Keeping It Simple

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Bluejay
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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby Bluejay » Fri Jul 07, 2023 8:02 am

It did, however, feel like I could actively speak a thought if I intended to.
Is this not also a thought? Even if it's an impulse, did you make it appear?
While aware, however, it felt like I could use intention to redirect thought slightly, but they still constantly arose and disappeared without much input from me.
What controls the redirecting?
Similar to the answer above, it felt like I could control attention when I was aware. However, I could not control when attention would shift off of the thing I intended it to be looking at. When I was consumed by, or participating in a thought train, however, I could not. I wasn't aware where attention was, at all.
What is the difference between being aware and not being aware? (in direct experience)

Is there a something being aware of a thought?

It felt like I could choose what words to say or what image to generate, when I was aware, but that was the minority to the endless thought stream.
Where is the point where you had the ability to choose words or images?

Don't settle for something like 'I felt it'. Look at that in direct experience. Where did that feeling come, if it was a feeling? Following it back until 'you' decided.
I was able to see some of those instances as thoughts, but they were subtle.
In DE, what is the difference between a thought and a subtle thought?

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gbeene
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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby gbeene » Fri Jul 07, 2023 3:49 pm

Sat and did a similar exercise to yesterday's pointing but with your questions below in mind.
It did, however, feel like I could actively speak a thought if I intended to.
Is this not also a thought? Even if it's an impulse, did you make it appear?
It's kind of funny, my first answer is "I think it's a thought." I do believe I saw that intention sense is indeed still thoughts while I was sitting. Trying to keep things explicitly as simple DE labels helped with that.
While aware, however, it felt like I could use intention to redirect thought slightly, but they still constantly arose and disappeared without much input from me.
What controls the redirecting?
It feels like "me" but this was the trickiest part of this sit. It feels like at the moment of action, it is "me" taking the action. But the things that lead up to the action being taken all seemed to happen without my input. For example, an itch arising, my arm moving up to scratch it, all happened somewhat automatically but my mind co-opted it as its own action. After the itch was done I wondered, "Did I do that?" and tried wiggling my eyes to prove I was doing things. It felt like the intention to wiggle my eyes was being actively controlled by me, or by something.
Similar to the answer above, it felt like I could control attention when I was aware. However, I could not control when attention would shift off of the thing I intended it to be looking at. When I was consumed by, or participating in a thought train, however, I could not. I wasn't aware where attention was, at all.
What is the difference between being aware and not being aware? (in direct experience)
The answer that came up in the sit was, the only difference is whether the thought "I am aware" is present or not. Seeing this made a lot of fear arise.
Is there a something being aware of a thought?[/color]
It feels like yes, but maybe that's because my discursive mind feels that nothing could exist without something to witness it, or for it to exist in. In direct experience, it seems like the thing being experienced is just there and the experiencing of it is not separate, but I would say my felt sense of that is weak. (another thought?)
It felt like I could choose what words to say or what image to generate, when I was aware, but that was the minority to the endless thought stream.
Where is the point where you had the ability to choose words or images?

Don't settle for something like 'I felt it'. Look at that in direct experience. Where did that feeling come, if it was a feeling? Following it back until 'you' decided.
This exploration was the same as my "eye wiggle" exploration above. This was most of the time spent while sitting. Fear arose while exploring this. At the end of it, though, it still felt like the moment of action was in direct control.
I was able to see some of those instances as thoughts, but they were subtle.
In DE, what is the difference between a thought and a subtle thought?
In DE there isn't one, it's just a thought being experienced.

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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby Bluejay » Fri Jul 07, 2023 4:00 pm

After the itch was done I wondered, "Did I do that?" and tried wiggling my eyes to prove I was doing things. It felt like the intention to wiggle my eyes was being actively controlled by me, or by something.
Wasn't wiggling the eyes simply the next thing in the sequence, so to speak?

And when you say me, what is the experience of me?

What does this 'controlled by me' thought point to?

Or is it simply a thought that says "Hey, I did the wiggling"?

Does it have anything to do with a 'me'?

The answer that came up in the sit was, the only difference is whether the thought "I am aware" is present or not. Seeing this made a lot of fear arise.
Oh, that's great. Fear is splendid.

Were you able to sit with the fear without getting diverted?
At the end of it, though, it still felt like the moment of action was in direct control.
Got it. We will explore this more soon.
It feels like yes, but maybe that's because my discursive mind feels that nothing could exist without something to witness it, or for it to exist in. In direct experience, it seems like the thing being experienced is just there and the experiencing of it is not separate, but I would say my felt sense of that is weak. (another thought?)
No problemo.

Here's a pointer so we can explore this.

Seeing Exercise

The usual belief that 'I am this body' is usually tied in with the belief that the body as a separate item is responsible or 'doing' the senses - 'I see', 'I hear', 'I feel' and so on.

In this exercise, we'll focus on seeing.

So, close your eyes.

With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things going on, but the specifics aren't important.

I'm going to keep things simple and use the term 'blackness' for whatever you can see while your eyes are closed.

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?

2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?

3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?


What do you find?

Can an inherent see-er be found?

Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept, idea, or thought?

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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby gbeene » Fri Jul 07, 2023 5:51 pm

Wasn't wiggling the eyes simply the next thing in the sequence, so to speak?

And when you say me, what is the experience of me?

What does this 'controlled by me' thought point to?

Or is it simply a thought that says "Hey, I did the wiggling"?

Does it have anything to do with a 'me'?
Yes, the "action taking" is just the very tip of the sequence but it seems the sequence is really only known as a thought. I just took a shower and noticed how picking up the soap, shampooing, toweling off, didn't really require a strong sense of "me" to occur, and I reflected (past thoughts, I know) about how many actions are taken throughout the day WITHOUT a sense of "me" doing it.

I believe "me" is just a label. In felt sense/direct experience, anything I can see that identifies as "me" ends up just being another thought or sensation. When I look for where the "me" is in doing action, it is basically a very close-in-time prediction about what comes next and the subsequent sensation. Yet the feeling persists.
Oh, that's great. Fear is splendid.

Were you able to sit with the fear without getting diverted?
Yes, I was aware going into this process that it can be met with all sorts of forms of resistance, including fear. I noticed it arising as a chest sensation and subsequent thought labelling it.


Seeing Exercise

The usual belief that 'I am this body' is usually tied in with the belief that the body as a separate item is responsible or 'doing' the senses - 'I see', 'I hear', 'I feel' and so on.

In this exercise, we'll focus on seeing.

So, close your eyes.

With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things going on, but the specifics aren't important.

I'm going to keep things simple and use the term 'blackness' for whatever you can see while your eyes are closed.
1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?

Yes, there is only "blackness" to be seen.

2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?

No, the only sensation in direct experience that could be called "seeing" is blackness.

3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?

No, though I tried. Trying was a thought, anything that seemed to claim "me" was just another sensation.

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
No, blackness just "is". On investigation, it felt like my eyes were "me". But were just a sense of pressure and movement. A sense of space/head pressure or identification was either just a thought or a physical sensation. Fear arose.
Can an inherent see-er be found?

I became curious about where a sense of ownership arose if it could not be found in any of the thoughts or sensations mentioned previously. The thought, "If I'm none of these sensations, what if "I" comes from the blackness itself?" came up.

Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept, idea, or thought?
Intellectually I don't think it is possible for the see-er to be anything other than that. There is still a felt sense of.... something. But I guess that something feels more confused than it was.

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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby Bluejay » Fri Jul 07, 2023 6:09 pm

Yet the feeling persists.
Yes it can persist for quite some time even when the self illusion is seen through, although it will begin to flip-flop.
Yes, I was aware going into this process that it can be met with all sorts of forms of resistance, including fear. I noticed it arising as a chest sensation and subsequent thought labelling it.
Okay, great :)
On investigation, it felt like my eyes were "me". But were just a sense of pressure and movement. A sense of space/head pressure or identification was either just a thought or a physical sensation. Fear arose.
Very good.

What are eyes in direct experience?

Is your 'internal' space in your head, or is your head in your 'internal' space?

The thought, "If I'm none of these sensations, what if "I" comes from the blackness itself?" came up.
What if the cookie monster runs the world? :)

Thought can say anything, and will say anything. So keep looking.

Does "I" come from the blackness?

Is the thought "I"? If not, where is this "I" that might come from blackness?

What claims ownership of this thought that says the above?

Is there a controller of the thought?

If "I" comes from the blackness, that means "I" is not here constantly. How can it control life if it isn't here?

There is still a felt sense of.... something. But I guess that something feels more confused than it was.
Gradual loosening. No need to rush :)

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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby gbeene » Sat Jul 08, 2023 6:02 pm

What are eyes in direct experience?

Is your 'internal' space in your head, or is your head in your 'internal' space?
Eyes are just physical sensation in my direct experience, and a thought applying a concept to those sensations.

The second question seems a bit like a trick -- there is no internal space and no head. There are just sensations arising and concepts being applied to them. Especially with my eyes closed, there is no point of reference for "outside" or "head" other than that concept/idea being applied to them.
Does "I" come from the blackness?

This thought was less strong during today's sit and didn't really persist. So I looked at blackness, sense of see-er, sense of hear-er. There was no "I" or identification concept applied to the blackness.

Is the thought "I"? If not, where is this "I" that might come from blackness?

No thoughts that I observed, or sensations that I observed in today's sit, were an actual source of "I". Anything that seemed to claim "I" immediately lost that sense upon observation, though the sense then jumped elsewhere - very slippery :)

What claims ownership of this thought that says the above?

That slippery self-concept is quick to claim ownership, but it can only do this retroactively. Though same as above, upon any investigation whatsoever it is seen as not true.

Is there a controller of the thought?

I noted frequently today that thoughts, sensations, and what seemed like it had attention applied to it did so without any control from "me".

If "I" comes from the blackness, that means "I" is not here constantly. How can it control life if it isn't here?
As blackness was not seen as "me" today, I noted how "I" seemed to only be there and ready to take action when I was "aware". If the sense of being aware and attentive wasn't there, there was no ability to "drive". When I was not aware, as in lost in a train of thought, or absorbed into mental images, there was not a driver present that felt like I could control it.

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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby Bluejay » Sat Jul 08, 2023 6:30 pm

The second question seems a bit like a trick -- there is no internal space and no head. There are just sensations arising and concepts being applied to them. Especially with my eyes closed, there is no point of reference for "outside" or "head" other than that concept/idea being applied to them.
:-)
Anything that seemed to claim "I" immediately lost that sense upon observation, though the sense then jumped elsewhere - very slippery :)
Slippery is a good word for it!

What is it that allows it to jump elsewhere?

From where is the 'I' projected so it can move? Can it move?
As blackness was not seen as "me" today, I noted how "I" seemed to only be there and ready to take action when I was "aware". If the sense of being aware and attentive wasn't there, there was no ability to "drive". When I was not aware, as in lost in a train of thought, or absorbed into mental images, there was not a driver present that felt like I could control it.
Let's look closer at this.

What creates the ability to 'drive' when you are aware?

How is 'being aware' experienced?

Doesn't this feeling of being able to control also just arise without someone making it happen?

And doesn't being aware/attentive also arise without you making it happen?

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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby gbeene » Sun Jul 09, 2023 5:30 pm

I don't know that I was able to get any good investigation into these questions over the last day. My partner was blasting music during my sit this morning, which was aggravating - I tried investigating aggravation as a sense and concept but I was very distracted. Tried investigating distraction, what can be distracted, etc.... mostly just felt annoyed though. I will keep investigating today. I also understand that anger, like fear, can be another obstacle on the path, but maybe I was less prepared for this one :)
What is it that allows it to jump elsewhere?
Intellectually I don't think there is an it or an elsewhere or jumping. But in direct experience it seems to be that "I" can jump elsewhere if there is a thought that "I" is elsewhere. In fact, it seems like "There is a sense of 'me' watching this" is itself a thought.
From where is the 'I' projected so it can move? Can it move?
"I" being projected or it moving are just thoughts. Persistent and recurring thoughts, but I don't see how there could really be an "I" there if I wasn't having a thought reifying the fact that an "I" is there.
What creates the ability to 'drive' when you are aware?
Intellectually, probably just a thought. In direct experience I don't think I know yet. I keep trying to like... "move" consciously to investigate this and it feels like moving vs. trying not to move are both things actively being done by something.
How is 'being aware' experienced?
This is a hard one to explain. It feels like being awake vs not being awake. Like, metacognitively knowing that something is happening vs. the thing just happening. But I could anticipate a follow on question being, "What metacognitively knows something is happening?" and I don't think I understand an answer for this one today.
Doesn't this feeling of being able to control also just arise without someone making it happen?
I'm sure it does but I haven't seen this clearly in experience yet. I know that it can be there or not be there, but it feels like a particularly sticky/grabby thing for the self-thought to cling to.
And doesn't being aware/attentive also arise without you making it happen?
This seems true so far from my experience. I can't actually control when it feels like I am more or less aware.

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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby Bluejay » Sun Jul 09, 2023 5:42 pm

I will keep investigating today. I also understand that anger, like fear, can be another obstacle on the path, but maybe I was less prepared for this one :)
Anger, annoyance, and reactivity in general is often investigated after the illusion of self.

If you want to stick to the self illusion inquiry with these kind of situations, inquire if there is someone getting aggravated or if it is simply happening. Is there someone trying to manage emotions, to do inquiry, and so on?

And also... Who or what is this happening to?
In fact, it seems like "There is a sense of 'me' watching this" is itself a thought.
Yes. Good observation.
"I" being projected or it moving are just thoughts. Persistent and recurring thoughts, but I don't see how there could really be an "I" there if I wasn't having a thought reifying the fact that an "I" is there.
Yes. Why is there a need for thought to keep telling you "I am here".
Like, metacognitively knowing that something is happening vs. the thing just happening. But I could anticipate a follow on question being, "What metacognitively knows something is happening?" and I don't think I understand an answer for this one today.
Is it possible the distinction between the two is a mental concept?

What if the known and the knower arise together as one thing? There is no known and knower. There is simply this.

When there is awareness of something happening, how is that experienced in direct experience?

There seems to be a subject (being aware) and object (something happening), but is that true? Pay attention to sensations. It may seem like two things are happening. Are they? Or is one thing happening quickly, while thought labels two things subject and object.
This seems true so far from my experience. I can't actually control when it feels like I am more or less aware.
Since you seem to have regular sits, you might want to explore attention.

Look at if there's a controller of attention, or if it simply moves by itself like everything else?
I'm sure it does but I haven't seen this clearly in experience yet. I know that it can be there or not be there, but it feels like a particularly sticky/grabby thing for the self-thought to cling to.
Here's a pointer on control:

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

- How is the movement controlled?

- Does a thought control it?

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

- How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

- Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

- Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?


Enjoy! :)

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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby gbeene » Mon Jul 10, 2023 5:40 am

One general question. In this last post, you have given me plenty of homework. One could spend months or years doing some of the investigations you mentioned :) Is the expectation for the process between us that I look at the questions/pointers you've given daily and report back, no matter what?
Is it possible the distinction between the two is a mental concept?

What if the known and the knower arise together as one thing? There is no known and knower. There is simply this.
I think this is sort of what I was trying to say happened microscopically when the "I am the blackness" thought came up. I think there was a pinpoint of a fraction of a second where it felt like the knower disappeared and it was just blackness being known. But then the thought and fear came in on top.
When there is awareness of something happening, how is that experienced in direct experience?

There seems to be a subject (being aware) and object (something happening), but is that true? Pay attention to sensations. It may seem like two things are happening. Are they? Or is one thing happening quickly, while thought labels two things subject and object.
I tried focusing on this perspective for a bit while riding my bicycle tonight and then in the sit I did thereafter. In direct experience it seemed like no more than one thing could be known at a time. Like a frame in a movie. I think my thinking mind co-opted the investigation a bit and was turning the question over with language and images instead of being noticed generally as 'thought'.
Since you seem to have regular sits, you might want to explore attention.

Look at if there's a controller of attention, or if it simply moves by itself like everything else?
I will work this in as an inquiry "question" while sitting. Almost unfortunately, it feels like I intellectually think the right answer is that there isn't one. But the intellectual mind isn't what this is about. So I am trying to quiet it and just look simply.
Here's a pointer on control:

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

- How is the movement controlled?

It seems like it just happens. I did this while bicycling as well, what is making my legs turn? What determines how hard I press the pedals and at what cadence? In direct experience there is nothing outside of sensations and thoughts arising. There's no "lever" being pulled or thing pulling the lever.

- Does a thought control it?

It couldn't. Thoughts arose before and after the movement but the movement was just sensation and visual information.

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

In direct experience, no. But it is hard to not feel like nothing will happen without "me" doing it, despite knowing (probably just intellectually) that there is no "me" or controller in space pulling a lever/control panel, just sensations and thoughts arising.

- How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

This was the slipperiest part. When the hand moved, there was no thought decision to do so, at least not in a clearly sequential, obvious, "I will move my hand." and then the hand moves. I could think "I will move my hand" all I want but the hand won't move. And I can move my hand freely while any number of thoughts arise that have nothing to do with it.

- Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

This was clever. I saw there was no clear decision about what hand came up, or when it moved, or how fast and how far to move it. No clear thoughts about it or no clear story. Just the movement/sensations of movement.

- Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
Nope. Not in direct experience.

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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby Bluejay » Mon Jul 10, 2023 7:09 am

Is the expectation for the process between us that I look at the questions/pointers you've given daily and report back, no matter what?
Daily would be ideal, but if you feel like taking more time, you can let me know.

I prefer daily because there's more of a dialogue and I'm better able to guide if you share what's going on, even if the exercises aren't done 'perfectly'.

Also if it feels like too much, let me know, and I won't put so much in each post :)

Another way is to take the questions with you during the day. So if there are 5 questions in the post, keep one in mind for 1-2 hours as you go about your day. After 1-2 hours, switch the the next one, and so on.

Optimally you'd make this a practice 24/7 with fresh looking and curiosity. That's impossible for most, but you get the gist.
But then the thought and fear came in on top.
When this happens, what happens when you look below or behind the fear?

Also what is the fear saying? If it's saying something like "This is dangerous," what if you respond "Let's see" and continue?

A bit of a crude approach, but if there's fear, so what? :)
I tried focusing on this perspective for a bit while riding my bicycle tonight and then in the sit I did thereafter. In direct experience it seemed like no more than one thing could be known at a time. Like a frame in a movie. I think my thinking mind co-opted the investigation a bit and was turning the question over with language and images instead of being noticed generally as 'thought'.
It may help to do very quick vipassana labeling (if you feel inclined) to see the process.

The whole thing can happen rapidly, so can be hard to catch. But once you're aware of it, it seems to naturally unravel itself with curiosity.
I will work this in as an inquiry "question" while sitting. Almost unfortunately, it feels like I intellectually think the right answer is that there isn't one. But the intellectual mind isn't what this is about. So I am trying to quiet it and just look simply.
Good that you mention this, because it's crucial that you look with fresh eyes each time. The mind can, as you've noticed, come in and 'do' the inquiry instead.
In direct experience, no. But it is hard to not feel like nothing will happen without "me" doing it, despite knowing (probably just intellectually) that there is no "me" or controller in space pulling a lever/control panel, just sensations and thoughts arising.
Can you share a scenario where you feel like a 'me' is controlling things?
I could think "I will move my hand" all I want but the hand won't move. And I can move my hand freely while any number of thoughts arise that have nothing to do with it.
Yup, nice!

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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby gbeene » Mon Jul 10, 2023 2:51 pm

Daily would be ideal, but if you feel like taking more time, you can let me know.

I prefer daily because there's more of a dialogue and I'm better able to guide if you share what's going on, even if the exercises aren't done 'perfectly'.

Also if it feels like too much, let me know, and I won't put so much in each post :)

Another way is to take the questions with you during the day. So if there are 5 questions in the post, keep one in mind for 1-2 hours as you go about your day. After 1-2 hours, switch the the next one, and so on.

Optimally you'd make this a practice 24/7 with fresh looking and curiosity. That's impossible for most, but you get the gist.
All sounds good. Just wanted to make sure I was "doing it right", I notice there's a bit of that doubt mind in my asking, in that it would be possible to "do it wrong", ha.
When this happens, what happens when you look below or behind the fear?

Also what is the fear saying? If it's saying something like "This is dangerous," what if you respond "Let's see" and continue?

A bit of a crude approach, but if there's fear, so what? :)
Yea, I am not letting fear define or control anything here. More seeing it as a guidepost or a good sign. It's basically just a chest sensation upon investigation.
Imay help to do very quick vipassana labeling (if you feel inclined) to see the process.

The whole thing can happen rapidly, so can be hard to catch. But once you're aware of it, it seems to naturally unravel itself with curiosity.
Not sure I follow, vipassana noting the sequence of an experience being turned into a subject/object distinction?
Can you share a scenario where you feel like a 'me' is controlling things?
I'm not sure about this. I think the same as with the last posts investigation, anything I do like typing this sentence is sort of just happening. But I don't know if this is just intellectualization co-opting it faster than can be seen, but it still feels like the moment of action has something like intention responsible for the actual motion. Maybe this is thought as expectation, but I think there's a feeling that if I really weren't in control of this, I could relax and float around and everything would just happen "for" me. But there seems to be intention and volition associated with action, and where is that coming from? (Probably what YOU would ask ME lol)

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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby Bluejay » Mon Jul 10, 2023 3:03 pm

All sounds good. Just wanted to make sure I was "doing it right", I notice there's a bit of that doubt mind in my asking, in that it would be possible to "do it wrong", ha.
Hey, we need to do it perfectly right, otherwise we won't reach the goal of no self 100% bliss, right? ;-)
Yea, I am not letting fear define or control anything here. More seeing it as a guidepost or a good sign. It's basically just a chest sensation upon investigation.
That's glorious!
Not sure I follow, vipassana noting the sequence of an experience being turned into a subject/object distinction?
So if there are two sensations that are taken as one thing, noting would reveal that it is one thing happening one after the other. It may help break it into parts.

Does that make sense?
I'm not sure about this. I think the same as with the last posts investigation, anything I do like typing this sentence is sort of just happening. But I don't know if this is just intellectualization co-opting it faster than can be seen, but it still feels like the moment of action has something like intention responsible for the actual motion. Maybe this is thought as expectation, but I think there's a feeling that if I really weren't in control of this, I could relax and float around and everything would just happen "for" me. But there seems to be intention and volition associated with action, and where is that coming from? (Probably what YOU would ask ME lol)
Yes, where is that coming from indeed! Maybe the below exercise can help explore this.

It can still feel like there's control, but it can at the same time be obvious that there's no controller. It's similar to choices happening but no chooser. If you felt that you had no control at all, that might get a bit freaky.

So there may be some expectation you have of what it should be/look like?

Drink Exercise

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?


Enjoy! :)

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gbeene
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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby gbeene » Mon Jul 10, 2023 7:38 pm

So if there are two sensations that are taken as one thing, noting would reveal that it is one thing happening one after the other. It may help break it into parts.

Does that make sense?
Yes this makes sense. Seems like a thing that would get easier with an active vipassana practice. But that's just a thought. I'll investigate this on the cushion (on-cushion practice has just been self-enquiry since I started sitting again)
It can still feel like there's control, but it can at the same time be obvious that there's no controller. It's similar to choices happening but no chooser. If you felt that you had no control at all, that might get a bit freaky.

So there may be some expectation you have of what it should be/look like?
Yes I definitely have different expectations to what I think it probably "is" in direct experience. Last night while pedaling the bicycle, it still felt like something was "deciding" to control my legs on the bicycle but looking only revealed sensations and thoughts and no obvious controller.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

I have a can of La Croix Guava and a can of Lagunitas Hoppy Refresher. The qualities of both of these arose as visuals (can colors, letters, branding), audio (bubbling sounds) and memory-thoughts/future-thoughts (remembering taste, visualization of mouthfeel) and emotional thought (honestly mild disgust as I don't think I really want to drink either of these lol)

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

There was the sound-thought of counting and expectation thoughts between each number. I didn't choose how thoughts arose while counting.

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

I don't think so. This is a little frustrating to investigate. There are only sensations and thoughts but the can still gets picked up and drank. I sat after my first sip and got myself into kind of a frozen state trying to not feel like I was choosing which can to pick up. Or trying to see that I'd pick up a can without a controller. Or waiting for it to happen on its own. But picking up, not picking up, sitting, not sitting, all seemed like active decisions or intentions. But as mentioned above, it still feels like there's control, so I think I am having a hard time separating that feeling of control from a controller.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

I think this is the same answer as above.

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?
I don't really think the feeling of control is actually a feeling or a thought. It's hard to describe what it is. Maybe it's nothing, and is just happening.

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Bluejay
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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby Bluejay » Mon Jul 10, 2023 7:47 pm

Yes this makes sense. Seems like a thing that would get easier with an active vipassana practice. But that's just a thought. I'll investigate this on the cushion (on-cushion practice has just been self-enquiry since I started sitting again)
If there's no inclination then no need to worry. Or maybe there is a need :-)
I don't think so. This is a little frustrating to investigate. There are only sensations and thoughts but the can still gets picked up and drank. I sat after my first sip and got myself into kind of a frozen state trying to not feel like I was choosing which can to pick up. Or trying to see that I'd pick up a can without a controller. Or waiting for it to happen on its own. But picking up, not picking up, sitting, not sitting, all seemed like active decisions or intentions. But as mentioned above, it still feels like there's control, so I think I am having a hard time separating that feeling of control from a controller.
So let's break it down.

1. Show me step-by-step how the decisions happen. You can also go back to the palm flipping exercise if you don't want to have drinks in front of you all the time.

2. Also, go back in time to find the decision point where 'you' independently chose something without it depending on any circumstance, genetics, preferences, stimulus and so on.

Just because it feels like there is an active decision doesn't make it so. Feelings/sensations don't make decisions.

3. When making an active decision, look at all the parts involved. Let's say there's a thought and a feeling.

Is the thought the decision maker?
Is the feeling the decision maker?
I don't really think the feeling of control is actually a feeling or a thought. It's hard to describe what it is. Maybe it's nothing, and is just happening.
Careful here. "Maybe it is..." sounds like thinking to avoid looking in direct experience. Is it nothing, or is it something else?

Resistance and fear here can show up in all sorts of ways, such as thoughts that say "Oh, I'm tired," or "It's probably nothing so let's leave it at that," and so on.


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