Keeping It Simple

[Bluejay]

It's various sensations. I used eyeballs here intending that but to be specific it's tightness, pressure, a sense of "location" (thought?) and "eyeballs" the thought. Or "the eyeballs are seeing this"

You have a few things here to investigate:

- Sense of location as a mental image, is that the eyeballs?
- The words 'eyeballs are seeing this, is that the eyeballs?
- Sensations that feel like eyes, are those the eyeballs?

Did you already do the unfindable inquiry on the body? Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbCAdhtMODE

I was downplaying the audio aspect of my thoughts, and so leaving a fair bit of them out of actual investigation. Audio thoughts were driving the sense of a narrator, especially when thinking of how to describe experience in these posts, but being somehow seen as separate from the thoughts I was investigating.

Ah, got it!

I have noticed this once or twice naturally but it hasn't fully clicked, for sure. I thought it once as "the looking for the I creates the I where it looks"

Yes, it can become circular if thought is used to do the inquiry. That's why the focus on direct experience is so important.

I'll do this today. Is this similar to looking for the looker or different in some way? I have been doing that.

You could approach more as in the palm flipping and drinks exercises (i.e. is there a doer).

So where does the decision come from to move attention, to focus, to inquire?

Is there control over it, or does it just happen?

At this point it might be productive to start inquiring during the day, specifically at doing/deciding.

A few examples of places:

- When choosing what to eat, find if there is something deciding?
- When getting out of bed, what decides when to get up?
- When choosing clothes / taking off clothes
- When to go to bed
- When to 'spontaneously' inquire and focus on this process

Is there a someone deciding all this, are you doing it, or is it all genetics, environment, experiences, and so on?

[gbeene]

Is there a someone deciding all this, are you doing it, or is it all genetics, environment, experiences, and so on?

I'll respond to the rest tomorrow but do you have any tips on how to consider that list bit of perspective without thought. I have no direct experience of my genetics, life history, and so forth.


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[Bluejay]

I'll respond to the rest tomorrow but do you have any tips on how to consider that list bit of perspective without thought. I have no direct experience of my genetics, life history, and so forth.

Sorry for the lack of clarity.

The genetics/history would be more of an intellectual contemplation. You would look for when a decision is made, what influences it, and what a decision even is.

And then you do the direct experience inquiry to see if you can find a decider/chooser.

Or the other way around, whichever you prefer. Using these both together during the day can be potent.

[gbeene]

- Sense of location as a mental image, is that the eyeballs?
- The words 'eyeballs are seeing this, is that the eyeballs?
- Sensations that feel like eyes, are those the eyeballs?

Did you already do the unfindable inquiry on the body? Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbCAdhtMODE

I hadn't done this yet, for some reason I thought the first one was the only applicable one so far. I did this tonight, listened to it like a guided meditation.

Image of feet, words "feet" weren't the "feet". Blobby sensations weren't the feet. Mental image location of feet weren't the feet.

Examining a felt sense of the boundary of the body was interesting. Tried to see where boundaries actually existed between sensations and space and couldn't find any besides thoughts about the same. Tried doing the same for butt to bench which was a bit stickier. The sensation felt more like a boundary even though I intellectually understood I probably wouldn't find one upon further looking.

Spent some time trying to just relax thoughts and images and watch what was happening. Asked "what is witnessing this experience?" a few times. Thoughts and sensations answered whenever I asked.[/quote]

You could approach more as in the palm flipping and drinks exercises (i.e. is there a doer).

So where does the decision come from to move attention, to focus, to inquire?

Is there control over it, or does it just happen?

"Could this "do"" is sort of my unfindable inquiry question instead of "Is that it?". Do you think that's a limited question?

In direct experience the decision to move attention, type or not type, focus, ask questions, just happens. There's no little gnome pulling a lever. There are just thoughts and sensations happening. I've sort of stopped trying to argue on the side of there being a doer, but I think this one probably goes deep, so I am still trying to investigate it as I remember to.

At this point it might be productive to start inquiring during the day, specifically at doing/deciding.

A few examples of places:

- When choosing what to eat, find if there is something deciding?
- When getting out of bed, what decides when to get up?
- When choosing clothes / taking off clothes
- When to go to bed
- When to 'spontaneously' inquire and focus on this process

Is there a someone deciding all this, are you doing it, or is it all genetics, environment, experiences, and so on?

It's tougher to see the lack of a doer when in my daily motion, so agreed that this is a good area to keep exploring.


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[Bluejay]

Examining a felt sense of the boundary of the body was interesting. Tried to see where boundaries actually existed between sensations and space and couldn't find any besides thoughts about the same. Tried doing the same for butt to bench which was a bit stickier. The sensation felt more like a boundary even though I intellectually understood I probably wouldn't find one upon further looking.

For butt to bench, focus on just the sensations. Can you feel the bench, or are you just feeling sensations? I recommend sitting with this for 10-15 minutes. Concentrate on the sensations until things start to shift (sense of location etc changes).

Spent some time trying to just relax thoughts and images and watch what was happening. Asked "what is witnessing this experience?" a few times. Thoughts and sensations answered whenever I asked.

Yup, the "I" might as well be the cookie monster, because it's nowhere to be found, except in thoughts.

You might enjoy this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYnKMggFxfE

"Could this "do"" is sort of my unfindable inquiry question instead of "Is that it?". Do you think that's a limited question?

Try it! Trust your 'intuition' on this. The wording or approach that works for you is likely going to be different than what I suggest. Everything I share is more of a jumping off point.

I've sort of stopped trying to argue on the side of there being a doer, but I think this one probably goes deep, so I am still trying to investigate it as I remember to.

Can you share more detail about this?

Is it still the looker flying around? Is there an expectation that thoughts should change?

It's tougher to see the lack of a doer when in my daily motion, so agreed that this is a good area to keep exploring.

If it helps, and if you are able, stop for 1-2 minutes to check if there's a doer, then do the next task.

For example, when you're about to go to the fridge, see if you make the urge happen to finally move (like in palm flipping), or if it just happens.

At this point it comes down to looking over and over even if you know intellectually.

[gbeene]

Can you share more detail about this?

Is it still the looker flying around? Is there an expectation that thoughts should change?

Yeah I think there's still a looker. There is an expectation, though. That something would change, that there would be a "moment", and that I would know clearly (beyond doubt) that something had changed. Feel a bit sheepish saying it but I don't think I know if I'd expect thoughts to change or not, I think I do, but I probably still don't understand that space enough to say. It seems like they'd have to. I've tried to do the unfindable inquiry on future objects here to limited success (so far) so will keep going.

If it helps, and if you are able, stop for 1-2 minutes to check if there's a doer, then do the next task.

For example, when you're about to go to the fridge, see if you make the urge happen to finally move (like in palm flipping), or if it just happens.

At this point it comes down to looking over and over even if you know intellectually.

I'll keep going on this and the other stuff up above in the post. How does a pointer relationship look when it seems like I may have to spend a while in the trenches on this stuff?


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[Bluejay]

Yeah I think there's still a looker. There is an expectation, though. That something would change, that there would be a "moment", and that I would know clearly (beyond doubt) that something had changed. Feel a bit sheepish saying it but I don't think I know if I'd expect thoughts to change or not, I think I do, but I probably still don't understand that space enough to say. It seems like they'd have to. I've tried to do the unfindable inquiry on future objects here to limited success (so far) so will keep going.

This is extremely common. Almost everyone has some hidden expectation that something will change or amazing things will happen, so please do share anything like this that comes up. It's the stuff we don't want to share that are the most essential.

When you look inside, do you find borders, or is everything made of the same 'stuff'?

How does a pointer relationship look when it seems like I may have to spend a while in the trenches on this stuff?

Not entirely clear on what you mean here. Do you mean how this conversation will go if it 'drags' out? :)

[gbeene]

[wuote]Not entirely clear on what you mean here. Do you mean how this conversation will go if it 'drags' out? :)[/quote]
Yeah, feel a bit self conscious about taking up your time, future thoughts about asking the same questions repeatedly, treading the same water...


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[Bluejay]

Yeah, feel a bit self conscious about taking up your time, future thoughts about asking the same questions repeatedly, treading the same water...

No need to worry about that at all. I enjoy doing this.

It's the repetition that often makes a difference, so if the same question comes up, ask it again. Sometimes I'll ask the same question again.

It's rarely enough to look and see once that there's no inherent self. The body has to get it, and for that to happen it seemingly often takes repeated looking.

[gbeene]

Thanks for the support!

When you look inside, do you find borders, or is everything made of the same 'stuff'?
Looking inside there are thoughts, sensations, and mental images/sounds. It does feel like there is a persistent mental image of myself, the looker, etc... sometimes it feels like I am able to relax into an open feeling and see things as empty or as not-a-doer or as not-"it" but then it's like I remember, oh yeah! What's looking at this? and poof, there is the looker.

it is a bit tricky to see what exactly the looker is made of as far as its constituent parts.

I think in the last day or two a couple meta-things I've noticed, when trying to look for limiting beliefs, is that there is some deeper thought that I am doing this wrong, or that I am not understanding it. Instead of "I can do it", it felt helpful and relieving to say or feel something like, but not exactly, "I'm doing just fine" or "I'm not struggling" or "I am doing it".

I also am starting to get a sense, while looking for a doer and seeing that there can't be anything happening that ISN'T sensations, thoughts, images, sounds -- I get a feeling like this is easier, or maybe simpler, than I've been feeling like it needs to be. Like.... that's it. It's not like I am looking at direct experience and then need to do a mental suplex to experience to flip the camera around. It's just that there's nothing here that isn't what's here... if that makes sense.

[gbeene]

Reposting cause I goofed the quote.

Thanks for the support!

When you look inside, do you find borders, or is everything made of the same 'stuff'?

Looking inside there are thoughts, sensations, and mental images/sounds. It does feel like there is a persistent mental image of myself, the looker, etc... sometimes it feels like I am able to relax into an open feeling and see things as empty or as not-a-doer or as not-"it" but then it's like I remember, oh yeah! What's looking at this? and poof, there is the looker.

it is a bit tricky to see what exactly the looker is made of as far as its constituent parts.

I think in the last day or two a couple meta-things I've noticed, when trying to look for limiting beliefs, is that there is some deeper thought that I am doing this wrong, or that I am not understanding it. Instead of "I can do it", it felt helpful and relieving to say or feel something like, but not exactly, "I'm doing just fine" or "I'm not struggling" or "I am doing it".

I also am starting to get a sense, while looking for a doer and seeing that there can't be anything happening that ISN'T sensations, thoughts, images, sounds -- I get a feeling like this is easier, or maybe simpler, than I've been feeling like it needs to be. Like.... that's it. It's not like I am looking at direct experience and then need to do a mental suplex to experience to flip the camera around. It's just that there's nothing here that isn't what's here... if that makes sense.
[/quote]

[Bluejay]

I think in the last day or two a couple meta-things I've noticed, when trying to look for limiting beliefs, is that there is some deeper thought that I am doing this wrong, or that I am not understanding it. Instead of "I can do it", it felt helpful and relieving to say or feel something like, but not exactly, "I'm doing just fine" or "I'm not struggling" or "I am doing it".

Yup, you can flip it around and say those, and remember to feel whatever objections/emotions rise up.

What's looking at this? and poof, there is the looker. it is a bit tricky to see what exactly the looker is made of as far as its constituent parts.

What makes it tricky? How is it known that the looker is there?

It is always one of the senses or thought.

Sensations are appearing in a sequence that are being labeled different things.

So if thought wasn't there, the only thing that would be experienced would be sensation in one spot, and then in the next moment, sensations in another spot.

Not trying to tell you how it is. Instead, describing it. Maybe it'll unlock something.

I also am starting to get a sense, while looking for a doer and seeing that there can't be anything happening that ISN'T sensations, thoughts, images, sounds -- I get a feeling like this is easier, or maybe simpler, than I've been feeling like it needs to be. Like.... that's it. It's not like I am looking at direct experience and then need to do a mental suplex to experience to flip the camera around. It's just that there's nothing here that isn't what's here... if that makes sense.

This is so simple that almost everyone misses it. It's hiding in plain sight as it is often said. When it comes down to it, it doesn't really matter if there's a mental image of a camera.

What matters is... are you controlling any of this? Are you making the mental image of a camera appear?

And here are a few simple questions:

Are you thoughts or a thought?
Are you an image?
Are you sensations or a sensation?
Are you sounds that come and go?
Are you a smell or a taste?
If no, then what is left? (note that thoughts will try to throw up an image and say "You are awareness!")

If thought says 'I am all of it', then you should be able to find something concrete in the present moment, not just senses that arise and fall away.

What is found in this moment?
What is not found?

[gbeene]

Morning Henri! The last day I seem to be bumping up against a resistance wall a bit, the tricky kind where it just feels easier and more desirable to... do something else. I wouldn't say it's stopping me per Se, just hasn't been the deepest exploration over the last 24hr.

What makes it tricky? How is it known that the looker is there?

It is always one of the senses or thought.

Sensations are appearing in a sequence that are being labeled different things.

So if thought wasn't there, the only thing that would be experienced would be sensation in one spot, and then in the next moment, sensations in another spot.

Not trying to tell you how it is. Instead, describing it. Maybe it'll unlock something.

"What would this be if thought wasn't here" seems like an interesting inquiry to explore for this. The thing that feels tricky with the looker is how quickly and subtly it becomes the next thing, and I also feel like there is something like a mental image that isn't exactly a mental image that is hard for me to see. It's still just a thought but it seems like there is the sensation that the looker is claiming but then there's an impression that doesn't seem quite like a mental sound and also not a clear mental image. I think this isn't as complicated in reality as it feels, and is one of those instances of the doer trying to do.

What matters is... are you controlling any of this? Are you making the mental image of a camera appear?

And here are a few simple questions:

Are you thoughts or a thought?
Are you an image?
Are you sensations or a sensation?
Are you sounds that come and go?
Are you a smell or a taste?
If no, then what is left? (note that thoughts will try to throw up an image and say "You are awareness!")

If thought says 'I am all of it', then you should be able to find something concrete in the present moment, not just senses that arise and fall away.

What is found in this moment?
What is not found?

The thought answering these questions feels worth continuing to chase. I can more or less get to the "what is left?" But then the "well, me, duh" thought pops in. I see it as a thought but then the seeing of that thought claims the I. And then I end up in a little tail-chasing thought process until I notice I'm thinking again.


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[Bluejay]

Hi Geoff!

The last day I seem to be bumping up against a resistance wall a bit, the tricky kind where it just feels easier and more desirable to... do something else. I wouldn't say it's stopping me per Se, just hasn't been the deepest exploration over the last 24hr.

Did you do Ilona's deep looking video on this? Usually there's gold there if there's a lot of wanting to distract.

Here are some questions to explore:

- What is being protected?
- Does it still need to be protected?
- If no longer needed, does it want to leave?
- If yes, feel it out
- If no, ask what feeling/resistance wants to tell you

"What would this be if thought wasn't here" seems like an interesting inquiry to explore for this. The thing that feels tricky with the looker is how quickly and subtly it becomes the next thing, and I also feel like there is something like a mental image that isn't exactly a mental image that is hard for me to see. It's still just a thought but it seems like there is the sensation that the looker is claiming but then there's an impression that doesn't seem quite like a mental sound and also not a clear mental image. I think this isn't as complicated in reality as it feels, and is one of those instances of the doer trying to do.

Yes. Whenever things start seeming complicated, that's usually thought.

What do you feel is the best approach here?

This question is to help you tune into your 'intuition'.

The thought answering these questions feels worth continuing to chase. I can more or less get to the "what is left?" But then the "well, me, duh" thought pops in. I see it as a thought but then the seeing of that thought claims the I. And then I end up in a little tail-chasing thought process until I notice I'm thinking again.

With the thought 'well, me, duh' you keep doing the unfindable inquiry. If it's so obvious, then the thought should refer to something obvious, right?

The thought clearly isn't the I, so where is it?

Part of the problem may be that you are chasing thoughts. Who cares about what thoughts say? Only thoughts can pretend to care about thoughts.

Instead, stay anchored in the senses. What's here now?

If a thought comes with another 'me' thought, what is it referring to, and who is receiving the thought?

Why do you believe the thought that says 'well, me, duh'? Is there fear that something bad will happen if you stop believing thoughts?

If so, what if you did it anyway?

[gbeene]

Morning!

Did you do Ilona's deep looking video on this? Usually there's gold there if there's a lot of wanting to distract.

Here are some questions to explore:

- What is being protected?
- Does it still need to be protected?
- If no longer needed, does it want to leave?
- If yes, feel it out
- If no, ask what feeling/resistance wants to tell you

I hadn't done it yet, but did it yesterday. The fear feeling arose and eventually it revealed itself as something like a sense of separation... like "armor" keeping the vulnerable-but-authentic-childhood-Geoff safe from the world that could hurt it (and has). The fear feeling moved from my stomach to my heart and then when I saw the above, it dissipated! And then I laughed, it was nice. And then it snapped back around my heart, lol. Talking about it at therapy later that day, my therapist said she thinks I have a deep sense of non-belonging... "alone" in a way. Seems like a thing to continue trying to have "speak to me" via the deep looking, without trying to turn that into a side project, I guess.

Yes. Whenever things start seeming complicated, that's usually thought.

What do you feel is the best approach here?

This question is to help you tune into your 'intuition'.

Not sure. I think maybe more intentional time examining thoughts / thought space as "not me" and "not the doer" is probably the thing to keep wedging some space in for this.

With the thought 'well, me, duh' you keep doing the unfindable inquiry. If it's so obvious, then the thought should refer to something obvious, right?

The thought clearly isn't the I, so where is it?

Part of the problem may be that you are chasing thoughts. Who cares about what thoughts say? Only thoughts can pretend to care about thoughts.

Instead, stay anchored in the senses. What's here now?

If a thought comes with another 'me' thought, what is it referring to, and who is receiving the thought?

Why do you believe the thought that says 'well, me, duh'? Is there fear that something bad will happen if you stop believing thoughts?

If so, what if you did it anyway?

I agree with all of the above, it seems hard to stop believing thoughts, though. Like I can have the thought "I am not believing you" but otherwise it's just sort of like...trying to ignore them? Or accept that they're there but not get pulled farther down the story? I can do the unfindable inquiry to see that a specific thought isn't "it" or "me" or a "doer" but by the time I'm doing the inquiry it's already shifted to the next thing. Like whack-a-mole.