END OF SEEKING

[poppyseed]

Hi Angelos

Yes attention moves by itself but we can practice to keep it at one point. And it's possible for us to do it. We focus on the breath and with this practice we improve our ability to concentrate our attention to one thing. Differently if we couldn't control our attention we couldn't able to function on our daily life. To read a book or to write these words is necessary to keep my attention there. What you suggest is that attention control itself? Sorry, I don't get it.

Seems like/feels like = thought content
Nothing in DE is “seems like” or “feels like” – it’s either here or not.
Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

The problem is that you are trying to "get it" and you are not looking. We are here not to have a theoretical discussions but to look what is actually here. I’m not suggesting anything, I’m just pointing where to look. You say that that you can master it with practice. Really? Is it like a wild horse that we need to train? And who/what is that “I” that does the training? Please describe its observable (with the senses) characteristics. Thought assumes things and makes shortcuts and once it is accepeted as a belief it stays there never checked again. Then new beliefs are built on top of this. That is why we are here to put everything to the test. You see this is where the illusion/delusion lies. The problem also is that you take attention/focus as an existing solid thing. What is attention? LOOK! Look deeper! The second part questions were designed for you to explore “attention” in more detail.
Please LOOK! Don't despair, you are doing great!
Love
Rali

[Bonan]

Hi Rali,

Can the attention be separated from its object (thought, sensation)? Is there a visible border that demarcates where the thought ends and attention starts? Are there solid thoughts that float around and attention that catches/sees them? Are there solid thoughts or just thinking (verb)? Is it really happening like in language where you have subject/object relationship? Can there be attention without objects? Can there be thoughts without attention? Are there noticing and thinking or just noticing_thinking? Please LOOK, don’t intellectualise, imagine or remember from your previous experience!

My observations are that attention cannot be seperated from its object . The object is presented simultaneously with the attention. It's not clear where the thought ends and attention starts. There is only just thinking not solid thoughts . No it isn't happenning like language. There is a flow without solid language distinctions. Attention needs objects of course. There is noticing_thinking and noticing_sensing and there are not clear boundaries

What is a “brain” in DE? Is it something that could be seen, heard… or it is learned about (think “apple” example)? How is it directly seen/known that the brain does the thinking, or is it assumed/learned?

A brain in DE is just a label. Thought about 'brain' is known and sensation in the head labelled 'brain' is known. It is learned and assumed that the brain does the thinking.

If you didn’t choose to think of a pink elephant, why do you think chose it? Is it because another thought says so?

It was totally random

What is a “mind” in DE? These are labels that talk about DE but can they be found in DE?

In DE "mind" is just a label . You cannot find a "mind" in DE.

So what happens to the “I” when it is thought about?

It's just thought arising in DE.....

So our actual experience in life is the senses without the contents that our thoughts create?

[Bonan]

The first paragraph is the copy of your text and the second is my reply in this text

[poppyseed]

Good morning Angelos

My observations are that attention cannot be seperated from its object . The object is presented simultaneously with the attention… There is noticing_thinking and noticing_sensing and there are not clear boundaries

There is only just thinking not solid thoughts .

Attention needs objects of course.

Why does attention need objects? If attention and its objects are inseparable, are there really objects? Remember “thinking”, “sensing”… are also labels for THIS/ whatever is happening. They might be DE labels but they are still labels. Can the senses be separated without thought content? LOOK!
Are there really noticing_thinking and noticing_sensing, or noticing_thinking_sensing_seeing_hearing_tasting_smelling (THIS)?

So our actual experience in life is the senses without the contents that our thoughts create?

Isn’t this the QUESTION of this inquiry?! The small detail is that thinking is also part of the experience/THIS/What IS but it’s not what we believed it to be. Remember the analogy with the icons on your computer desktop.

Yes attention moves by itself but we can practice to keep it at one point. And it's possible for us to do it. We focus on the breath and with this practice we improve our ability to concentrate our attention to one thing. Differently if we couldn't control our attention we couldn't able to function on our daily life.

So do you see this now in a different light or the confusion is still there? Attention basically is the isolation of one “thing” out of the whole (where are actually no things) and further creating a story about it ("apple" example). It’s all thought/thinking. Is there really a "breath" that needs to be focused on? But we’ll explore this in more detail, once we move on.

Love
Rali

[Bonan]

Hi Rali,

Why does attention need objects? If attention and its objects are inseparable, are there really objects? Remember “thinking”, “sensing”… are also labels for THIS/ whatever is happening. They might be DE labels but they are still labels. Can the senses be separated without thought content? LOOK!
Are there really noticing_thinking and noticing_sensing, or Why does attention need objects? If attention and its objects are inseparable, are there really objects? Remember “thinking”, “sensing”… are also labels for THIS/ whatever is happening. They might be DE labels but they are still labels. Can the senses be separated without thought content? LOOK!

Looking more deeply , attention doesn't need objects . It's this , no objects ! When I look I find that the senses are found there simultanuously but the sense of smelling is different from the sense of seeing.....I lose it in this point and I feel that the boundaries are clear there . Depsite this yes the noticing_thinking_sensing_seeing_hearing_tasting_smelling is more real than noticing_thinking

Isn’t this the QUESTION of this inquiry?! The small detail is that thinking is also part of the experience/THIS/What IS but it’s not what we believed it to be. Remember the analogy with the icons on your computer desktop.

Yes in my actual experience there's not only thinking.

So do you see this now in a different light or the confusion is still there? Attention basically is the isolation of one “thing” out of the whole (where are actually no things) and further creating a story about it ("apple" example). It’s all thought/thinking. Is there really a "breath" that needs to be focused on? But we’ll explore this in more detail, once we move on.

Ok the whole always remains there . There's not really a "breath" to be focused on!But the confusion then is why is there this meditation/mindfulness practice? Where do these instructions "focus on your breath" help? Are helpful in an initial stage and then let them go?

Thanks,

Angelos

[poppyseed]

Hi Angelos

When I look I find that the senses are found there simultanuously but the sense of smelling is different from the sense of seeing.....I lose it in this point and I feel that the boundaries are clear there . Depsite this yes the noticing_thinking_sensing_seeing_hearing_tasting_smelling is more real than noticing_thinking

If you can point to smelling, seeing, etc with the word "experiencing", or "sensing" ,or "existance", are there really different senses? We are seeing "green", "red", "blue" but it’s still seeing, only thought marks it as different "colours", finding "pauses"/borders in the flow, right?. Only with thoughts we can differentiate between senses and classify them as “this” or “that”. Experience is never the same and in way it’s always the same :)

Ok the whole always remains there . There's not really a "breath" to be focused on!But the confusion then is why is there this meditation/mindfulness practice? Where do these instructions "focus on your breath" help? Are helpful in an initial stage and then let them go?

See, once you have concepts like “breath”, “attention”, “meditation” etc, thoughts can find a relationship between them. BUT, is life really like language? In reality, there is only existence, whatever is happening right now. There are no parts, no fragments. Existence is not like a jigsaw puzzle with millions of billions of pieces. There are no pieces at all, there is only existence / life / what IS, which is whole... But we might be getting a bit ahead of ourselves. Let’s go back to the inquiry

If I look for the I , it seems that there’s an entity inside the body who pulls the air in the lungs. I cannot form this entity in my mind because it has invisible qualities. The same entity (soul,psyche) is behind the eyes. When I touch something I clearly feel the boundaries of the body. So as entity I understand that I am inside these boundaries. Even when I close my eyes I feel my hands, my feets, my cheeks , my back in the chair. So I feel that I am an entity entrenched by the limits of the body. I am not everywhere. I am closed in this location. A good marked area , a separate self………

Let’s explore what “body” is…

1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience –
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear
2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

LOOK very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.

Love
Rali

[Bonan]

Hi Rali,

1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience –
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear

With closed eyes there’s not cold can or better the thought “cold can” or “fingers” doesn’t pop up. It’s a sensation that my mind labels as “cold”. The cold appears as a thought content . I observe that at first the sensation appears and then a thought cold pops up.

2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

No from the pure sensations how tall is the body is not known.
The body has not a specific weight or volume.
In this actual experience the body has not a shape or form.
Clearly there’s only the sensation not the body and the chair.
There are just sensations so it’ just a body . “My body” is just thought content
Yeah when I close the eyes I cannot define where is the inside and where is the outside.
The label “body” refers actually to a subjective experience . The actual experience of the body is the sensations.
No the “body “ cannot do things because a label cannot do things . The “body” is not a doer . Activities happen spontaneously from a combination of things (random thoughts , movements in the space, energies)

Love,

Angelos

[poppyseed]

Hi Angelos

No from the pure sensations how tall is the body is not known.
The body has not a specific weight or volume.
In this actual experience the body has not a shape or form.
Clearly there’s only the sensation not the body and the chair.
There are just sensations so it’ just a body . “My body” is just thought content
Yeah when I close the eyes I cannot define where is the inside and where is the outside.

Very good!

The label “body” refers actually to a subjective experience . The actual experience of the body is the sensations.

What experience is “subjective” and what is “objective” in DE? “Subjective” and “objective” in reference to what?
The actual experience of the body is thought. Thought points to sensation, colours, smells :), and tastes :) (if you lick it), and labels it a ‘body’, but a body cannot be found as actual experience. Is that clear?

Activities happen spontaneously from a combination of things (random thoughts , movements in the space, energies

What are “activities”, “movements in space” and “energies” in DE?

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Love
Rali

[Bonan]

Hi Rali,

Have a nice week!

What experience is “subjective” and what is “objective” in DE? “Subjective” and “objective” in reference to what?
The actual experience of the body is thought. Thought points to sensation, colours, smells :), and tastes :) (if you lick it), and labels it a ‘body’, but a body cannot be found as actual experience. Is that clear?

"Subjective" and "Objective" in DE are thought content (thoughts arisnig)
You mean for example from the seeing in the mirror is formed a thought about the body. Or hearing from the voices in experience that we have a body.

What are “activities”, “movements in space” and “energies” in DE?

"Activities" are seeing_hearing_sensing_thoughts arising_smelling_tasting , "movements in space" are thoughts arising, seeing, hearing and sensing and "energies" are sensing

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

Basically there is connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror not because just thoughts suggest there is but through seeing. All of this is seeing independently from the content.

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

No the image does not suggest that it is a "body" at all. There are only shape and colours (seeing)

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

Only the mental images suggest this!No "knowledge"

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

Only sensations

(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

There are the sensations of seeing, hearing, sensing
No in the actual experience there's not "walking' at all
Only thoughts about "walking"
Only thoughts about a "body" can be found.
No I cannot find the thing "walking"

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

There is only the image that is labelled "room" and appearing sensations without any location

Love,

Angelos

[poppyseed]

Hi Angelos
It snowed today. The last time it snowed was 2012 :)

Have a nice week!

Thank you and you too! So far so good!

The actual experience of the body is thought. Thought points to sensation, colours, smells :), and tastes :) (if you lick it), and labels it a ‘body’, but a body cannot be found as actual experience. Is that clear?

You mean for example from the seeing in the mirror is formed a thought about the body. Or hearing from the voices in experience that we have a body.

I mean that “body” can be experienced only as a thought, which points to sensations, colours (with eyes open), smells … Sensations, colours etc are there together with a thought saying “it’s a body”

Basically there is connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror not because just thoughts suggest there is but through seeing. All of this is seeing independently from the content.

Is there really a connection between sensation, colours and thought?
Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes. Lift your leg and pay attention to the sensation of “leg lifted”
Open your eyes and now pay attention to the sight of the leg only.
While looking at the leg, pay attention to the sensation of the leg.
Do sight and sensation appear simultaneously? Do they appear separately? Do they depend on each other? Is there a link between them? What does the link look like?
Again, are senses separate “things”? Remember… Are there really noticing_thinking and noticing_sensing, or noticing_thinking_sensing_seeing_hearing_tasting_smelling or THIS/what IS?

We don’t experience our senses individually. Rather, these are different aspects of experience. Mind tells us that our senses are separate streams of information. We see with our eyes, hear with our ears, feel with our skin, smell with our nose, taste with our tongue. In DE, though, it is seen as a one experience. “Senses” affect each other. Although speech is perceived through the ears, what we see can change what we hear. In this video, a man produces the same syllable over and over again. If you watch his mouth, you’ll hear the syllable “fah,” but if you look away, you’ll hear “bah.” Although your ears hear “bah,” your eyes see “fah”. This phenomenon is known as the McGurk effect. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k8fHR9jKVM ) Even though it might look as there are clearly defined senses, DE shows a different story.

There is only the image that is labelled "room" and appearing sensations without any location

Very good!

So if you have to revisit your answer:

If I look for the I , it seems that there’s an entity inside the body who pulls the air in the lungs. I cannot form this entity in my mind because it has invisible qualities. The same entity (soul,psyche) is behind the eyes. When I touch something I clearly feel the boundaries of the body. So as entity I understand that I am inside these boundaries. Even when I close my eyes I feel my hands, my feets, my cheeks , my back in the chair. So I feel that I am an entity entrenched by the limits of the body. I am not everywhere. I am closed in this location. A good marked area , a separate self………

What are “hands”, “cheeks”, “eyes”, “skin”…? Do they have a location, or the location is a label? Are there "left hand" and "right hand"? "left" and "right" in refence to what? Where is “behind the eyes”? Is there an “inside” or an “outside” of the body? Does the body have “boundaries” or “limits”? Where could possibly this “I” be located?

Love
Rali

[Bonan]

Hi Rali,

It snowed today. The last time it snowed was 2012 :)

Impessive!

I mean that “body” can be experienced only as a thought, which points to sensations, colours (with eyes open), smells … Sensations, colours etc are there together with a thought saying “it’s a body”

Ok now its crystal clear! Τhe "body" is only the thought which is not all the actual experience!Right?

Is there really a connection between sensation, colours and thought?
Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes. Lift your leg and pay attention to the sensation of “leg lifted”
Open your eyes and now pay attention to the sight of the leg only.
While looking at the leg, pay attention to the sensation of the leg.
Do sight and sensation appear simultaneously? Do they appear separately? Do they depend on each other? Is there a link between them? What does the link look like?
Again, are senses separate “things”? Remember… Are there really noticing_thinking and noticing_sensing, or noticing_thinking_sensing_seeing_hearing_tasting_smelling or THIS/what IS

?

Yeah the thought depends on the sensations, the images we have come from the sensations and the colours we experience.
Sight and sensation appear simulataneously. I think that they depend on each other. While looking my leg is like the attention to the sensation is more intense.

What are “hands”, “cheeks”, “eyes”, “skin”…? Do they have a location, or the location is a label? Are there "left hand" and "right hand"? "left" and "right" in refence to what? Where is “behind the eyes”? Is there an “inside” or an “outside” of the body? Does the body have “boundaries” or “limits”? Where could possibly this “I” be located?

They are sublables of the label "body" so they are thoughts point to sensations. So as thoughts they have no location and surely the location is a label. "Left" and "right" is totally relative the "right" someone sees it as "left" in the "opposite side". In reality we cannot go behind the eyes to know this (new insight)oh oh oh oh ! yes I am not behind the eyes...........Something that does not exist cannot have boundaries and limits....The "i" is located nowhere.

[poppyseed]

Hi Angelos

Ok now its crystal clear! Τhe "body" is only the thought which is not all the actual experience!Right?

Yes! Perfect!

Yeah the thought depends on the sensations, the images we have come from the sensations and the colours we experience.
Sight and sensation appear simulataneously. I think that they depend on each other. While looking my leg is like the attention to the sensation is more intense.

Again, can the senses be separated without thought content? Do they really exist on their own or are they just labels/thoughts ABOUT whatever is happening/THIS? Does experience/THIS/the whole have parts that depend on each other, or that happens only in thought content, where “things” are isolated from the whole, labelled and further relationships between them is “observed”?

Something that does not exist cannot have boundaries and limits....The "i" is located nowhere.

Very good! So we’ve explored the thinker and the feel-er.
Let’s have a look at the idea of control, choice and decisions. Please explore the exercises below and report your findings! Remember that we’re looking for some kind of entity, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’. Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’, but remember we are not interested in “seems like” and “feels like” entities, but ones that could be described.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over.

2. Put two objects that you like in front of you (e.g. a cup of coffee and a glass of juice)

Step1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
Step2. Count to 5.
Step3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?

3. Please take me through a biggish decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you are able to share more details about your decision making...

How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?

Please take your time with each exercise! Repeat as many times as you need and then write the answers for all of them. Watch like a hawk. Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire with the questions.
Love
Rali

[Bonan]

Hi Rali,

Again, can the senses be separated without thought content? Do they really exist on their own or are they just labels/thoughts ABOUT whatever is happening/THIS? Does experience/THIS/the whole have parts that depend on each other, or that happens only in thought content, where “things” are isolated from the whole, labelled and further relationships between them is “observed”?

No the senses cannot be separeted without thought content. It's label/thoughts about whatever is happening. No the whole has not parts. The isolation creates this illusion.

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over.

Looking clearly

The movement isn't controlled by something
No the thought doesn't control it
A "controller" cannot be located
The decison happened spontaneously

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?

Step 1 I chose a glass of orange and a glass of milk. I didn't "choose" the qualities . There were there and were recognized. They appear by themselves. I didn't "choose" these preferences and they pop up by themselves

Step 2 No I did not "choose" the sequence of event . I did not "choose" to shut down the preferences to give way to counting. Oh no I didn't directly experience n entity doing the choosing.

Step 3 No while I made the choices , these choices popped up and nothing arised that said "I am the chooser"

How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?

I made the decision to change career . The circumstances were COVID-19, no potential for growth, bad treatment from the leader of my department, no satisfaction for the tasks and this jod. All of these happened suddenly. Before some years I could not imagine that I would change career . Surely all of these conditions were outside of my influence. In my control was only to set some boundaries and to recontextualize the situation. Finally popped up the thought to resign from this job.

Thank you,

Angelos

[poppyseed]

Hi Angelos

Very good observations!

The movement isn't controlled by something
No the thought doesn't control it
A "controller" cannot be located
The decison happened spontaneously

Exactly!
You might find this video interesting:
https://vimeo.com/90101368?fbclid=IwAR3

I made the decision to change career . The circumstances were COVID-19, no potential for growth, bad treatment from the leader of my department, no satisfaction for the tasks and this jod. All of these happened suddenly. Before some years I could not imagine that I would change career . Surely all of these conditions were outside of my influence. In my control was only to set some boundaries and to recontextualize the situation. Finally popped up the thought to resign from this job.

Well, you didn’t choose your upbringing, your ambitions, others attitudes, COVID circumstances. Your "inclinations", conditioning, etc. all come to play a role in “decision making”, and those are built on top of other things. So, is there a “decision” at all, OR is it plain cause and effect playing out and thought announcing and claiming the “decision”? Or to word it differently, thoughts self-organise around experience based on previous conditioning (old thought content). Can you see it?

But!! Do cause and effect exist without thought? How are ‘cause’ and ‘effect’ experienced directly? When could possibly cause and effect take place when there is only NOW/ what is happening? What is time without memory (thought content)? Can you directly experience ‘past’ or ‘future’? Can you directly experience ‘1 min ago’ or ‘1s ago’?
There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?
Love
Rali

[Bonan]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for the video. I will watch it!

Well, you didn’t choose your upbringing, your ambitions, others attitudes, COVID circumstances. Your "inclinations", conditioning, etc. all come to play a role in “decision making”, and those are built on top of other things. So, is there a “decision” at all, OR is it plain cause and effect playing out and thought announcing and claiming the “decision”? Or to word it differently, thoughts self-organise around experience based on previous conditioning (old thought content). Can you see it?

Yeah I see it! The irony is that it happened synchronicity! Before your these words that I see now I had these insights!!!!I didn't choose my genetics, my family, my conditioning, my country , my teachers. My life construction, emotions and thoughts are based on all these things. There is not "decision making" . All the time I was trying to decide clearly I couldn't do it. The conditions were making the decision obvious! Some moments of awareness and then intuition makes the work.

But!! Do cause and effect exist without thought? How are ‘cause’ and ‘effect’ experienced directly? When could possibly cause and effect take place when there is only NOW/ what is happening? What is time without memory (thought content)? Can you directly experience ‘past’ or ‘future’? Can you directly experience ‘1 min ago’ or ‘1s ago’?
There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

From actual experience I look that there is not cause and effect. The causes that I am writing this sentenece at this moment are infinite. Yeah one thought can say that there is one cause for one effect but I see it clearly as illusion. No I cannot experience "past" or "future" because the thoughts/memories/projection about them happen NOW. I had an insight: that Ι cannot specify exactly the NOW!!!!!!! Where is the now closed in one minute or in one second?. You can devide infinetely!!So the NOW is infinite!!! Also I cannot define in the "timeline" the exact exact moment I felt conscious!!!When my birth happened exaclty? In the moment of my conception? In the first breath? When my head was out of the womb?

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

No there is a continuous experience. The line of time is thought arising in DE.
There's not moment. I cannot define where the "moment" begins and ends.
No there is not any actual or direct experience of one event following another. There is only actual experience with thoughts arising.
The "present moment" is moving as fast the thoughts say (illusion)
I cannot find the point in which this moment began.
Since I cannot define where the moment begins and ends then I cannot know how the "now" lasts when the "now" exactly becomes the past.
The "past " in actual expaerience is thoughts arising (memory)
Only thoughts I can find about the "time"

The "time" and the quantification of the "time" are mind inventions/creations.Very practical for our everyday life but this is big big illusion in our case,

Thank you,

Angelos