Doubt obscuring clarity

[CJ10]

Good morning Cheryl,

Is the knowing an aspect of agency? e.g., I know this. My senses sense this.

Ah. This seems like the 'my awareness' discussion from an earlier message. The knowing is an attribute and it's only through thought that it has a feeling of agency.

Or is the knowing an attribute? That is, the knowing is attributed to a self, but, heh heh, you've seen through the tricks of the illusion of self.

The knowing is an attribute.

How is the movement controlled?

It just appears to be happening. I don't know my palm will turn until it does. A thought can say turn the palm over and the palm turns over but the same thought may happen and the palm doesn't turn.

Does a thought control it?

No. There were thoughts about all sorts of other things though.

Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?

No.

So, is there a choice or just cause and effect playing out?

Just cause and effect. Even with thought? Thought arises saying turn hand and hand turns. But nothing chose to do that. The thought wasn't chosen. The action followed the thought.


I have never really had a meditation practice but feel at the moment it would be helpful. I wondered if you had a recommendation?

Carla :-)

[CherylVT]

Dear Carla,

I was just thinking of you this morning. Good to hear from you in the midst of your travels and visiting.

I have never really had a meditation practice but feel at the moment it would be helpful. I wondered if you had a recommendation?

Well, it all depends. My practice of several decades is insight meditation, but, really, that's just the "door" or gate that my life flowed through. What kinds of meditation do your friends do? Maybe try those, and see what fits. Is there a meditation center near your home? Try that out.

There are many apps that offer guided meditations. You might try Insight Timer, BrightMind, Calm. There are dozens more.

If you happen onto a teacher you like, go to their website. They will have guided meditations. The menu on YouTube is vast.

For now, during LU, we are leaving all those practices aside and focusing on Direct Experience. So, back to LU.

Let’s explore choice, control and decision-making a bit further.

Can you take me through a biggish decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you can share more details about it.
How did it come to be?
Consider all the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same?
How many of these conditions were outside of your influence?
What was in your control (according to thought)?

Please give me some details about your decision making.

Love,
Cheryl

[CherylVT]

Hi Carla

I’m on vacation this week. Without wifi. So I cannot respond to you promptly

Home on Saturday

Love
Cheryl

[CJ10]

Hi Cheryl,

I hope you enjoyed your vacation.

Can you take me through a biggish decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you can share more details about it.

The location of a recent day trip with our extended family.

How did it come to be?

Extended family wished to visit a local attraction, a member of our family has physical disabilities and accessibility needed to be considered. I made a decision around a location and itinerary that would work.

Consider all the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same?

No. It doesn't seem so.

How many of these conditions were outside of your influence?

All of them.

What was in your control (according to thought)?

According to thought, I had control over choosing what we would visit and when/how.

Carla :-)

[CherylVT]

Dear Carla,

Yes, vacation was lovely--a week at a small lake with loons and no other boats except our kayaks. And no wifi :)

There is a long list of events that took you to the day trip. You see there is no decision at all – it’s all one thing leading to another, leading to another, and finally thought appears to announce that a decision has been made :). But now let’s examine this even further:

Do cause and effect exist without thought?
How are ‘cause’ and ‘effect’ experienced directly?
What is time without memory (thought content)?
Can you directly experience ‘past’ or ‘future’? Can you directly experience ‘1 min ago’ or ‘1s ago’?

Love,
Cheryl

[CJ10]

Dear Cheryl,

Do cause and effect exist without thought?

Yes. Many things occur unnoticed without thought attached. Just labeling requires thought.

How are ‘cause’ and ‘effect’ experienced directly?

Through hearing, seeing, smelling etc.

Thump sound - hearing
Head turns - sensations
Eyes see phone on floor - seeing/ thought
Thought about phone falling - thought
Thought about picking it up - thought
Body moves to pick it up - sensations
Thought says i chose to pick it up - thought

What is time without memory (thought content)?

Nothing. There is no time without memory. There's just what's happening now.

Can you directly experience ‘past’ or ‘future’?

No.

Can you directly experience ‘1 min ago’ or ‘1s ago’?

No.

Carla :-)

[CherylVT]

Dear Carla,

Let me ask again.

Do cause and effect exist without thought?

You responded,

Yes. Many things occur unnoticed without thought attached.

Yes, indeed. We assume that many things do occur unnoticed and without thought. But does cause and effect exist?

We could say cause-and-effect is a story.
We could also say that cause-and-effect assumes time. First, one thing happens, then another. But, does time exist? Past is a concept; future is a concept. Do past and future exist?

When the thump happened, did you know, could you already experience turning your head? Not until, you turned your head was turning of the head experienced. Thump was gone. Of course, one assumes that the thump caused the head to turn, but in direct experience, how do you know that thump--head-turn was cause and effect?

love,
Cheryl

[CJ10]

Dear Cheryl,

Do past and future exist?

No. They are only in thought.

in direct experience, how do you know that thump--head-turn was cause and effect?

I don't. I can't. It requires the content of thought.

Carla :-)

[CherylVT]

Dear Carla,

At this point, it will be a good DE exercise to get out for an actual walk in nature and observe interconnectedness. See how ALL is moving interdependently, including thinking and the senses. Hold these questions in mind:

Is there anything that is separate from everything else?
Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought? Is that interdependent movement outside of you? Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?
Is there an owner of being?
Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?
Is there a “you”?

Close your eyes. Do you see a border for being? Where does being end?
Now open them. In DE there is only seeing/hearing/etc. and thinking provides the labels. It’s like a picture that everything is drawn in pencil on paper – the illusion of separation is created by different colours used – otherwise it’s all paper.

https://media.gettyimages.com/id/807638 ... LI_liUT7M=

Different colors in seeing create the illusion of things but all that is there is seeing. Different levels of sounds create the illusion of a song but all that is there is hearing. Can you see/hear that?

Love,
Cheryl

[CJ10]

Hi Cheryl, I apologize for taking so long to reply, our time commitments traveling have been more than anticipated. Would it be ok to put our communications on hold until we return in 2 weeks? We will be home August 28.
Carla :-)

[CherylVT]

Oh, yes Carla. That's fine.

Enjoy your vacation and visits with family.

Cheryl

[CJ10]

Good morning Cheryl,

We are home and over the jet lag. I am able to commit to daily communication again, is it ok to continue if it's suitable for you?

Thanks,
Carla

[CherylVT]

Good to hear from you Carla
Welcome back

I’m traveling this week. In Idaho now going to Victoria on Thursday and Friday. Then back home. So I will be a bit slow in responding

Cheryl

[CherylVT]

Dear Carla,

Can you return to the last assignment of August 8?
Or would you like some refresher questions?

At this point, it will be a good DE exercise to get out for an actual walk in nature and observe interconnectedness. See how ALL is moving interdependently, including thinking and the senses. Hold these questions in mind:

Is there anything that is separate from everything else?
Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought? Is that interdependent movement outside of you? Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?
Is there an owner of being?
Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?
Is there a “you”?

Close your eyes. Do you see a border for being? Where does being end?
Now open them. In DE there is only seeing/hearing/etc. and thinking provides the labels. It’s like a picture that everything is drawn in pencil on paper – the illusion of separation is created by different colours used – otherwise it’s all paper.

https://media.gettyimages.com/id/807638 ... LI_liUT7M=

Different colors in seeing create the illusion of things but all that is there is seeing. Different levels of sounds create the illusion of a song but all that is there is hearing. Can you see/hear that?

Love,
Cheryl

[CherylVT]

Hi Carla,

Are the kids back in school now?
It's been a while since i've heard from you.

love,
Cheryl