Wondering...

[LizLibU]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The self I believe is me seems to be sensations covered with thoughts, images, and beliefs. Not there yet it feels like it is! I have believed it, relied on it, and oriented from it. My 'self' wrapped in tangles of "me'ness" I feel the sensation of resistance to letting it go. It doesn't work, it isn't there, yet I recreate it and imprison myself.

What are you looking for at LU?
I would like support and guidance to see what I do not see, to feel what has seemed intolerable. I would like to be in community with others who are doing similar work so I can learn from and alongside people in a way that supports group evolution.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I am not aware of expecting anything in particular. I feel open and curious and would like pointers from someone who has traversed the territory, is very familiar with the fetters and the movements that lead one toward and away.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Ongoing meditation since 1993- started with Zen & then Vipassana. I am part of the Perfectly Okay Community, I do ongoing process work with Blaise Kennedy in a small group that has been together for 2 years, and deconditioning work with Sanjay Manchanda. I have practiced yoga since 1987 and got certified to teach in 2000- I teach others as part of my work life. Currently, I am in an inquiry facilitator training through Kiloby Inquiries. Inquiry was a sorely missing part of my practice and has become central. I was introduced to fetter work many years ago but was not ready. I am interested and ready now. Thank you.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Bluejay]

Hi Liz (do you want me to call you Liz or something else?),

I'm Henri.

Welcome to the forum. I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like?

If yes, then we can start...

If you haven't already, please read the disclaimer here: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... isclaimer/

And then have a look at what Liberation Unleashed is not in the FAQ: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some guidelines (you may already be familiar with most of this, but just in case):

1. Post at least once every 24 to 48 hours. I'm not strict about this, but I would prefer it if you posted regularly. If you can't, please let me know.

2. Be 100% honest. There is no judgment here. No answer or question is silly or stupid. Your progress is key.

3. This process is based on direct experience, which means sensation, smell, taste, sight, sound, observed thoughts, and so on. There is no need to rely too much on the mind for answers, so long philosophical and analytical answers are best avoided.

4. Pause any other teachings, rituals, books, and practices you are currently involved in. It is best to put all your effort into this inquiry for as long as it lasts. A meditation practice is fine, but anything else can be a distraction.

5. Technology can be problematic. I recommend you type your answers in a text editor like MS Word or Google Docs, and then copy and paste them into this thread. This way you avoid losing your answer if there's a technical glitch.

6. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to answer each question individually. Here are instructions on how to use the quote function if it is not already clear: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And to start, I'd like to know your expectations. You don't have to use direct experience for this. Just share what comes to mind:

1. How will life change when you realize there is no "I"?
2. How will you change?
3. What will be different?
4. What is missing?

Enjoy! :)

[LizLibU]

Hi, Henri-
Thanks for your willingness to provide guidance. Calling me Liz is just fine. Here are my answers to the initial questions:

1. How will life change when you realize there is no "I"?

Perhaps my attachment to suffering will change a bit. Everything will be the same but my entanglement in it will not be so tight.

2. How will you change?

Perhaps my attachment to suffering will change a bit. Sensations will come and and the thoughts that arise maybe my clinging to all of it will lessen.

3. What will be different?

Nothing will be different but it might feel different to feel that nothing is different.

4. What is missing?

Only the thought that something needs to change or be different.

[LizLibU]

Looks like I misinterpreted the quote but think I have it now!

[Bluejay]

Looks like I misinterpreted the quote but think I have it now!

Yes. Put my questions in quotes and your answers below it. All good :)

Your expectations are reasonable. There may be some hidden ones, but they'll make themselves known in due time.

Okay let's make sure we're on the same page...

There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers), and seeing (looking in direct experience).

For example: If I ask you what color your socks are, you can answer in two ways:

1. You can think of the answer and try to remember

2. You can take a look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in this very moment.

Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

[LizLibU]

Yes. Put my questions in quotes and your answers below it. All good :)

Your expectations are reasonable. There may be some hidden ones, but they'll make themselves known in due time.

Okay let's make sure we're on the same page...

There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers), and seeing (looking in direct experience).

For example: If I ask you what color your socks are, you can answer in two ways:

1. You can think of the answer and try to remember

2. You can take a look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in this very moment.

Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Yes- this is clear. Experiencing without all of the filters. The body and not the mind.

[Bluejay]

OK, great :)

This next exercise I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply = image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Also pay attention to when thoughts label and narrate experience, and the difference to direct experience.

Post several of your own observations in a list exactly like the one above.

[LizLibU]

Hello, Henri-
Thanks for your reply. There are a few events below. I look forward to our continued dialogue.
Liz

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Moving the fan from the bedroom to the other room.

Walking toward fan, feet on carpet-sensation
Seeing dresser/seeing doorway- image/color
Seeing fan- image/color
Reaching to unplug- sensation
Lifting- sensation
Holding- sensation
Thinking about the fans weight- thought
Walking back to other room, feet on carpet- sensation
Plugging back in- sensation
Pushing button- sensation
Fan blade moves- sounds
Fan blade moves- air
Thinking about the air- thought


In the kitchen- dishwasher cycle completes
Alarm from washer sounds- sound
Smell of detergent- smell
Feeling the warm door- sensation
Seeing silver & steam- image
Thought about smell- thought
Seeing other dishes in sink- image
Thought about dirty dishes- thought


Holding sweat jacket to hang it up
Seeing jacket on floor- image/color
Reaching for it- sensation
Feeling the fabric & brush of the zipper- sensation
Holding it, draped fabric- sensation
Seeing hook- texture/image
Lifting & placing on hook- sensation
Thought about jackets on rack- thought

Walking out into the street with bare feet to cross the street
Asphalt/cement/gray color- image/color
Feeling texture- sensation
Stepping/navigating- sensation
Seeing the gate- image/texture/color
Hearing the gate hinge open- sound
Seeing the gate swing- image
Closing the gate hinge sound- sound
Thought about the feel of the latch- thought

Getting pasta & put it in the water
Stepping downstairs to get pasta- sensation
Seeing the stairs- image/color
Feeling non-stick strips- sensation
Seeing pasta package- image/color
Touching plastic- sensation
Hearing crunch of bag- sound
Holding bag- sensation
Walking back up stairs- sensation
Hearing dog bark- sound
Touching door handle- sensation
Door opening & closing- sound
Stepping across threshold- sensation
Seeing water boiling on stove- image
Thinking about boiling water- thought
Hearing the water boiling- sound
Using scissors to cup bag- sensation
Seeing part of plastic cut- image
Lifting past pan lid- sensation
Sound of metal lid- sound
Placing it on counter- sensation
Pouring pasta in pot- sound
Weight change of bag- sensation
Seeing pasta in the water- image/color
Feeling the wooden spoon- sensation
Mixing the pasta & seeing it move- image

[Bluejay]

Hi Liz!

These all look good, except this one:

Fan blade moves- air

But this seems like a typo of some kind?

Now let's explore more...

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what do they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts about something, because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought about ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk about can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

- Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
- Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Enjoy and let me know what you find out :)

[LizLibU]

"Looking in actual experience."
What you know for sure, and, is always here.

What about the content of thoughts, what do they describe?

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought about ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Is an apple actually known?

I used a peach for this exercise. My thoughts describe what I have known about the peach. There is not really a peach here but rather a shape, color, smell and thought about 'peach'.

I can find what I think is a peach but there is no actual peach to be found.

A peach cannot be known but can be experienced.

[Bluejay]

OK, very good :)

Let's do a thought exercise next.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear.

Try your best to completely ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict the next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts?

Do you control where attention goes?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It may seem like thoughts are ordered logically, but look carefully. Is there an organized sequence? Or is it just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence' or 'they take content from previous thoughts' or 'one thought follows another thought'?

Let me know what you find :)

[LizLibU]

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict the next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts?

Do you control where attention goes?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It may seem like thoughts are ordered logically, but look carefully. Is there an organized sequence? Or is it just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence' or 'they take content from previous thoughts' or 'one thought follows another thought'?

During my 30 minute sit thoughts appeared and disappeared. I did not do anything to make a particular thought appear at any moment. I could not predict the next thought- they just appeared and ranged in degree of pleasantness.

I do not control where my attention goes- it's as if my attention arrives with the content that appears. I cannot choose to have painful, negative, or fearful thoughts- they might just arise or might not.

There is no choosing any kind of thought and I cannot prevent any of them from appearing in the landscape. There was not a logicalness or organized sequence. One thought appeared, another appeared- perhaps related or perhaps not.

[Bluejay]

it's as if my attention arrives with the content that appears.

That's exactly it :)

There is no choosing any kind of thought and I cannot prevent any of them from appearing in the landscape. There was not a logicalness or organized sequence. One thought appeared, another appeared- perhaps related or perhaps not.

If there is no controlling thoughts, or even 'attention', what is it that you're in control of in life? Can you control how your life goes?

[LizLibU]

If there is no controlling thoughts, or even 'attention', what is it that you're in control of in life? Can you control how your life goes?

That is an excellent question! My mind thinks I am. I sometimes truly feel thoughts coming and go and still, especially if I am having anxious body sensations criticism arises about "me" and I believe it is "my fault"I am being critical, that I should run a different program or think different thoughts! The last few days sensations and thoughts have tangled and "I" have found thoughts arriving that tell me "I" am messing up my life, doing it wrong, should somehow be different. How could that even be possible? And yet physical sensations combined with thought feel like harassment to "me". "I" see/feel it and decide/think "I" don't like it. "I" have been told "I" can control how my life goes and that "I" should get on that- make it happen! More thoughts about "my" life arrive. "I" don't like how "I" feel and think!!!!

[Bluejay]

That is an excellent question! My mind thinks I am. I sometimes truly feel thoughts coming and go and still, especially if I am having anxious body sensations criticism arises about "me" and I believe it is "my fault"I am being critical, that I should run a different program or think different thoughts! The last few days sensations and thoughts have tangled and "I" have found thoughts arriving that tell me "I" am messing up my life, doing it wrong, should somehow be different. How could that even be possible? And yet physical sensations combined with thought feel like harassment to "me". "I" see/feel it and decide/think "I" don't like it. "I" have been told "I" can control how my life goes and that "I" should get on that- make it happen! More thoughts about "my" life arrive. "I" don't like how "I" feel and think!!!

These thoughts certainly seem to be part and parcel of being human.

It may feel like "I", but is there control over any of these thoughts?

The last few days sensations and thoughts have tangled and "I" have found thoughts arriving that tell me "I" am messing up my life, doing it wrong, should somehow be different. How could that even be possible?

Yes, how could you do it wrong when there is no predicting what thought comes next, or what thought is focused on, or even what information is taken in by the body/mind?

Thoughts will no doubt have answers for this, but is there control over even that?

Thought answers to these questions use language that has been learned, concepts that have been taken in, and knowledge that has been assimilated.

"I" have been told "I" can control how my life goes and that "I" should get on that- make it happen! More thoughts about "my" life arrive. "I" don't like how "I" feel and think!!!

This idea that you can control life is part of the knowledge and concepts learned.

And then a thought comes in and labels other thoughts and say it should be different.

Is there a 'you' in any of this?

There is no predicting or controlling thoughts, so is there controlling "I" or "me"?