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[Russ84]

Hi Jeff, I'm working on answering these now and will try to finish them today.

[Russ84]

Hi Jeff,

I've answered as best I can, it was a little tricky and I hope I didn't confuse any of the questions. This was helpful in noticing more thoughts as thoughts.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

There is the experience of seeing and then a audible thought of 'green' when the word is read and then a visual thought of a green colour.

Is the colour red ‘experienced’, or is the colour green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

A visual thought of a shade of that colour is experienced which follows the audible thought of the label.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

No it seems every time the label green is noticed there is a visual thought that follows, it never points to what is experienced in the moment like if I'm seeing a green object it still brings up a visual thought of another shade of green.

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

I think like above it just overlays the experience, neither green or red are associated with the actual experience of the colour red.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

No, but it took a bit of work to see as when the label 'bad' was used there was a visual image of the red colour being brighter that I initially confused with reality instead of just a thought.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

The labels don't have any affect, but as above it took awhile to distinguish the visual thoughts from 'reality'.

[AwayKen127]

I just want to check something, Jerry. Are you red-green colour-blind?

[AwayKen127]

If you are not colour-blind, please answer these questions again, as simply as possible:

Is the colour red ‘experienced’, or is the colour green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

I think like above it just overlays the experience, neither green or red are associated with the actual experience of the colour red.

I like your answer here.
Jeff

[Russ84]

Hi Jeff,

I'm not colour blind, I'll try again with my answers

Is the colour red ‘experienced’, or is the colour green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Yes there are colours experienced when seeing but not sure if they are experienced as the label suggest, not sure what that means or how to interpret it?

Does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

I think so, I don't think the label is pointing directly to the exact colour being experienced? Again not sure if I'm interpreting the question correctly, it's a little confusing to me right now.

[AwayKen127]

Hi Jerry,
I can't understand why these questions are not perfectly clear, so I suggest we move on to something else.

Thought Exercise

1. Can you find an inherent self anywhere, outside of thought?

2. Can thought experience thought? Can thought experience anything? (Thought is so very overrated - by thought).

3. Does thought make any contact with other kinds of sense experience, such as sounds or sensations – or are they totally separate from each other?

4. For a moment take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment: 
Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour.
Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them.
And notice that you're not making them happen.
You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of.
And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience.
You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it. You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.

5. The story of "me’ can seem to have continuity. Is it really continuous? Or are there simply isolated thoughts that never can truly touch each other, some of them claiming that there's one continuous story?

6. Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this? Isn’t a thought only known as it appears? In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?

7. Sit quietly and pay close attention to your thoughts for 20 minutes. Notice that thoughts seem to pop out of nowhere and have no obvious cause. They are a total surprise and you can find no cause or reason for their appearance. It should be obvious you were not involved in any way in the creation of these thoughts.

8. Do you have unpleasant thoughts? Do you want to have them? If you had any control over thoughts, don’t you think you would choose not to think such thoughts at all? Wouldn’t you be able to choose never to have thoughts that seem to make you unhappy?

9. When we look very closely and precisely we come to see that “me” thoughts only refer to other “me” thoughts, not to an actual abiding “me.” Observe thoughts with precision; can you ever find a ‘me’ within the “me” thoughts and feelings, or just a sense of me?
10. Pay attention to mental activity – to thoughts and images in the mind. Where are they arising? Are they inside something? Are they central to you, or are they peripheral? Do they leave any trace when they have gone?

[Russ84]

Hi Jeff I'll go over these exercises and report back

[Russ84]

Hi Jeff up to exercise 6 will try to finish them today

1. Can you find an inherent self anywhere, outside of thought?

No, I can't find any self outside of thought

2. Can thought experience thought? Can thought experience anything? (Thought is so very overrated - by thought).

No thought can't experience thought or anything. Thought often refers to other thoughts though.

3. Does thought make any contact with other kinds of sense experience, such as sounds or sensations – or are they totally separate from each other?

They are totally separate from each other

4. For a moment take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment: 
Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour.... You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.

I'll try to do more of this exercise particularly around the thoughts, which is a little challenging to see they happen without effort, but yes I can see nothing has to be done by "me" to experience

5. The story of "me’ can seem to have continuity. Is it really continuous? Or are there simply isolated thoughts that never can truly touch each other, some of them claiming that there's one continuous story?

This is another exercise I will do more of, there is some difficultly not believing the one continuous story thoughts. But when remembering yesterday it doesn't feel like it was the same "me" as yesterday, more just a story of events

Will continue this and report back

[AwayKen127]

Sounds good, Jerry. Carry on.

[Russ84]

Hi Jeff, here are the rest of the exercises

6. Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this? Isn’t a thought only known as it appears? In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?

I couldn't determine the next thought, thoughts are only known as they appear. And yes makes sense I'd need to be able to instigate them beforehand to claim control of the process.

7. Sit quietly and pay close attention to your thoughts for 20 minutes. Notice that thoughts seem to pop out of nowhere and have no obvious cause. They are a total surprise and you can find no cause or reason for their appearance. It should be obvious you were not involved in any way in the creation of these thoughts.

Yes I see thoughts pop out of nowhere without an obvious cause.

8. Do you have unpleasant thoughts? Do you want to have them? If you had any control over thoughts, don’t you think you would choose not to think such thoughts at all? Wouldn’t you be able to choose never to have thoughts that seem to make you unhappy?

Yes there are unwanted unpleasant thoughts. If I had control I likely wouldn't choose to have such thoughts and instead have only happy thoughts.

9. When we look very closely and precisely we come to see that “me” thoughts only refer to other “me” thoughts, not to an actual abiding “me.” Observe thoughts with precision; can you ever find a ‘me’ within the “me” thoughts and feelings, or just a sense of me?

There is just a sense of me but no actual me in the me thoughts

10. Pay attention to mental activity – to thoughts and images in the mind. Where are they arising? Are they inside something? Are they central to you, or are they peripheral? Do they leave any trace when they have gone?

I can't find where they arise, doesn't feel central to me or peripheral. They also don't leave a trace, once gone I can't notice any sense of them ever being present.

[AwayKen127]

Good work, Jerry. You're very clear on every point. Is there still seeking? If so, can you find a seeker, or just thoughts arising?
Jeff

[Russ84]

Thanks Jeff, there's still seeking. I'll spend more time looking today at the thoughts to see if there is no seeker found.

[Russ84]

Still feels like a seeker is there but the exercises have been really helpful in applying them when looking. Happy to continue with this.

[AwayKen127]

If there is a shift, does it affect pure experience at all? What exactly is the difference between being awake and not being awake?

[Russ84]

If there is a shift, does it affect pure experience at all?

No it wouldn't affect pure experience.

What exactly is the difference between being awake and not being awake?

There's only belief/thoughts of knowing there is no one in control. So when believing there's a seeker or breather and not being able to clearly see there isn't, there are thoughts of not being awake.

I used this while breathing this morning and noticed beliefs of experience being different when realising there is no breather. It is still not clear and obvious there wasn't a breather, but feel I'm making progress.