Truth over illusions!

[JonathanR]

Hi Emma

How is it going?

Jon

[EmmaNoOne]

Hi Jon! Had quite a bit going on in the mind these last few days. Lots coming up to be seen and it's seemed very challenging. Hence the delay. Had some feelings and scenarios in the world with my 'relationship' which has lead to trying to get concepts that are now feeling a bit 'trippy', and then feeling very confused. I remember you said we could look at anxiety. Some of the confusion is apparently bringing up that old feeling of anxiety and the thoughts are like 'it's too much', 'too hard'. Do you think it would be useful explore that? Or should I just answer the previous questions?

[JonathanR]

Hi Emma

. Some of the confusion is apparently bringing up that old feeling of anxiety and the thoughts are like 'it's too much', 'too hard'. Do you think it would be useful explore that? Or should I just answer the previous questions?

Thanks for telling me about the anxiety. It's important not to ignore that and it can be addressed. Let's explore this.

Give yourself a little time to be alone and look for the feelings of anxiety. Don't judge these.feelings.

What is anxiety or fear exactly? Look at how it appears and seems to move to protect something from harm. It may be uncomfortable but it is a loyal, protective impulse, actually loving.

But it has the wrong end of the stick. If we were in the street with a vehicle hurling towards us it would be perfectly sensible to jump out of the way but here, we are just talking about no self. That 'self' is simply the perception that 'one exists'. But there never was a real self, never will be. Nobody can get hurt by simply noticing what had always been the case.

So talk with the sensation now. Tell it that you love it very much and appreciate its efforts to protect and give it a big hug. But it is perfectly safe for it to relax, because any perceived danger is not real. Encourage the feeling to relax.

See if this helps and let me know how it goes.

All the best

Jon

[EmmaNoOne]

This is all very beautiful, thank you Jon! I am feeling completely free of anxiety today. Can I still explore it by visiting the feelings/memories of it, or do I need to do it whilst anxious?

[JonathanR]

Hi Emma

. This is all very beautiful, thank you Jon! I am feeling completely free of anxiety today. Can I still explore it by visiting the feelings/memories of it, or do I need to do it whilst anxious?

That's great news. Well, it may not even be necessary to explore feelings/memories of it if anxiety has dissolved or relaxed. But if anxiety does come, that's the time to remember this way of acknowledging it and embracing it. We can see how it goes but I'd say that you probably could proceed with your inquiry quite well now.

Of course, if you feel inclined to look more deeply into anxiety then it's possible, but in the context of self-inquiry it tends to be an issue only if its persistent and quite demanding of attention.

But as far as self-inquiry goes is there something about it in particular that puts you on edge? Write as freely as you like about this.

All the best

Jon

[EmmaNoOne]

But as far as self-inquiry goes is there something about it in particular that puts you on edge? Write as freely as you like about this.

There is a lot of fear around feeling 'insane'. This has been prevalent since a teen when I was terrified of getting schizophrenia. I had some rather 'terrifying' experiences on hallucinogenics where I felt 'insane', and that I was 'stuck' that way. What self-inquiry brings up in the mind at times, is that this kind of exploration would/could lead to me realising that nothing is real and thoughts make out that that would be terrifying. I had a lot of panic a couple of years ago and the thoughts were 'what if all of a sudden, the fabric of reality just literally disintegrated in front of you?' The mind made out this would feel like insanity. So there is a very consistent theme here. I watched it yesterday just play out in the same old pattern. It feels like the thoughts deliberately want to block the exploration. I had these quite a bit a few months ago but it stopped with some other learnings and periods of deep peace where I was able to laugh so much at how ridiculous it was that so much suffering had come from believing though, then it just came back yesterday and kicked me in the ass. But I did face it yesterday and it does feel like it's losing its power. I haven't had that fear of fear, fear of feeling insane, in months. Then I just felt some fear confusion around some of these concepts and it went boom, there you go, here are all your old thoughts and sensations!

[JonathanR]

Hi Emma

. There is a lot of fear around feeling 'insane'. This has been prevalent since a teen when I was terrified of getting schizophrenia. I had some rather 'terrifying' experiences on hallucinogenics where I felt 'insane', and that I was 'stuck' that way. What self-inquiry brings up in the mind at times, is that this kind of exploration would/could lead to me realising that nothing is real and thoughts make out that that would be terrifying.

Oh yes. Thoughts do do this sometimes,or at least they can "say" this sort of thing, conjuring up some dreadful fantasy scenario of someone having a mental breakdown.

It's not uncommon for the mind to throw up resistance with this type of narrative or image but it looks like you've already seen through various narratives before,with freeing results?

. I watched it yesterday just play out in the same old pattern. It feels like the thoughts deliberately want to block the exploration. I had these quite a bit a few months ago but it stopped with some other learnings and periods of deep peace where I was able to laugh so much at how ridiculous it was that so much suffering had come from believing though, then it just came back yesterday and kicked me in the ass. But I did face it yesterday and it does feel like it's losing its power.

There you are! Well done. No self is not just seeing that there is no separate entity, it is about noticing how the illusion of a separate self arises and operates, based on narratives and stories. You're at least half way there already!

Btw...was someone really 'kicked in the ass' or did thoughts also suggest this

:-)

Jon

[EmmaNoOne]

It's not uncommon for the mind to throw up resistance with this type of narrative or image but it looks like you've already seen through various narratives before,with freeing results?

It actually feels quite 'frustrating' to experience it all because of how many times I've believed I've suffered with it, so when it's 'back', it's more like 'feel sorry for myself', 'well will this ever end', kind of thoughts. Victim thoughts. But actually, I am wayyyy less anxious and I'm getting less scared of it. I woke this morning around 4am with anxiety and I was just like, come on then. I am more often able to feel sensation and not get involved in story but 'you're going insane' story still gets believed sometimes. Well, it's more of a 'what if you go insane' - ironically whilst listening to thoughts that are quite literally insane.

it is about noticing how the illusion of a separate self arises and operates, based on narratives and stories

Question on this. Do you mean that the illusion of separate self, based in narratives and stories, is indeed separate purely because of believing the thoughts?

was someone really 'kicked in the ass' or did thoughts also suggest this

The character of the separate self who has suffered with these thoughts again, and believed them again, got kicked in the ass by them again? But actually, it was just a stream of thoughts happening which awareness observed?

[JonathanR]

Hi Emma

. when it's 'back', it's more like 'feel sorry for myself', 'well will this ever end', kind of thoughts. Victim thoughts. But actually, I am wayyyy less anxious and I'm getting less scared of it. I woke this morning around 4am with anxiety and I was just like, come on then.

Very good.

. I am more often able to feel sensation and not get involved in story but 'you're going insane' story still gets believed sometimes. Well, it's more of a 'what if you go insane' - ironically whilst listening to thoughts that are quite literally insane.

Spot on!
That whole "what if you go insane?" rap. It's so familiar. What a load of nonsense. It's almost as bad as the "what if you die?" One. And such ideas do get believed sometimes...but then they get seen through again too!

I know these so well. I mean, ok, let's let it happen then. Let's "go insane" ha ha! Do your worst!

(Disclaimer... I'm not actually suggesting this. Its a parody)

At some point hunger will appear and things could get quite boring, very boring actually. It'll be tea time and we will still be raving around for no reason whilst everyone else is eating dinner..:-)

Anyway... Good work on the fear front!

. Do you mean that the illusion of separate self, based in narratives and stories, is indeed separate purely because of believing the thoughts?

Oo! Thats an interesting idea. Well you will answer this yourself if you investigate it.

. The character of the separate self who has suffered with these thoughts again, and believed them again, got kicked in the ass by them again? But actually, it was just a stream of thoughts happening which awareness observed?

Yes and awareness wasn't separate from anything either, or was it?

All the best

Jon

[EmmaNoOne]

I know these so well. I mean, ok, let's let it happen then. Let's "go insane" ha ha! Do your worst!

That's the thing, would you even know? Mind just makes up a story about what it would be like but it has no idea, no frame of reference, just a bunch of 'what if's' and assumptions and fear!

Oo! Thats an interesting idea. Well you will answer this yourself if you investigate it.

So the stories aren't real because absolute awareness just observes what's happening. Belief in their truth is what creates a very convincing separate identity that seems very individual and different

Yes and awareness wasn't separate from anything either, or was it?

There is only pure awareness that observes everything and is in us all having these apparent experiences?

[JonathanR]

Hi Emma

. That's the thing, would you even know? Mind just makes up a story about what it would be like but it has no idea, no frame of reference, just a bunch of 'what if's' and assumptions and fear!

So true!

And "mind". Again a fun thing to try is to see if it is possible to find "the mind", beyond the term, beyond the label .

. So the stories aren't real because absolute awareness just observes what's happening

I'm not sure that is entirely how things are. Perhaps the stories aren't real because they are simply false? They are noticed, but I'm not finding something that notices them from a separate viewpoint.

. There is only pure awareness that observes everything and is in us all having these apparent experiences?

I'm not arguing against awareness. But from experience, and it's important that you check this out, there is no separate observer, Awareness IS, ... that's all.

All the best

Jon

[EmmaNoOne]

And "mind". Again a fun thing to try is to see if it is possible to find "the mind", beyond the term, beyond the label

Haha this is very good. What even is the mind? You cannot find it, it's not a thing. I guess it's a concept, a label, absolute nothingness really

I'm not sure that is entirely how things are. Perhaps the stories aren't real because they are simply false? They are noticed, but I'm not finding something that notices them from a separate viewpoint

.

Do you mean the meaning assigned is false, because they just are and are simply noticed? And then judged as good or bad by thoughts?

there is no separate observer, Awareness IS, ... that's all.

So each of us doesn't have THE awareness that just is, in our apparent separate bodies? Because this is hard to grasp. I am not aware of observing through others eyes or stories, I am only aware that there is something observing in this apparent body/story, that is not what I thought it was - a personality, a character. It was thinking about thoughts that lead me to, hold on, how am I aware of thoughts? And how do they arise? Because I definitely don't decide to think them. ' There is no separate observer, awareness IS '. Can you elaborate?

[JonathanR]

. So the stories aren't real because absolute awareness just observes what's happening

Actually Emma, could you say a bit more about what you mean here, exactly? It's important that I understand what you're saying before responding..

. So each of us doesn't have THE awareness that just is, in our apparent separate bodies? Because this is hard to grasp.

Is there's a belief that "you" are "inside" somewhere?

. I am not aware of observing through others eyes or stories, I am only aware that there is something observing in this apparent body/story,

Are you saying that "you" are seeing through eyes hearing through ears and so on?

You do seem to be saying that "something" is "observing" from inside somewhere , and through eyes.

You say that others "observe through eyes" but how is this known? Is this based on first hand experience (of their experience) or on what has been learned or what is imagined about others?

I realise I'm chucking quite a lot at you with this post but its all good. Stick with the inquiry.

Jon

[EmmaNoOne]

Actually Emma, could you say a bit more about what you mean here, exactly? It's important that I understand what you're saying before responding..

I think I meant, that it's not real because we assign meaning to stories, whereas what is unfolding is just unfolding, and it is the narration that is believed that creates an experience of the story, it belonging to the individual 'experiencing it' and becomes part of the character, rather than events just unfolding and being observed by awareness.

Is there's a belief that "you" are "inside" somewhere?

I am trying to grasp that 'I' am not an 'I' but it's very engrained to be 'Emma'. I do still feel like a me I guess, whilst trying to look at these concepts. I think I mentioned about noticing the stream of thoughts and having no control over them seeming to point to there being an observer but it is seemingly challenging to get to full acceptance of 'no self'. So far ;)

Are you saying that "you" are seeing through eyes hearing through ears and so on?

well it feels like a me, but I am getting at that awareness is seeing through eyes and hearing through ears rather than 'Emma'

You do seem to be saying that "something" is "observing" from inside somewhere , and through eyes.

Yes, this is what I am saying, something is observing. Perhaps from inside isn't the right way to look at it, but it's the way it feels.

You say that others "observe through eyes" but how is this known? Is this based on first hand experience (of their experience) or on what has been learned or what is imagined about others?

Well I guess it's actually a huge assumption based on what I have believed 'my' experience to be. But what are others if they are not also oneness or awareness or whatever we all are, having an experience?

[JonathanR]

Hi Emma

. I think I meant, that it's not real because we assign meaning to stories, whereas what is unfolding is just unfolding, and it is the narration that is believed that creates an experience of the story, it belonging to the individual 'experiencing it' and becomes part of the character, rather than events just unfolding and being observed by awareness.

Oh. Yes. That's quite a clear statement. Thanks.

. You do seem to be saying that "something" is "observing" from inside somewhere , and through eyes.

Yes, this is what I am saying, something is observing. Perhaps from inside isn't the right way to look at it, but it's the way it feels.

Well we should investigate this. I think that we already did, but not enough. Here is an exercise. Please do it for real ,(dont rely on thinking about it without actually doing it).


The words on this screen are seen. No doubt about it.

But what is doing the seeing.?

Look right here and now at the experience.

Is there an experience of "eyes seeing" ? Is that the actual experience?

If not eyes, is there an experience of "body doing seeing" ?

Or even "brain doing seeing".

Basically find out what's actually going on with seeing. Don't take anything on hearsay but from immediate experience.

Let me know how this goes?

. Well I guess it's actually a huge assumption based on what I have believed 'my' experience to be. But what are others if they are not also oneness or awareness or whatever we all are, having an experience?

It is an assumption. Have you ever had the experience of being someone else and observing through their eyes?

Is there even an "observer observing" right now?

Take a look.


All the best

Jon