Seeking a guide please

[mark43]

Ugh, this no-self perspective has returned. I can see that much of what I wrote in the previous post doesn’t make a lot of sense from this way of seeing. It’s amazing how this can get so hidden and forgotten. Does it eventually get easier to “remember”?

[filtah]

I apologize for forgetting to let you know I’d be away from internet connectivity.

No worries Mark.

I’ve been going through a period of somewhat intense emotional reactivity that has caused both myself and my loved ones a bit of anguish

Sounds like quite a storm. It will pass. I don't really know what to say about all this to be honest, but my previous advice stands. Try not to be so hard on yourself. The past is done. The guilt and shame will pass in time. Reactivity runs deep to be honest. Be patient with this and curious about it. Wanting to know it deeply, intimately is the way through the this kind of suffering. I have found Byron Katie's work to be really good at deconstructing beliefs around reactivity. Maybe that will help.

Also, this video Angelo just posted is really good, seems to address where you are at perfectly.

https://youtu.be/5Ec55SyK09g

is this awakening? It sorta feels to me like bypassing as it feels like I’m just trying to escape my experience

Awakening is seeing through the illusion of a separate self. It's essentially a dropping of a belief about what you take yourself to be. That's it. In my experience it's not about knowing what I am, or having the need to define what I am, but rather letting go of a need to know completely, being ok with not knowing, and simply being.

There is an undeniable presence that remains even after I’ve stopped existing as a Mark that owns the thoughts and feelings

Are you saying that the presence owns the thoughts / feelings or Mark? Sorry it's not clear.

Am I not communicating to you right now? If I am, then there has to be a me

Yes the communication is happening. It wouldn't be possible without this presence.
But if you look closely at what this communication actually is, it's just seeing, and then thoughts arising. That is what is actually happening. That is all that is actually happening. Of course there is a story, which is the understanding of all the thinking and that story includes a me and a you and on and on the dream goes. It's just being able to recognise that. There is no inherent meaning in reality.

this just really feels certain. Am I not this presence Phil?

If you were certain of this you would not be asking this question.

I could say yes, but if I am honest, the real answer is I don't know. If I don't know what I am, how can I tell you what you are?

The thing is Mark, you can never find certainty. The best you can ever get is a belief. Belief is inseperable from doubt. Believing you are presence has no value, it can just be a way of bypassing even. If there is identification, the self is hiding in that.

In my experience, awareness, presense, whatever is more primary, more real than any sense or idea of me, but am I that? I don't know. It's not 'me' or what I think I am, that is clear, but what I am, if anything at all is a mystery. There is a freedom in this not knowing when it is genuine. Let go of wanting to know. Let it fall off.

The question you can ask of most value is who cares?
Really - who is it that wants to know themself as presence?

To be direct - does presence itself give a shit about this question?

Does awareness / presence ask anything at all of experience? It is simply what it is.

If there is a seeking to find out, look at that. Is that you? What is it? Can you feel into it? Just look. Just see what is actually here now, that is all that is required.

[filtah]

Hi Mark, we got a bit out of sync there!

It’s amazing how this can get so hidden and forgotten. Does it eventually get easier to “remember”?

The best way to remember is to give up trying to remember!

It really is amazing right?

Maybe this makes more sense now:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w

I've watched it many times and it seems to revel more each time it is a good video, worth coming back to.

I guess it does get easier. I think it's more of a trusting that starts to emerge. The inquiry / looking is always available though. The clarity is amazing when it arises, but it never lasts forever. That's ok though, it doesn't have to. I enjoy it when it's here then let it go, there's no attachment to it. That's how it is here anyway!

[mark43]

Hi Phil.

I've been thinking about what you said in that awakening is just the realization of the absence of a separate self and the dropping of a belief about what I take myself to be. I really don't think I'm there. Perhaps what I've experienced so far is just experiences. I don't seem to have any kind of transformational identity shift. I still very much feel like there's a me here.

To confirm, is the meaning of a separate self just the one that exists in thought? I suppose I see that to some extent. I have to work at it to get there though. Perhaps I understand this just at a conceptual level though? I mean, it makes sense when you break it down:

• There's a person called Mark that is aware. Mark has this thing called a mind that broadcasts thoughts that are almost always about himself. These thoughts are often formed in the first-person. Mark is aware of these thoughts, but he almost always fails to realize they are just thoughts.

I have experienced times where I do seem like I can relax and sort of break out of this feeling of being located in the body and subsequently expand into everything else. I don't know what that is. It is though there is just the seen, the felt, the heard, the thought, etc. I am no longer in the body or behind my eyes. I am not really anywhere. It's like I isn't really a thing anymore. This feels like just an experience and doesn't really remain with me. Is this it?

Sorry, I'm just really unsure where I'm at or whether I should keep working with your pointers, or let you know I guess I've learned what I need to learn. What do you think? I know it must be hard to interpret where I'm at from your position as well, so no worries if you're not sure what to say.

Thanks

[mark43]

Phil,

Last night I watched this video by Angelo. This resonates with me very strongly. He describes the fact that there are two selves: a small one and a big one. He says that oftentimes people get lost in self-inquiry by trying to find that the self doesn’t exist. I have described to you feeling very much like there is a self here. It is this big self Angelo describes. Rupert Spira also takes this approach. I have spent a long time reading and watching his content.

I’m very confused what it means on Liberation Unleashed when Iona says “there is no you”. This is why I keep questioning/trying to interpret what it is I’m experiencing.

Anyways, here is the video:

https://youtu.be/aJmLvD4NaQI

Just thought I’d post this to help explain where I’m at/coming from. Thank you.

[filtah]

Hi Mark,
I watched the video, I've seen this some time ago already, I remember it.

I’m very confused what it means on Liberation Unleashed when Iona says “there is no you”. This is why I keep questioning/trying to interpret what it is I’m experiencing.

No-self, big-self, I AM, awareness, presence, etc. are all just concepts, ideas, thoughts. They are pointers. It's really important to make this crystal clear.

This is becoming a problem for you exactly because you are trying to interpret what it is you are experiencing.

Please try and hold these ideas more lightly. you don't have to know what they mean. Looking for validation for your ideas of what think you are wont be helpful either. Only you can look and see for yourself, and this is what we are trying to do here. To 'exhaust the seeing' as Angelo puts it.

I don't point directly at awareness for example, as in my experience, there is a tendency to identify with this. I've been there.

For example, when a thought arises like: 'oh, i must be awareness then' and this is believed, then nothing has changed, except a new belief has been accumulated. This is how the mind operates. We point to direct experience as a way to see this happening. Every thought is ALWAYS ever just a thought. If you can see that then even the idea of being a separate self will collapse completely. its so ridiculously simple it is laughable when it's seen clearly.

I know exactly what you mean when you talk about this other 'big self' though. It's the loudest thing in the room. it's never absent or separate from any experience. it feels like 'you', but is completely ineffable and formless. it simply is.

It also couldn't care less about what you think or say about it, what you believe about it.
it is completely untouched by all of that, at the same time it embraces it completely.

Instead of trying to understand it - just look at it.

[filtah]

How are you going Mark?

[mark43]

Hey Phil.

I’m going nuts, to be perfectly honest. I am trying so hard to figure things out, or do whatever I can to see that there’s no me. Not being able to see this is becoming quite frustrating.

Watching lots of Angelo videos, reading lots of the LU Enlightenment Quotes app, and meditating.

Suffering is intense, which I suppose is sorta a good thing, as I seem to be getting to a point where I won’t shy away if the fear comes up again. I need for this to end.

As far as insights go, I’ve recently noticed that there’s nothing in experience other than the experience itself. Ie - there’s no me in the experience unless I create the me in thought. I see this, but it hasn’t had any effect at the core.

Are there any other pointer activities you can recommend? I apologize for not commenting earlier, but every question for the thought pointer came back with the same answer (no).

This is all I care about at the moment. I wish I could go live in a cabin in middle of nowhere to see this through.

Sorry if I’m not doing this right Phil.

[filtah]

Mark, it's OK.
I'm with you.

There is no 'not doing this right'.
I've been there with the frustration.

Remember what I said about being relaxed?
Even you said:

I have experienced times where I do seem like I can relax

This is an important one. It was way more important than I realised too. Meditation, or the guided meditations helped me with this.

What we are trying to do is create the right conditions.
You can not 'do' this, like you have learned to do everything else in your life. It's a letting go. What you are looking for is already here.

It's not conceptual at all, so you don't need to figure anything out.

This is so simple, that is why it is overlooked.
Overlooked is a good term here as it means you are looking past something. What you are trying to find, doesn't exist. You will never find it. Just relax, and see what is already here. It's simple.

It's the words appearing in front of you right now.

it's the thought of frustration that says:
' I wish I could go live in a cabin in middle of nowhere to see this through'.

Or its the sound of the refrigerator buzzing,

Or it's the sensations in your chest

or its the feeling of 'no', rejecting 'what is'.

All of these things are simply here until they are not, but it's the 'hereness' which makes them real, not the apparent meaning they give.

Just fall back into that, stay with that. Let go of wanting to know anything at all and stay here, with whatever is already here. Welcome what arises, and let it go, and welcome and let go.

Even the thought that says 'this can't be it, it's too simple'.

That is also it.

Nothing can be different than it already is. Your expectations do not need to be met. Your ideas about what awakening should look like are only ideas, thoughts with no inherent meaning at all.

Awakening is already here Mark, it's been waiting for you right here, to see the whole time.

[filtah]

Mark, here is another pointer exercise as you asked:

Finding the Gap

This exercise has a dual purpose. Firstly, to become aware of each and every though as they appear. Secondly, the careful looking for the gap is an example of how carefully to look when looking for the ‘separate self’.

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day.

Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.

Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or "here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts:

Looking how they come and go, and Observing the short gap between them.

Noticing how the current thought is passing. And waiting for the next thought to come.

Please also do the following exercise:

Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Have fun! Relax - it is the only way to see. Let me know how it goes. How does it feel?

[filtah]

How are you going Mark?

[mark43]

Hi Phil.

Yeah things are progressing. It seems I’m going through a phase where I might be starting to notice how everything is just sort of happening on its own. I guess it’s causing me to question whether or not I’m really in control of anything. I realize this was what a previous pointer activity was trying to get me to notice, and although it didn’t have any effect on me then, the realization does seem to be surfacing now.

I’ve been doing that “finding the gap” activity. It can be quite uncomfortable for some reason to do this. I suppose I feel like I’m trying to assert control over not falling into identification with the thoughts. It feels like something needs to fight off the thoughts. I’ve never really been good at staying present and mindful while having a thought. I always seem to get sucked into them.

I read a lot on the LU Enlightening Quotes app. I find going through it over and over again quite fruitful.

[mark43]

Hi Phil. Kind of uneventful here lately. I’ve been pretty consumed by work and haven’t had much time for this. I do want to get back to regular updates - but I feel like I’ve lost some momentum. Im not sure how much progress I’ve made so far be honest. I’ve felt like I’ve understood what it means for there to be no me at least a couple of times, but it seems like those were just experiences.

I am going to just keep doing the butt chair pointer at least once a day. Hopefully, that will orient me towards the right way of looking.

Thanks

[filtah]

Hi Mark,
thanks for checking in.
Apologies for not being very responsive from this side recently.
Life takes over sometimes!

I do want to get back to regular updates

Even just checking in like this daily can be helpful, even as a reminder for yourself.

I suppose I feel like I’m trying to assert control over not falling into identification with the thoughts. It feels like something needs to fight off the thoughts.

Maybe look at that? the thoughts are already coming by themselves anyway right? Is the trying to do something about them making things worse? How do you know you need to do something about them?

I had a belief that I needed to fix the thinking. I had made the thinking into a problem. When I saw that, I started to let go of controlling the thinking process. This came just before the realisation landed. Ilona helped me see that.
She is doing another free group zoom call on 4th September:

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=8701

Send her an email if you would like to join.
I'd recommend it, it helped me a lot, she is really skillful at taking you into the direct inquiry.

I might be starting to notice how everything is just sort of happening on its own

This pointer can be good for this:

Stream Exercise

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.

Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side.

Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where "you" autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc.

Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which 'you” are responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

As always, stay relaxed. Let me know how it goes.

[mark43]

Can you find anywhere where "you" autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

No I guess I cannot. What I choose is pre-determined I by pre-existing conditions and events.

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc.

This evening I had to decide what to make my family for dinner. I decided to make fish with vegetables and salad in order to both provide my daughter a wholesome meal, but also make my wife happy as she prefers eating healthy. Are you saying I made this decision simply because of the factors that led me to decide in this way? Is that what is meant here?

Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

Yes, I suppose there isn’t one if looked at this way. We are simply reacting or going with the flow.

3. Can anything be found for which 'you” are responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

No, I see that I guess. Nothing I do is counter to the conditions that lead up to it. In that sense, there is nothing here that is acting autonomously.

Interesting.

Thanks Phil. I’m still looking.