Doubt obscuring clarity

[CherylVT]

Dear Carla,

Excellent!

One of the things that veils DE is the phenomena of labeling

Here is something Ilona wrote about labeling
https://markedeternal.blogspot.com/search?q=labels

Let’s use DE with seeing and hearing for a start

As you are sitting responding to this post describe……
What are you are seeing? (without labels.)


What are you are hearing? (without labels.)

Love,
Cheryl

[CJ10]

Dear Cheryl,

Here is something Ilona wrote about labeling
https://markedeternal.blogspot.com/search?q=labels

Thank you for this.

What are you are seeing? (without labels.)

Seeing the colours of the phone.
Seeing the shape of words.
Seeing fingers on the phone.
Seeing the colours and shapes of the room.

What are you are hearing? (without labels.)

Hearing the sound of the fan.
Hearing the tick of the clock.
Hearing the sound of breathing.

Carla :-)

[CherylVT]

Dear Carla,

Well, those were tricky questions.

Seeing the shape of words.
Seeing fingers on the phone.
Seeing the colours and shapes of the room.

Actually, seeing = color and only color.
Shapes are concepts.

Here's a blog post from Goran Backlund, which describes seeing = color.

http://www.uncoveringlife.com/shift-enl ... /#more-879

Looking at this so-called lemon slice, what is really seen?




Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Love
Cheryl

[CJ10]

Dear Cheryl,

http://www.uncoveringlife.com/shift-enl ... /#more-879

Thank you for this article, and the clarification. I intuitively used to do a practice similar to what this author describes but stopped because it felt like I was "trying" too hard. It is something I will go back to, thank you.

Looking at this so-called lemon slice, what is really seen?

Just colour.

Report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Having morning cup of tea.
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling tea, simply=smell
Feeling the warmth of the tea, simply = sensation
Tasting the tea, simply = taste
Hearing the water pour into the cup, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the tea, simply = thought


Cuddling guinea pigs
Seeing the guinea pig, simply= image/colour
Smelling the guinea pig, simply=smell
Feeling guinea pig hair, simply = sensation
Hearing her eating, simply = sound
Thought about holding the guinea pig, simply = thought


Preparing my daughter's food.
Seeing the packet, simply= image/colour
Smelling the soup, simply=smell
Feeling the packet, simply = sensation
Hearing the soup pouring, simply = sound
Thought about pouring the soup, simply = thought

Carla :-)

[CherylVT]

Dear Carla,

I intuitively used to do a practice similar to what this author describes but stopped because it felt like I was "trying" too hard.

It is amazing that intuition sometimes "knows" more than our mind knows. Yes, sticking like glue to DE can feel like trying too hard. To me, it felt like wearing a corset. Yet this is the technique that yields results. So thanks for sticking to it.

For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.

A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is aware of it?
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Where do thoughts appear from?
Do they appear randomly or in a structured way?
Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay?
Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Watch like a hawk.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Can you stop them midway?
How long does that last?
Test it for the fun of exploration.
Are they 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

Love
Cheryl

[CJ10]

Dear Cheryl,

A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is aware of it?

No. Just another thought saying, "I'm aware of this thought". But that's just another thought.

Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?

No. Just another thought that says, "I thought that". But it's just a random thought.

Where do thoughts appear from?

There doesn't seem a place, they are happening like sound/seeing/feeling etc are happening.

Do they appear randomly or in a structured way?

They are random but seem structured around something in direct experience. For example if I look at the guinea pig cage, thoughts will arise about that but the thoughts that do arise are random.

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay?

No. They all go.

Can the flow of thoughts be changed?

No, it's random. It can have the appearance of changing the flow when the thought, "I'm going to change what I'm thinking about" arises but that thought in itself is random and either does or doesn't arise.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?

No.

Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?

No.

Can you stop them midway?

It felt like I could stop them, but the stopping was just another thought saying I'm stopping them so no I couldn't stop them it just turned into a thought saying I was stopping them. Turning attention to DE though makes thought less frequent and quieter.

How long does that last?

Nothing stopped.

Test it for the fun of exploration.
Are they 100% true?

No. Not at all and the longer this is done the more "colorful" the thoughts get.

What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

There's nothing other than direct experience happening.

Carla :-)

[CherylVT]

Dear Carla,

You can see “body” is a very complex label describing many colours, sensations, tastes, etc. You can see how the illusion of an "I" is supported through this label. Once you have a ‘body’ it’s not that far to have an owner of the 'body'.
So, is there an owner of the 'body', is there a center to which sensations are happening?
Is there a center to which experiences are happening?

Can the "body" do things?
Can a label do things? ("At some point the body gets up and goes to make food or eat")

Love,
Cheryl

[CJ10]

Dear Cheryl,

So, is there an owner of the 'body', is there a center to which sensations are happening?

No. Body is a label, "my body" a label also. No centre for sensations. This has been most obvious when touching the back of my head. Previously it would have felt like "behind me" with my head being the centre of sensations. Now touching the back of my head is sensation without location. Lying my head on the pillow is just sensation without location. The sensations that make up the label body are all just sensation without location.

Is there a center to which experiences are happening?

No. It used to feel like my body, in my head, behind my eyes were centre of experience. But now my body, my head, behind my eyes are just sensations and seeing is just happening.

Can the "body" do things?

Only with thoughts and a story. Otherwise it's just sensations happening.

Can a label do things? ("At some point the body gets up and goes to make food or eat")

No. Body making/eating food is just feeling, smelling, tasting, seeing.

The answers to these (and previous) questions are seen as I write them when I sit to actually look but when getting up and continuing with my day it doesn't stay clear in the same way. It's seen again when I look, but it's almost like I forget what is seen until I look again.

Carla :-)

[CherylVT]

Dear Carla,

when getting up and continuing with my day it doesn't stay clear in the same way. It's seen again when I look, but it's almost like I forget what is seen until I look again.

Yes, of course. We have decades of training in I-me-mine, so a few insights don't make much of a dent in the habits, the neurons that have fired together for years and are now wired together.
Consider setting a mindfulness bell--random is best because the mind habituates to every xx minutes. When you hear the mindfulness bell, pause, look, and sink into the looking for up to a minute before you continue your day. In other words, increase the number of times per day that you "look again."

Here is another exercise to watch your thoughts:

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.
Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are
saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment
instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

The contents of thought cannot be known except by other thoughts.
It requires other thoughts to give that thought meaning.

Love,
Cheryl

[CJ10]

Hi Cheryl,

Our family is travelling to Australia this week so my replies may be a little inconsistent for a bit. I don't think I can reply every day. We should be settled by Sunday. I will be in Australian Eastern Standard Time for the next 6 weeks, and able to resume daily communication.

Carla :-)

[CherylVT]

Thanks for letting me know Carla.
Have a wonderful time!

I will be on retreat starting tomorrow until Sunday--which is Monday in Australia, i believe. So our timing is perfect!

If you are near Lemon Passage, you could call on Vince Schubert who has been guiding for LU for 10 years. He runs an LU "after-care" Zoom every Monday at 6 a.m. Australia time.

Have fun,
Cheryl

[CJ10]

Hi Cheryl,

I hope you enjoyed retreat! Apologies for the delay, it took a bit for our family to adjust to the time zone.

Where are they coming from and going to?

I don't know. They appear and disappear in the same way sound, sensation etc does.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment
instead?

No.

Can you predict your next thought?

No.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No. The supposed act of trying is a thought.

Carla :-)

[CherylVT]

Good to hear from you Carla!

Now, back to work.
Do senses exist physically as receivers/detectors? How is that observed? Are there eyes, ears, mouth…?
Let me ask again, is there a seer who sees colour or just seeing?


Also, is there a clear boundary between seeing, hearing, tasting, etc? Or just thought describes them as separate.
Can you separate the hearing from the seeing? Even with your eyes closed you still see colour. Are there separate senses or just experiencing?

There is a knowing of experience but that knowing cannot be isolated because it actually IS that experience (seeing, hearing etc) – it’s all included, inseparable. Even with eyes closed there is still seeing, sensations, sound – aliveness. Only thought comes and creates separate things trying to describe the “details” and creating objects and subjects in the process. Like the knowing of seeing (awareness) which sees the colours – a noun (subject), verb (action) and another noun (object) – it looks more like language than reality, don’t you think?

Reality is very simple – it’s just THIS, which includes all – seeing_hearing_tasting_sensing_smelling_thinking_knowing of it. And it’s all happening RIGHT NOW.

So, is the knowing of it an agency or an attribute?

if the knowing of experience is an entity/agent or quale. Anyway, indivisible.
If there is an agent then there is doer-ship, and down we go the rabbit hole.

Love,
Cheryl

[CJ10]

Hi Cheryl,
Happy to be back to work :-)

Do senses exist physically as receivers/detectors?

No.

How is that observed?

The only way to create a receiver is through the combination of sensation and thought. The sensations/seeing of fingers along with the thoughts I am touching/ these are my fingers. Without thought (it's also easiest with eyes closed) there are just the sensations but nothing to receive/detect them. They aren't separate so don't need to be received or detected.

Are there eyes, ears, mouth…?

No. There are just labels attached to sensations. When I close my eyes there are the sensations that are labeled as eye lids and the change in colors that are labeled darkness.

Let me ask again, is there a seer who sees colour or just seeing?

No. There's just seeing.

Also, is there a clear boundary between seeing, hearing, tasting, etc? Or just thought describes them as separate.

Just thoughts that describe them as separate.

Can you separate the hearing from the seeing?

No. Only with thought.

Even with your eyes closed you still see colour. Are there separate senses or just experiencing?

Just experiencing.

It looks more like language than reality, don’t you think?

Yes. There's a sense of subject object only appearing when language is applied.

So, is the knowing of it an agency or an attribute?

This isn't clear.

[CherylVT]

Dear Carla,

So good that you can find time to respond while you are traveling with your family, and, i assume, visiting friends and more family.

So, is the knowing of it [separate senses or just experiencing] an agency or an attribute?
This isn't clear.

This question is angling toward any subtle sense of agency where the "I" may be hiding.
Is the knowing an aspect of agency? e.g., I know this. My senses sense this.

Or is the knowing an attribute? That is, the knowing is attributed to a self, but, heh heh, you've seen through the tricks of the illusion of self.

Now, let’s have a look at the idea of control, choice and decisions. Please explore the two exercises below and report your findings.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

2. Put two objects that you like in front of you (e.g. a cup of coffee and a glass of juice), then pick up one or the other, while paying attention to the whole process of choosing.
Watch like a hawk. Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over.

If there is ‘here’ or ‘there’, there must be a refence point, right? Without center, “I” there is no reference point, hence no location. ‘Location’ (left, right, up, down, etc.) is a label, ‘here’ and ‘there’ are labels for various things (hearing, seeing, sensing).

So, is there a choice or just cause and effect playing out?

Love,
Cheryl