TRUTH REALIZING. WOULD LIKE TO WORK WITH ILONA

[Jenny]

Dear Ilona:
I want to thank you again for this dialogue, really deeply from my heart.
You say it sounds a bit intellectual, and this is it, I agree. if feels as if I could answer any question you ask. I have been in this more than 40 years! When I say need to go deeper I mean it, because at a level there is a knowing and something in me also knows that there is deeper. ( and also I have to say it is deeper now than some time ago)
You know how it feels? As if there was a horizontal barrier inside that does not let penetrate deeper and this idea, because I am aware is just another idea, causes a lot of sadness.
The day before yesterday I heard a small satsang that was as if made for me. They were talking about this sensation of seeing but knowing it is not yet all. The man who asked the question felt that way and Adyashanti himself said at a moment in his life he felt the same way also. But that instead of looking to what was missing, he surrendered to look to what was already here and let that take care of the rest. And this is what I felt i needed to do. and yesterday during the day I felt the physical weakness again.
Now I am going to answer your questions. When I look carefully I can see there is only awareness and that everything that exists here including thoughts is the same awareness is the same energy of the same self. so really there is no difference. It is I guess as if there can be awareness and a state of sleeping at the same time the state of sleeping exists in the awareness and ultimately is the awareness islef taking that form. ( sounds intelectual)
I do not know if the thought itself is conditioned,. It seems a thought forms part of a program of thoughts and that is conditioned and has its own energy, that tends to repeat itself. Its strengh is taken from being believed and when seen as just an idea with no power at all or no reality at all looses its strength. and when seen they have no reality at all then it does not matter at all if they are here or if they are not here.
In the last question. are you talking about a self or a me? the me is just an idea and so does not really exist beyond being an idea. it has no substance at all.
The self, (being everything that exists, an energy that is at the same time nothing and is also whole, unbreakable, and at the same time aware always) I feel clearly this exists without no doubt. I can sense it in a way I cannot explain and I know in a way I can not explain, it exists. and this is everything and my prayer is that that energy takes any belief in the idea of me, or any resistence to knowing one is fully that and burn it in its own fire.
Much love,
Jenny

[Ilona]

Good stuff Jenny. Yes, turning focus from what isn't to what is- is the necesary step to make in this inquiry.

What happens if you replace word self with word life. What other words point to the same?

[Jenny]

Yes word life is just it. Other words? Eternity, presence, awareness,energy, love, nothingness, being-ness, it, what no word can describe.
This morning meanwhile I was taking a shower i felt so joyous and complete and felt nothing was missing. this is the experience now.
Surrendering to the fact that there is nothing else but here and now and opening to this is really wonderful.
all love,
Jenny

[Ilona]

Oh yes :) let this settle, enjoy :) delightful to read your words.
Sending love.

[Jenny]

Hi Ilona:
Since the moment there was a decision to open to what is here, there has been a opening in the knowing THERE IS JUST HERE. It does not matter if there is a nice sensation being experienced or not. Its just opening to what is, and allow that any sense of self can be destroyed by the energy itself.
Yesterday I heard Adyashanti again and he was talking about different kinds of awakenings. He said there was a mental awakening where you can feel the space itself, a heart awakening were you are intimate relationship with everything and feel everything and the love for everything and a gut awakening where there is really no sense of self. He said that when the gut center is touched a lot of terror is felt when the letting go has not happened.
Hearing this brought the center of the pain again: of feeling again I do not have the "real" awakening. this is the crux of the matter and just letting that sense of total frustration and total impotence to be in the here is a surrender. In that, opening to whats here, to the absolute lack of control of the me wanting to reach, to the absolute total impotence of that me that does not exist and nevertheless has a force. the beauty is that in this there is surrender and opening again to here, to life, to now, to all there is and the knowing that whatever happens its not because a me is conducting it, but just because is happening. It feels a death after another in this surrender to what is.
You are going to ask can a idea die? of course not but that is a sensation after having believed and believed in a me that had any control or capability of doing.
So... it is just an opening and opening to whatever is felt, experienced HERE.
All love,
Jenny

[Ilona]

Yes, it feels like death while being alive.

So you see now- there is only this. And description is included.
How does it feel to see this? How does your normal day going? What changes do you notice since the start of this conversation?

Sending love.

[Jenny]

Dear Ilona:
Wow, we are connected! Immediate answer!
The change i see since the beginning of the conversation: what I see hapenned was basically the sense of the me tried very hard to make its way and arguments and more arguments to prove its existence in some way and through this conversation there was a point that had to surrender (at least at a certain level) and see 1) thought cannot reach anywhere, cannot do anything to reach anywhere.It just just about surrendering to wants to what is. In saying this I can see still some reality its given to thought itself because,the idea of having not reached still has a weight, a validity. Its heard with identification, but its surrounded by a knowing there is nothing that can be possibly done. So, Oh! I would like to feel and see much deeper its just a thought, just a thought and not a reality!
How does it feel to see there is only now? It feel more present, more connected more depth, more clarity, more relaxed (nothing has to happen in life and nothing is as important). All I have around are beautiful miracles, my husband, my cats, my dogs, the nature that surrounds me ,and my beautiful clients.
My normal day is more relaxed in the sense I was mentioning before. But I would not say there is a dramatical change. Sometimes I have experienced where there is NO resistance at all whatsoever, but it does not feel this way. Just feel more here and when I say here I mean not only here, in my bed writing to you but also here very present with the sensations in the body.
all love,
Jenny

[Ilona]

Dear Jenny, you say there is no dramatic change, I see the untidramatic change :) the drama is leaving the building..
Can you say that nothing changed, but everything looks different?

[Jenny]

Dear Ilona:
This is how I see it: I think I have been in a process of waking up long time ago. I think these dialogues with you helped to speed up a little, and to have more depth and surrender more. I am really very grateful. I continue feeling it is happening an it will continue happening. I definitively feel more here, I definitive feel more relaxation, joy and sometimes the feeling nothing is missing. Sometimes the idea "there is more"" comes in and I just feel the sensation in the body. As I said I feel open for life to keep undoing what needs to be undone, in surrender because nothing else can be done, there is nobody able to do nothing else or anything to speed up this process. I can say I feel more home, more resting, more grateful and more appreciative for life itself. I also feel more open heart. Seeing it I do think there has definitively been a shift, even though it does not feel as huge. What basicaly looks different is the importance given to things in life. Everything matters and yet nothing matters. It is all good as it is. Sometimes the awareness that is all happening becomes stronger and this feels very very freeing. I feel a lot of gratitude and appreciation in my heart.
All love,
Jenny

[Ilona]

Thank you very much for your answer. I can see that there was a shift, although it's not what you expected. It never is.
So tell me, are you ready for the final questions? Of course there is more, there is so much to explore and life will keep unfolding. But at this point all I want to know is if you have definitely seen that I is an illusion.

Sending love.

[Jenny]

Yes send the last questions.
All love,
Jenny

[Ilona]

Here they are :


1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?


Answer in full please. When ready.
Much love.

[Jenny]

1) Being just an idea the me has never existed. It has been an idea always and therefore it has never existed in any way shape or form. The me is just a connection between thoughts. The me is a supposition. If there is a body, and a name and a history all this must be conducted by a me and also there is an illusion that wants to believe there is a me with control over reality and actions.
2)The illusion of separate self begins with thought in the child. It began in the same way with thought in the human being in the culture. It begins since the moment mother starts telling the child, your name is.... this is yours.... this is mine..... you are pretty...., your are kind.....etc.etc. So it is highly conditioned idea since we are very small. Once the child begins to believe this, it is very easy to believe it when there is a whole society believing in the same thing. It is an unquestioned idea in the majority of people in this planet and life is lived solving problems and never looking at the cause of all problems.
3) It feels very liberation to see this. The idea of a me gives a supposed pleasure of existing and having an identity but it gives the big weight of a responsibility and also a big sensation of a void that needs to be filled and filled but the void never gets full.
4) I would first show the person that all anguish stems from the idea of wanting to be in a different place to where you are. That all life is full of an effort to be better, good, nice and have a lot of things to be fulfilled. Then I would ask the person If she could answer the question: who are you?. Who or what does she think it is? The person of course is going to answer using thought. I would ask are you really the body, are you really your emotions, are you really your thoughts? Then I would ask her to give a answer to what she is without using thought and to look for a me to see if she finds it.
What I just described is a questioning. If I would want just to describe it I would say something like:
You know, if you watch the life of human being all us are striving to achieve something, and to get to a better place always. I would show how this is the root of suffering, how human beings live in an internal war, always judging themselves an others and always in a continual dissatisfaction with what is. I would say that is very important to question were all of this is coming and I would say that if we look very carefully all this comes from thoughts an ideas of how it should be. I would show the person the difference between an idea an an object or experience. Once the person sees this I would make emphasis on, that must suffering comes from an idea of separation that never allows us to fill full and complete. Then I would show the me is just another idea and that if the me is just an idea then we can see there is not separation at all. in all this is very important to show the person the level of life just happening with events, circumstances and objects and the level of thoughts superimposed over reality.
5) the last bit that pushed me over was taking the ilusion to a limit. Continue and continue pushing and giving stories about achieving more until it was obvious that could be that could go forever, and was , boring, illusive and taking no where. This has been my path always: taking everything to its limits.
Much love,
Jenny

[Ilona]

Thank you for answers, Jenny. Here are a few more:

You talk about levels of experience and level of thought. Can you go deeper into this. Are perception channels different levels or it's all one level? Including labelling experience.

Does experience happen to a body, or is body part of experience?
Is there experiencer in the experience?
Are there others?

Sending love.

[Jenny]

Dear Ilona:
Yes, what I referred to with the level of experience and level of thoughtss is the followong: its is felt very different to just be living in the present sensing the energy in the moment WITHOUT BELIEVING THE STORY and living within the story and believing it. this is the difference I referred to itnif I were to explain to a person who lives most of the time believing her stories, just to show there is something different. All this is a discernment phase necessary to distinguish one from the other eve though then it will be discovered its the same. In our fist dialogue yo made emphasis in the difference between ideas and objects, didn't you? Well this is the same thing, to then discover they are all the same. So, maybe calling different levels is not at all correct, Its just and idea its just an idea and not a fact and what is actually happening are facts and we can call that reality. Ideas are happening within reality but they are not reality, labeling is happening in reality but they are not it. This is what I really meant. Perception channels? This is the same but in one there is a concentration on an idea and a story which is believed and in the other there is an openness to whatever is here with all the senses.
Experience does not happen to a body. the body and its sensations its part of experience and there is no experiencer in the experience. Are there others: NO its all one.
and the truth is I see there are not others but still feels as if there were others! It feels at some level there was a me and others even tough I know that is not real! Yesterday I went to see a friend who had a lot time of not seeing. I just saw her and her life just happening but it feels as another person if I do not look deeper!!!!! There was no reaction at all at her life and circumstances even if they very different from mine, but I want to be honest and tell you how it feels.
All love,
Jenny