Seeking a guide please

[filtah]

Here is the other pointer I promised:

Observing thoughts

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

[mark43]

Is there not just life happening?
There is a presence, not separate from the looking, here that is undeniable - You would not be reading these words otherwise.

Is there any connection between this 'me' and the existence of life, happening now?

Also, when you use the word 'feel' what do you mean? Do you actually feel something? or is this only a thought?

Yes, so this presence is what I strongly feel I am. Sorry, I guess I sometimes call that “awareness” or “sense of being”. That’s what confuses me about this “there is no you” path - there must be some part of me on some level that’s aware of experience. Is this wrong? I feel strongly that it is correct. I guess tell me if I’m wrong please so I know to dig deeper. You’re saying it’s not separate from the looking, so does that mean the looking is aware of itself? The hearing, the thoughts, etc are all aware of themselves?

This is where I’m at. If there is no me, who or what is aware of experience? If there is no me that is aware, how can one conclude thar things are just happening and aware of themselves?

Is the buttchair pointer good for this inquiry?

[mark43]

Hi Phil.

As I was out walking tonight, I think it sort of hit me a little and things started to click. Nothing really worth describing other than me suddenly starting to see or get what you’ve been pointing at.

This may just be an experience, and it may all just go away tomorrow, but right now, I feel kind of like I’m on the edge of a cliff. I’ve been full of fear and anxiety for a few hours.

Are there any resources you might know of such as videos to help me through this?

Thanks.

[filtah]

Stay with this Mark, you are moving in the right direction. Fear is a good sign.

Please watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKX1llYtlKE

[filtah]

Also, this one from Angelo will be helpful i expect:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU3f7EU4NqI

[mark43]

Thanks Phil. That's funny, I did watch Angelo's video last night. I'll watch the other later today after work.

The fear is gone now somewhat. To use Liberation Unleashed terminology, I think I turned away from the "gate" last night to avoid the feelings. They were pretty intense.

I will work on this the next few days. I think I see what is meant by there being no me now.

[filtah]

Hi Mark,

I think I see what is meant by there being no me now

Good. Let me know what was seen :)


How did you get on with the other pointer?


May also be good to join the zoom call with Vince this Sunday if you are available?

[mark43]

Hi Phil.

It became clear to me that there is a sense of identity that makes it seem as though there is a me at the centre of everything, coming from inside my body, from behind my eyes. What I saw was that this was completely made up and not real. Upon seeing this, my awareness of experience expanded and there was no longer any me. Instead, there was just wide open expansiveness; ie - everything seen, everything heard, everything felt, everything thought, etc. It's still sorta there if I look for it. It's like I can step out of the me and get absorbed into everything else. Does that make sense?

Yes, I should try to join this call on Sunday. I won't go into details, but I've been extremely busy the past month starting a new business on top of my regular work and family duties. This is why I've yet to attend.

I haven't spent any time doinng that other pointer yet.

Thanks.

[filtah]

Hi Mark.

Well, that sounds pretty clear.
I don't think you can un-see that.
It is usually very unexpected and can be shocking for some. It's different for everyone though.
You have been looking earnestly, so I'm not surprised this was seen.

I haven't spent any time doing that other pointer yet.

After an experience like that, it probably seems a bit pointless now right?

I do have to ask you this however:

Can you now say 100% that there is no separate self?

[mark43]

Hi Phil. To be clear, I am not there yet. I am not sure how this works, but I don’t think I’ve jumped in or gone through the gate or whatever yet. I certainly had a glimpse of there being no me, and I’ve had a few more peaks since then, but each time the fear gets too intense for me to keep looking there.

It feels so bottomless, with no support to hold me up. It’s been quite difficult for me to muster up enough courage not to turn away.

I will keep working on it. Thanks.

[mark43]

Hi Phil,

So, as reported, I believe I had a glimpse of no-self, and things got a little disorienting for a few days, but I think the sense of identity has fully returned.

Should I resume the pointer activities?

Also, I really enjoyed the Sunday chat. Thanks for the invite. I will be making an effort to join those regularly.

[filtah]

Hi Mark,
Was good to see you at the Sunday meeting.
I'm glad you enjoyed it.

It has, and continues to be really helpful for me on many levels.
It's a good place with many people at all different stages of the process.

Sorry I've not been very responsive past few days. Lets get back on track with the inquiry :)


1) The Fear:

each time the fear gets too intense for me to keep looking there.

Thats OK. take your time with it. Maybe test the waters a bit. See if you can allow yourself to experience say 10% of the fear, if it comes up again. Try and get acquainted with it, build some trust, then gradually you may be able to dive into it completely.

Fear never came up like this for me, but I have had dread and other intense emotions come up before and after the apparent shift, and what I can say is that when you give yourself completely to the experience, it can be revealing. It's not what you thought it was at all. maybe a good analogy would be like the eye of a hurricane, like a stillness appears of itself, but not separate from the fear. You may know what I mean already.

Although the fear may completely irrational, it can be helpful to ask yourself What am I scared of really? This can be a fruitful inquiry, especially if it's not clear.


2) The illusion:

So, seeing through the illusion of self does not mean it will disappear. I think this is a common misconception, assumption, expectation, which can keep the seeking going.

Deep looking and inquiry can result in experiences of absorption where the sense of self disappears completely, but this will always be a temporary state. It has value for sure, so I would keep inquiring in this way and welcome such expereices, and the fear too when they arise.

The sense of self can be there or not, the difference is you know it's not really you. This is the freedom. It doesn't matter how it looks feels or thinks. There can be a letting go into the experience of whatever it is. Thinking, looking, hearing, simply whatever is arising.

You have seen that this is all just happening, arising for no-one, and now the illusion has reconstructed itself? Does that make it real?

So the issue now may be to look into the doubt. Maybe this is what is coming up? Does this resonate at all? For me it was doubt, but maybe it's fear for you? I think they are different shades of the same thing however.


As far as inquiry goes, I get the feeling you can probably follow your intuition as to what works best. I can give you more pointers if you prefer however. Do you have any unanswered questions?
Are you clear on what I was pointing to? If not, we can pick up from where we left off.

[mark43]

…when you give yourself completely to the experience, it can be revealing. It's not what you thought it was at all. maybe a good analogy would be like the eye of a hurricane, like a stillness appears of itself, but not separate from the fear. You may know what I mean already.

Although the fear may completely irrational, it can be helpful to ask yourself What am I scared of really? This can be a fruitful inquiry, especially if it's not clear.

Thank you. This is helpful.

As for what I’m afraid of, it’s very clearly a fear of going mad. I’ve had this fear for a long time.

The sense of self can be there or not, the difference is you know it's not really you. This is the freedom. It doesn't matter how it looks feels or thinks. There can be a letting go into the experience of whatever it is. Thinking, looking, hearing, simply whatever is arising.

You have seen that this is all just happening, arising for no-one, and now the illusion has reconstructed itself? Does that make it real?

Yes, I definitely did see something, but it feels largely gone though. I’m not sure what I experienced, but it doesn’t really feel like what people have reported when describing experiences of waking from a dream. Yes, maybe this is just doubt speaking, but I really really feel largely the same now, Phil. Even the place where I start to experience fear and terror is no longer accessible. I try to remember what I saw and I just can’t find it.

I have trouble relating to what you said about always knowing on a deeper level that there is no self despite falling back under the illusion. If that’s true, how does it relieve suffering? For example, tonight, I was in just an awful mood and I couldn’t prevent my feelings and emotions from feeling personal. I could see them for what they were, but they still very much affected my behaviour. I caused suffering for myself and for my wife. This (maybe) glimpse of no-self did not make me impervious to my emotions. I totally lost tonight and feel pretty bad about it.

Yes, I’m not sure what I should do now for pointers. I’ll just keep doing basic inquiry I suppose. Im also quite intrigued what focusing on my butt for four months will lead to so I’ll keep doing that one :

Thanks

[filtah]

Hi Mark.

As for what I’m afraid of, it’s very clearly a fear of going mad. I’ve had this fear for a long time.

OK, well I'm glad there is some clarity there at least. This is a common fear, Angelo talks about this a lot, so it may be good to know you are not alone in feeling this way. Others have gone through this too. Take your time.

I’m not sure what I experienced, but it doesn’t really feel like what people have reported when describing experiences of waking from a dream

It will not be like you expected. This is the most surprising thing about it. Whatever ideas you have about it are wrong. You have to let them go otherwise they will get in the way of seeing what is here already.

I try to remember what I saw and I just can’t find it.

You have to let that memory go. Trying to find it, by referencing a memory is what is preventing you from seeing it. Just notice if there is a seeking for it - those exact thoughts, as they arise, are already it.

I have trouble relating to what you said about always knowing on a deeper level that there is no self despite falling back under the illusion. If that’s true, how does it relieve suffering?

Seeing through the illusion of self is not a cure for suffering. This is an expectation. It's not like that at all.
Seeing that the suffering belongs to no-one, and never has, can give rise to a sense of peace. A letting go into the suffering, and allowing it to be what it already is. The 'me' is just a NO to what is. It doesn't have to say YES, you can't change that, but if you recognise it is not YOU, it changes by itself. This recognition can arise just by looking, openly and honestly.

This (maybe) glimpse of no-self did not make me impervious to my emotions. I totally lost tonight and feel pretty bad about it.

Seeing through the illusion of self, most likely will not dissolve the deeper emotionally driven reactivity.
In the fetter model, this is 4 & 5 Desire & Ill will. This will require deeper work to break this deeper level of identification.

Try not to be so hard on yourself. These things happen. Suffering can still arise, Pain will still feel like pain, life goes on much as it always has done. Awakening is the beginning of a process, not the end of suffering.

Yes, I’m not sure what I should do now for pointers

OK. well Butt-Chair is a good one, so keep working with this and remember to look closely at the sensation. The looking alone is the only goal.

Also, please complete the "Observing thoughts" pointer and post a response to the questions in blue. I'll keep giving more pointers as a basis for the inquiry, OK?

[mark43]

Hi Phil,

Sorry - I was away in the woods for the past 3-4 days. I apologize for forgetting to let you know I’d be away from internet connectivity.

I haven’t spent any time doing any pointing activities lately. I’ve been going through a period of somewhat intense emotional reactivity that has caused both myself and my loved ones a bit of anguish. I’ve been experiencing negative emotions (which aren’t really a problem), but from this space, I seem to be reacting in ways I’m not proud of, which then leads me to feeling anger or frustration towards myself. I’m watching all of this but just not able to catch myself from fuelling this further. The reactivity has just been awful. Most of the time, when I’m able to step away from things, I’ve been trying to calm down and relax in order to settle these emotions.

When I have time to catch myself and be mindful, I can easily make a subtle shift and go to a place where I stop identifying with the experience. When I make this shift, it is clear that I am not any of the physical sensations felt in the body or the one doing the thinking/reacting. I am no longer the one who the feelings are happening to because nothing is me nor mine. Suffering is gone. Is this awakening? It sorta feels to me like bypassing as it feels like I’m just trying to escape my experience.

When people say there is no me, I get so confused as to what that really even means. There is an undeniable presence that remains even after I’ve stopped existing as a Mark that owns the thoughts and feelings. I see there is no me that these things are happening to, but what about this presence that observes or knows? Am I not this? Am I not communicating to you right now? If I am, then there has to be a me. No?

I know this is not a discussion and you are more comfortable giving me pointers where I can find these answers out for myself, but this just really feels certain. Am I not this presence Phil?