Hi/Bye Old Self, No Self

[camellowd]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the self that I take myself to be is illusory

What are you looking for at LU?
To have the direct experience of no self instead of just the thoughts of no self. There is so much paradox in the seeking that I'm genuinely curious how to even have a conversation about these thoughts and ideas knowing that language is all superfluous to the is-ness, but I'm here for the journey and to see where it all may lead.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I'm hoping curiosity, questions and genuine interest in this leads me to a genuine conversation that is able to connect me to clarity.
I'm hoping to connect with others who are also unlearning and discovering.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Lots of books, podcast, Youtube, thinking, trying to wrap my head around it even while knowing that's part of the deception, this mind that wants to know what knows it but unsure how to know anything without mind, a component of self that isn't real?

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Elad]

Hi, my name is Elad and I would be happy to do this exploration with you. Before we can start we need agreement on a few things, please consider them carefully:

1. During this process you will only attend to your own direct experience. We will not be discussing theories or beliefs or other methods, including from non-duality and etc. You are not meant to rely on belief in anything, including what Liberation Unleashed or I say, only on a deepening clarification of your direct experience. I will ask you questions and you will look and answer me from your direct experience.

2. The two most important ingredients in this process are your wish to see what is true and your willingness to look at questions, do experiments presented to you, and report your experience here with 100% honesty. If you are up to doing that, this process will flow where it needs to flow naturally.

3. Please read the following documents from LU and make sure you are on board with their content:


http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


4. For the process to be focused and fruitful I ask you to answer on this thread every day, and in the case of special circumstances where you cannot report on how the exploration is moving, send a message here on the thread to say so. If you know that this does not fit your life rhythm or preferences let me know and another guide will work with you.


How does this sound with you? And what may I call you here?



Warmly,
Elad

[camellowd]

Hi Elad,
Thank you for replying to my request for a guide.
I am ready to explore and agree to the requests stated to do so with you.
-Camille

[Elad]

Hi Camille, great! One more practical note, for simplicity I will write questions to you in CAP SLOCK. Please answer all questions in caps lock and start the answer with repeating (copy/pasting) the question in caps lock, so it's easy to track what you are answering. Ok, let's start.

"THERE IS NO INDEPENDENT SELF, NO CONTROLLER OR CHOSER OF WHAT HAPPENS, AND THERE NEVER WAS". WHAT REACTIONS COME UP AS YOU READ THIS STATEMENT?

Please answer directly everything that comes up by itself as you read and ponder the question: thoughts, feelings, sensations. Do not make an effort to give a "right" answer, but rather just let stuff come and be written and give both of us a chance to see and experience what comes up, naturally and without judgement.

[camellowd]

"THERE IS NO INDEPENDENT SELF, NO CONTROLLER OR CHOSER OF WHAT HAPPENS, AND THERE NEVER WAS". WHAT REACTIONS COME UP AS YOU READ THIS STATEMENT?

I AM CHOOSING TO RESPOND TO THIS QUESTION, OR SO IT SEEMS, WHICH MAKES ME FEEL LIKE THERE IS A SELF WITH SOME AGENCY IN CHOICES. THERE IS RESISTANCE TO THE THOUGHT OF NO INDEPENDENT SELF, CONFUSION ON HOW THAT CAN BE WHEN I FEEL LIKE I AM HERE MAKING CHOICES ALL THE TIME. I DON'T FEEL SCARED OF THE ALTERNATIVE, NO SELF, MAYBE BECAUSE I DON'T BELIEVE IT? I TRY TO SEE IF I CAN BUY INTO THE IDEA A BIT, WONDERING IF NO SELF IS DIFFERENT FROM NO INDEPENDENT SELF, BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND THAT NOTHING EXISTS AS FULLY INDEPENDENT, BUT I WONDER IF THIS IS JUST SEMANTICS AS A WAY TO AVOID THE FULL QUESTION AND ANSWER. I KEEP LOOPING AROUND THOUGHTS ABOUT ALL THIS, WRITING, ERASING, REWRITING, TRYING TO FIND RESPONSES THAT DON'T FEEL QUITE RIGHT. I AM SHIFTING TO SENSATION TO SEE IF A SHIFT FROM THOUGHTS TO FEELINGS WILL BE HELPFUL, MY MIND IS POINTING OUT THAT THIS IS A CHOICE, TO SHIFT MY ATTENTION AND FOCUS ON HOW I FEEL, BUT THOUGHTS SEEM TO BE ALONG FOR THAT RIDE TOO, LIKE A SILENT COMMENTATOR, POINTING OUT THIS AND THAT. REGARDLESS, I FEEL CALM, SITTING HERE, PEACEFULLY PONDERING THESE THINGS.

[Elad]

Hi Camille, good stuff, good that you are letting me in on what is happening as it's happening. We are not in control of this process, so we can just watch how it unfolds and clarity downs. Moving forward I want to ask you to refrain from erasing and rewriting. Just send the first thing. It will go where it needs to go, also if misunderstandings come, or you write something you later see you don't mean, all this will serve to show us the non existence of a seperate self in control and also show us where care, interest, clarity, compassion effortlessly wants to be directed. On a practical note, moving forward just use caps lock when you quote/paste the question, not for the answers :)

Okay, now I want to invite the resistance you spoke of, and the fear, however small or subtle or whatever size it might turn out. Let us please treat them as honored guests. We want to hear what they have to say.

WHAT DOES THE RESISTANCE AND FEAR (HOWEVER SMALL IT SEEMS) WANT TO SAY? WHAT DO THEY WANT TO PROTECT AND MAINTAIN? WHAT ARE THEIR CONCERNS REGARDING *NO SEPARATE SELF/CONTROLLER/CHOOSER*?

Let it flow and no editing :)

[camellowd]

WHAT DOES THE RESISTANCE AND FEAR (HOWEVER SMALL IT SEEMS) WANT TO SAY? WHAT DO THEY WANT TO PROTECT AND MAINTAIN? WHAT ARE THEIR CONCERNS REGARDING *NO SEPARATE SELF/CONTROLLER/CHOOSER*?

Ok, just typing. It feels odd, to not have control over what I type. Now I'm just pausing lots, waiting to form the thoughts in my mind before committing to the keyboard and this note. I'm just sitting here wondering what I can possibly type that is real enough, true enough, to convey anything. I'm taking breaths as I ponder, type, pause, letting breath flow and words come and see what I write. I'm re-reading the question, really wanting to consider this, wondering how to get past all the superfluous mind chatter to the heart of it. If I could put words to fear, it would say that this doesn't make sense now and never will. I get frustrated, knowing there is something outside of this big mind and body trap. It does feel like I'm trapped, stuck to this super sticky being that absorbs sensory experiences and then spins thoughts and emotions about it all, to no avail I don't have another self inside me that is dictating this, it is flowing, my fingers are part of the flow from abstract thought to letters that string together to form the words we all agreed mean certain things and wonder how it is parsed back together on any receiving side. The play of it all feels like a few degrees of separation from the experience. I'm returning to the direct experience, I can't pin down precisely why I feel separate and controlling this from some point. I feel stuck. I want to feel safety, and peace, and to be able to steer toward those things. So far I'm not sure I'm being very effective, I'm motivated by seeking but also willing to consider why it isn't working very well considering how much time and energy I invest and how I feel more stuck than ever, and perhaps there are other ways to attain peace.

[camellowd]

P.S. I just realized my chrysalis profile image, and your tree - they made me smile : )

[Elad]

Hi Camille, this is good, your honesty is a key force in this process. I'll quote a few things you wrote here, and ask questions, please answer every question. Before that, on a general note, and you know this I think, but it bears repetition: This process is not about getting any new knowledge. It's only about undoing a state of being lost in some unconscious beliefs that create the sense of suffering, seeing what is all ready there, all ready real. So while some of the questions invite you to look at feelings and thoughts, you want to be interested in what you can see in actual experience (from here AE), meaning smell, touch, sight, hearing, taste and the movement of thoughts. When it comes to thoughts the focus here will mostly not be on their content, but just on their nature - how they show up, how they dissapear, that kind of thing. Sometimes, as we have partly done so far, I will ask about the content of feelings and thoughts, to help support the right conditions for looking and seeing what is all ready there.

Okay, things you wrote (paraphrased), and questions for you:

1) "I want to get past mind chatter and to the heart of it". Its a good intention. Now look:

IS THERE ANY SEPARATE SELF WANTING THAT, OR IS THERE JUST A MOVEMENT OF FEELINGS, THOUGHTS, WISHES HAPPENING? CAN YOU FIND A SEPARATE SELF OUTSIDE WHAT IS JUST BEING EXPERIENCED NOW? EXPERIENCE IS THERE: THOUGHTS, FEELINGS, SENSATIONS, CHOICES, MOVEMENTS, PERCEPTIONS, RIGHT NOW. IS THERE ANY SEPARATE SELF TO BE FOUND FOUND THAT CREATES THAT OR CONTROLS THAT?

Notice, I am not asking if you "feel" there is a separate self. This feelings probably there, later we can talk about what that is, and just to be clear, it is not a problem, or something we want to make go away. Just inviting you to look in the most neutral way possible if a seperate self can be found anywhere in the direct experience.

2) "My fear is this doesnt make sense to me and never will". This is a good pointer (i.e. something that might make us SEE) and a good honesty. What you take yourself to be, will never be able to really make sense of this. I mean on a conceptual level we can give good arguments for the non-existance of a separate self, from Buddhism, neuroscience, psychology, physics, etc etc. But that level is not what we are dealing with here. We are dealing with SEEING. So you are right, what you take yourself to be will never see this, but SEEING can happen that what you take your self to be is a fantasy running by itself. Believing in that will not help. Seeing will make the difference.

3) "trapped, stuck in this mind-body being". Yes that is your "experience". But what is this experience made of? Do you find direct evidence for it, or is it a very strongly held belief, shared with most of humanity? Be very alert and still, look and see. You don't need a special state or special knowledge, just look:

CAN YOU FIND ANY EVIDENCE IN DIRECT EXPERIENCE THAT YOU ARE THE BODY-MIND, OR IS IT MORE DIRECTLY DESCRIPTIVE TO SAY THAT THERE IS SENSE-EXPERIENCE AND THOUGHTS, ALL HAPPENING, WITHOUT ANYONE MAKING THEM HAPPEN?

4) "I cant pin down why I feel separate and controlling this from some point". That is a great observation and a great pointer, look:

DO YOU CHOOSE THE THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS LIKE "I AM SEPARATE AND CONTROLLING" OR IS IT HAPPENING IN A WAY BEYOND THE CONTROL OF WHAT YOU TAKE YOURSELF TO BE? CAN YOU CHOOSE YOUR NEXT THOUGHT, YOUR NEXT FEELING? CAN YOU CONTROL THOUGHTS COMING AND GOING?

Again be still and look in AE. See if you can see, that when there is confusion, there cannot be not confusion, and when seeing happens, there cannot be not seeing. How many hairs do you have on your right little finger? See that when you don't know you don't know, and once you know, you know. Be curious and relaxed about how the body-mind reacts to this and how it moves (including it being resistant and skeptical and non-relaxed if that happens). The curiosity will lead to seeing.

5) "Perhaps there are other ways to feel peace". Speaking on the conventional level there are so many aspects to well-being and this should not negate any wholesome, caring, fun, nurturing, loving, responsible etc. activity. This is not about stopping any of them, anything you can do on the conventional/relative level that is good for you, is great. It's just not our focus here.

Take tame with each question, look at AE, look many times. And remember, you can only engage the questions and look many times, you are not in control of when SEEING happens. So you might as well relax and enjoy as much as possible while you engage and look. Whatever you see your mind doing is all right too, who you take yourself to be is not in control of it, and it's a good chance to see how mind works by itself with no controlling self. Once this is seen deeply, not just believed, perception shifts.

[camellowd]

IS THERE ANY SEPARATE SELF WANTING THAT, OR IS THERE JUST A MOVEMENT OF FEELINGS, THOUGHTS, WISHES HAPPENING? CAN YOU FIND A SEPARATE SELF OUTSIDE WHAT IS JUST BEING EXPERIENCED NOW? EXPERIENCE IS THERE: THOUGHTS, FEELINGS, SENSATIONS, CHOICES, MOVEMENTS, PERCEPTIONS, RIGHT NOW. IS THERE ANY SEPARATE SELF TO BE FOUND FOUND THAT CREATES THAT OR CONTROLS THAT?

There isn't a separate self that is in addition to AE, it's just all of that, being experienced, and noticing it being experienced, that I feel is the self, aware of AE, feeling it, noting it, like the subject of the AE. It's not a self that can be touched in AE, but a felt sense. I sometimes think I take awareness as the nature of how the self functions, but that's like a mirror that could keep replicating that structure, a self-noticing awareness, that notices AE, and awareness noticing that self, on and on. This is all thought, and feelings about the thought, that just pass through the field of awareness.

CAN YOU FIND ANY EVIDENCE IN DIRECT EXPERIENCE THAT YOU ARE THE BODY-MIND, OR IS IT MORE DIRECTLY DESCRIPTIVE TO SAY THAT THERE IS SENSE-EXPERIENCE AND THOUGHTS, ALL HAPPENING, WITHOUT ANYONE MAKING THEM HAPPEN?

I'm not sure I know how to separate AE that is not physical (touch) from AE that is less physical (sound). My hand can touch things and the AE is feeling something solid, with something solid. Who is touching and feeling seems like a separate inquiry than what is being felt, maybe. Painful touch also seems to be an AE of a body that can feel something painful, like fire, and a swirl of feelings (fear) regarding fire, and thoughts (thinking how to avoid fire), and moving away from fire, which feels like a choice.

DO YOU CHOOSE THE THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS LIKE "I AM SEPARATE AND CONTROLLING" OR IS IT HAPPENING IN A WAY BEYOND THE CONTROL OF WHAT YOU TAKE YOURSELF TO BE? CAN YOU CHOOSE YOUR NEXT THOUGHT, YOUR NEXT FEELING? CAN YOU CONTROL THOUGHTS COMING AND GOING?

Tonight's meditation was to allow thoughts to happen, but attempt to ignore them, to see if they would settle, recede, sometimes popping into awareness, but turning away, not directly engaging thoughts, just aware that thought was happening, and seeing what happens when I shifted my focus away. Thought chatter did settle, I did feel more peaceful, and some spaciousness was felt as I distanced myself from a busy mind. At one point I was talking about myself as if I was a character in a story, narrating in my mind what "Camille's mind was up to, reminding myself to just let it be, don't feed it any attention. I was kind of a strange way to relate to what I was experiencing, and felt a bit like an agreement between two conflicting parties, one that just wants some peace and quiet, the other who carries on incessantly, and how one side was just going to let it be without trying to control it, and the other kind of calmed down because it wasn't getting much attention for its efforts, though it did keep trying. It was an enjoyable truce of sorts :)

[Elad]

"There isn't a separate self that is in addition to AE, it's just all of that, being experienced, and noticing it being experienced, that I feel is the self, aware of AE, feeling it, noting it, like the subject of the AE. It's not a self that can be touched in AE, but a felt sense."

IS THIS TRUE? CAN YOU ABAOLUTELY KNOW THAT THERE IS A SELF THAT IS AWARE? RATHER THEN JUST THE WHOLE EXPERIENCE INCLUDING THE BELIEF IN SUBJECT AND OBJECT HAPENING BY ITSELF, LIFE/JUST THIS HAPOENING?

If you feel satisfied with the belief investigation stops. If you see that you don't know for sure if there is a subject as anything else then a functional concept, and you are interested in seeing beyond doubt, keep looking

"I sometimes think I take awareness as the nature of how the self functions, but that's like a mirror that could keep replicating that structure, a self-noticing awareness, that notices AE, and awareness noticing that self, on and on."

This thinking shows philosophical sophistication, useful many places, but here we are for direct nonconceptual seeing.

"This is all thought, and feelings about the thought, that just pass through the field of awareness."

Exactly, the perspectives you share are thoughts and feelings. Not direct seeing of no-self, direct seeing of THIS.


"I'm not sure I know how to separate AE that is not physical (touch) from AE that is less physical (sound)."

You don't need to. These distinctions physical/less physical and the rest of it bring you to the domain of philosophical thinking. For the purposes of this investigation you want to look at the simplest level of direct experience, sense experience (sight, smell, etc) and thought directly experienced as thought appearing and disappearing. See the difference between on the one hand that this simplest direct experience level(AE) without any theories about physical/notphysical subject/object, and on the other hand the CONTENT of thought.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT DISTINCTION? AND ARE YOU INTERESTED IN RECOGNIZINF


DO YOU CHOOSE THE THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS LIKE "I AM SEPARATE AND CONTROLLING" OR IS IT HAPPENING IN A WAY BEYOND THE CONTROL OF WHAT YOU TAKE YOURSELF TO BE? CAN YOU CHOOSE YOUR NEXT THOUGHT, YOUR NEXT FEELING? CAN YOU CONTROL THOUGHTS COMING AND GOING?

Tonight's meditation was to allow thoughts to happen, but attempt to ignore them, to see if they would settle, recede, sometimes popping into awareness, but turning away, not directly engaging thoughts, just aware that thought was happening, and seeing what happens when I shifted my focus away. Thought chatter did settle, I did feel more peaceful, and some spaciousness was felt as I distanced myself from a busy mind. At one point I was talking about myself as if I was a character in a story, narrating in my mind what "Camille's mind was up to, reminding myself to just let it be, don't feed it any attention. I was kind of a strange way to relate to what I was experiencing, and felt a bit like an agreement between two conflicting parties, one that just wants some peace and quiet, the other who carries on incessantly, and how one side was just going to let it be without trying to control it, and the other kind of calmed down because it wasn't getting much attention for its efforts, though it did keep trying. It was an enjoyable truce of sorts :)
[/quote]

[Elad]

Sent the last message by mistake. Please ignore and read next message.

[Elad]

"There isn't a separate self that is in addition to AE, it's just all of that, being experienced, and noticing it being experienced, that I feel is the self, aware of AE, feeling it, noting it, like the subject of the AE. It's not a self that can be touched in AE, but a felt sense."

IS THIS TRUE? CAN YOU ABAOLUTELY KNOW THAT THERE IS A SELF THAT IS AWARE? RATHER THEN JUST THE WHOLE INCLUDING THE BELIEF IN SUBJECT AND OBJECT HAPPENING BY ITSELF - LIFE/ THIS HAPPENING BY ITSELF?

If you feel satisfied with the belief investigation stops. If you see that you don't know for sure if there is a subject as anything else then a functional concept, and you are interested in seeing beyond doubt, keep looking.

"I sometimes think I take awareness as the nature of how the self functions, but that's like a mirror that could keep replicating that structure, a self-noticing awareness, that notices AE, and awareness noticing that self, on and on."

This thinking shows philosophical sophistication, useful many places, but here we are for direct nonconceptual seeing.

"This is all thought, and feelings about the thought, that just pass through the field of awareness."

Exactly, the perspectives you share are thoughts and feelings. Not direct seeing of no-self, direct seeing of THIS.


"I'm not sure I know how to separate AE that is not physical (touch) from AE that is less physical (sound)."

You don't need to. These distinctions physical/less physical and the rest of it bring you to the domain of philosophical thinking. For the purposes of this investigation you want to look at the simplest level of direct experience, sense experience (sight, smell, etc) and thought directly experienced as thought appearing and disappearing. See the difference between on the one hand this simplest direct experience level(AE) without any theories about physical/notphysical, subject/object, and on the other hand the CONTENT of thought.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT DISTINCTION? IF IT IS NOT CLEAR, TELL ME WHAT IS NOT CLEAR.

"Tonight's meditation was to allow thoughts to happen, but attempt to ignore them, to see if they would settle, recede, sometimes popping into awareness, but turning away, not directly engaging thoughts, just aware that thought was happening, and seeing what happens when I shifted my focus away. Thought chatter did settle, I did feel more peaceful, and some spaciousness was felt as I distanced myself from a busy mind. At one point I was talking about myself as if I was a character in a story, narrating in my mind what "Camille's mind was up to, reminding myself to just let it be, don't feed it any attention. I was kind of a strange way to relate to what I was experiencing, and felt a bit like an agreement between two conflicting parties, one that just wants some peace and quiet, the other who carries on incessantly, and how one side was just going to let it be without trying to control it, and the other kind of calmed down because it wasn't getting much attention for its efforts, though it did keep trying. It was an enjoyable truce of sorts :)"

Nice. A good thing about this activity is it brought some comfort to you and also some observation of thought. And at the same time it maintains and reinforces the experience of a self that needs and can do something.

DO YOU WANT TO SEE BEYOND DOUBT IF THIS SELF YOU TAKE YOURSELF TO BE EXISTS OR NOT? CAN YOU SAY MORE ABOUT WHY?

A little later today I will also send you an exercise to deepen the sense of AE.

[Elad]

Direct/Actual Experience - Labelling Daily Activities


Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you
can. Label daily activities simply image/sight, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/sight
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct
experience).

One time during the day, sit down for 10 minutes, notice things, and write to me about it, in the format/structure above, so for eksample:

Seeing screen, simply= sight
Hearing AC, simple= sound
Hearing bird, simply= sound
Feeling coolness on legs, simply= sensation

Etc.

Let me know what is noticed in experimenting with this.

[camellowd]

seeing screen = sight
hearing dryer = sound
hearing keyboard clicking = sound
hearing airplane = sound
hearing tap on glass = sound
hearing ringing in ears = sound
seeing fingers typing = sight
seeing pen = sight
seeing papers = sight
seeing glass = sight
feeling inner tingling = sensation
hearing exhale = sound
feeling breath = sensation
feeling cold on feet = sensation
feeling floor = sensation
seeing wall = sight
seeing globe = sight
seeing plant = sight
seeing clouds = sight
seeing trees = sight
hearing knee pop = sound
feeling chair = sensation
hearing notification ding = sound
seeing gnat flying = sight
hearing airplane = sound
hearing clock ticking = sound
hearing cupboard opening = sound
scratching skin = sensation

I will circle back on the previous questions later tonight : )