funny we can do that? It means we are outside of them not completely entrenched by them. Thats good news for us. My head was a circus and it was because I never had someone teach me about the importance of feeling and not bottling up or closing myself off from myself. Your getting it all is asked of you in every moment is for you to be their, not having your mind completely take over but when it does watch that to. Youll see that you can live unflinchingly but watch the flinching you havent failed because if you are life where are you going to go? Just watch and listion and feel inside your skin. Hence why the masters lived in caves lol.
A buddhist monk walks in to a pizza shop and asks the pizza guy, make me one with everything....

What you are and where you are is the samething.


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