What Self?

[universalone]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The self we take ourselves to be is nothing but a belief. Thoughts come up with content and are taken to be the truth. In reality they are experienced and keep passing through.

What are you looking for at LU?
To see through the illusion. To stop identifying with the mind made self which causes so much unnecessary suffering. To be at peace with whatever the situation presents rather than trying to get away from the moment and reach some future place.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope to be pointed in the right direction, to bring the beliefs that are causing the illusion to remain to the surface. I hope to be able to finally experience life without the mind clouding reality.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Initially started looking into Buddhism and eventually landed onto meditation and found out about awakening which led me to then find the usual teachers Eckhart, Mooji, Ramana, Rupert Spira. As far as practiced go mostly self inquiry and sitting meditation although recently more inclined towards self inquiry.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Bluejay]

Hi,

I'm Henri. What would you like me to call you?

Welcome to the forum. I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like?

If yes, then we can start...

If you haven't already, please read the disclaimer here: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... isclaimer/

And then have a look at what Liberation Unleashed is not in the FAQ: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some guidelines (you may already be familiar with most of this, but just in case):

1. Post at least once every 24 to 48 hours. I'm not strict about this, but I would prefer it if you posted regularly. If you can't, please let me know.

2. Be 100% honest. There is no judgment here. No answer or question is silly or stupid. Your progress is key.

3. This process is based on direct experience, which means sensation, smell, taste, sight, sound, observed thoughts, and so on. There is no need to rely too much on the mind for answers, so long philosophical and analytical answers are best avoided.

4. Pause any other teachings, rituals, books, and practices you are currently involved in. It is best to put all your effort into this inquiry for as long as it lasts. A meditation practice is fine, but anything else can be a distraction.

5. Technology can be problematic. I recommend you type your answers in a text editor like MS Word or Google Docs, and then copy and paste them into this thread. This way you avoid losing your answer if there's a technical glitch.

6. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to answer each question individually. Here are instructions on how to use the quote function if it is not already clear: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And to start, I'd like to know your expectations. You don't have to use direct experience for this. Just share what comes to mind:

1. How will life change?
2. How will you change?
3. What will be different?
4. What is missing?

Enjoy! :)

[universalone]

Hi Henri,

Thanks for reaching out. You can call me Jack and I will do my best to pause other practices.

I have read a bit about expectations on this journey and they are said to be like clouds covering the sun. Best seen and let go of.

1. How will life change?

A thought arises saying that it would like life to be lighter and easier. That there will be more bliss and peace and that thoughts are more quickly seen to be just a function of experience and that they just come and go rather than dragging me along with their story.

2. How will you change?

I hope to become more mindful and alert. Less involved in the mind and more at peace with the current moment.

3. What will be different?

That life will be easier because there isn't so much thought content clouding up reality.

4. What is missing?

There is a feeling of separation. That something is missing and that was is, is not enough.

All the things mentioned above are thoughts which came up. They are seen as thoughts and expectations and they just go on past. They were experienced, sensations arose that were labeled such as "anxiety" and "wanting". This is all seen yet the sensation of "not enough" remains. Could it be that the Self has been seen to be an illusion yet doubt is being believed rather than just allowed to be?

Hope I did that right :)!

Thanks,
Jack

[Bluejay]

Hi Jack!

I have read a bit about expectations on this journey and they are said to be like clouds covering the sun. Best seen and let go of.

Agreed. Expectations can be so assumed that they become invisible, but we will deal with that if it comes up.

A thought arises saying that it would like life to be lighter and easier. That there will be more bliss and peace and that thoughts are more quickly seen to be just a function of experience and that they just come and go rather than dragging me along with their story.

Bliss and peace can happen, but it also often doesn't. Seeing through the illusion of self, a doer, a thinker, a seer is simply seeing through a belief. Sometimes there's nothing special that happens.

That life will be easier because there isn't so much thought content clouding up reality.

The amount of thoughts can also remain the same, but it's not a problem any longer.

All the things mentioned above are thoughts which came up. They are seen as thoughts and expectations and they just go on past. They were experienced, sensations arose that were labeled such as "anxiety" and "wanting". This is all seen yet the sensation of "not enough" remains. Could it be that the Self has been seen to be an illusion yet doubt is being believed rather than just allowed to be?

I don't know. We will explore together and find out :)

It's good that you share anything that comes up. Often there can be a way that you know things should be, and then there's a way that you feel things are, if that makes sense.

For example if you believe that all ropes are snakes, then you will avoid ropes, even if you intellectually understand this not to be the case because other people have told you so. Your actions tell us what's really going on beneath the hood, so to speak.

So the more honest you can be with what is coming up, the better.

Let's start laying the foundation:

Socks Exercise

There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers), and seeing (looking in direct experience).

For example: If I ask you what color your socks are, you can answer in two ways:

- You can think and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

- Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are.

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

[universalone]

That was a quick response!

Yes it is clear. I've read through a lot of other posts (but now I'll cease since I'm being guided) and I understand the difference.

In direct experience there is my foot (colour and a thought "my foot"). There is also anxiety experienced (sensation and a label/thought). There is a desire to see the truth (sensation + thought).

Does that make sense? :)

Thanks,
Jack

[Bluejay]

That was a quick response!

Your speed is quite commendable as well ;)

Yes it is clear. I've read through a lot of other posts (but now I'll cease since I'm being guided) and I understand the difference.

In direct experience there is my foot (colour and a thought "my foot"). There is also anxiety experienced (sensation and a label/thought). There is a desire to see the truth (sensation + thought).

Does that make sense? :)

Makes perfect sense. We can jump ahead then. If something is unclear we can spend more time on it.

Since you've read through other posts, it's good to be aware if your mind jumps in because it 'knows' the answer. If this goes unnoticed then no progress will be made because there is no honest looking in direct experience.

So look with fresh eyes, as if suddenly finding yourself in a new world :)

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what do they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts about something, because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought about ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk about can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

- Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
- Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Enjoy and let me know what you find out :)

[universalone]

What about the content of thoughts, what do they describe?

More thoughts. Thoughts describing thoughts and creating a story.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought about ‘apple’?

In DE 'apple' is thought content. A label for experience. In direct experience there is colour and thought.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No that exists only in thought content.

There is a sensation arising in the body which thought labels as fear. This is seen and allowed to be.

Appreciate the effort you're putting Henri :)!

Thanks again,
Jack

[Bluejay]

For the exercises, take your time. With these next set of questions, I'd like you to sit with them for a day or so.

There are 7 questions, so you could take one question and allow it to be the focus for 1-2 hours as you go about your day, and then change to the next one.

Look if something changes during the day as you focus on these questions. And zoom in on the looking. For example, with "Where is 'I'?" - don't just conclude "it's not there." Zoom in and look at what is going on.

If there's wanting things to go faster, try saying: I'm okay with this going slow (or a variation of it). Then sit with the feelings, images, sounds that come from that. Repeat the sentence until it feels done.

Okay, let's apply what we looked at in the apple exercise, and explore the 'I'/'me':

What is the experience of "I" in direct experience?

How is "I" experienced right now?

Where is "I"?

What is known for sure?

What does the thought "I" point to?

Does the thought know anything about an 'I'?

Can an 'I' be found in actual experience?

Enjoy!

[universalone]

"You" scared me off yesterday by telling "me" to sit down and just let these questions sink in. I have done so good sir, please find the answers below.

What is the experience of "I" in direct experience?

The experience of an "I" is a thought taken to be the truth. A little thought! How could it be so clearly in our face and yet we allow it to rule our life, brilliant.

How is "I" experienced right now?

"I" is experienced as reality however upon investigation it is clear that "I" is merely sensations, colours, sounds, tastes and thoughts. There is seeing of colours, some of which are moving and sensations are felt. ("I am looking at the screen while typing a message to dear old Henri"). Unless noticed, the story rules.

Where is "I"?

In thought content, there is no I in DE. ("What a silly question. I, of course, am right here looking out of these eyeballs and typing a message to you. Of course I exist!")

What is known for sure?

This is known. Experience unfolding and the thoughts trying to process it all and turn it into a lovely little story. The mind is a beautiful tool but a poor master. Going further still seeing is known, feeling is known (both as internal feelings and external feelings - which the mind labels as "in me" & "outside of me" but in DE there is just sensation), tastes, hearing and thought content.

What does the thought "I" point to?

It points to other thoughts. There is no “I” in DE. It goes something like “What does I point to? To me of course! This, right here, I am seeing and hearing. Of course I am here. Can’t you see me, Henri? Hellooo!”

Does the thought know anything about an 'I'?

This was an interesting pointer. No, the thoughts don’t know anything about an “I”. Merely messenger and its content. If you look to the thoughts however “Of course. I know everything about I. I am Jack, I am 27 and I obviously exist!”

Can an 'I' be found in actual experience?

No it cannot. It only exists in the lovely stream of thought content.

Thanks again, Henri :)

P.S When does the levitating start? I was also promised laser beams from the eyes?

[Bluejay]

"You" scared me off yesterday by telling "me" to sit down and just let these questions sink in. I have done so good sir, please find the answers below.

Good :)

The experience of an "I" is a thought taken to be the truth. A little thought! How could it be so clearly in our face and yet we allow it to rule our life, brilliant.

Hold your horses.

How much of this answer is direct experience?

In your introduction you wrote:

I hope to be pointed in the right direction, to bring the beliefs that are causing the illusion to remain to the surface.

Can you describe how this illusion is still active for you?

internal feelings and external feelings

I'm not familiar with this distinction. Can you elaborate?

This was an interesting pointer. No, the thoughts don’t know anything about an “I”. Merely messenger and its content.

How do you know the thought doesn't know about "I"?

No it cannot. It only exists in the lovely stream of thought content.

If no "I" can be found, then what is there? Please describe without using thoughts.

When does the levitating start? I was also promised laser beams from the eyes?

That will be an extra upgrade :-)

[universalone]

Let me try to be clearer with my words.

How much of this answer is direct experience?

Took me a while but I calculated and it’s about 96.3152% DE. Jokes aside, there is a knowing before thought. Looking at thought for an answer is known to be false as thought is not real and cannot understand it. Thinking or any effort to understand it is moving away from it.

Can you describe how this illusion is still active for you?

The illusion appears active in the form of thought content however it is part of experience. There is no “I” in direct experience but occasionally sensations arise in the body which thought labels as “anxiety” then that is followed by “but I shouldn’t be anxious! I’m awake!”. This is noticed and understood to be thought just doing thought things. As time goes by however doubt has become less sticky, it is seen immediately as an illusion. “Oh yes Jack is sad! Of course. But you’re just a thought” and sensations do their appearance and eventually they go away. No Jack here that needs to be pitied or to fix things.

I'm not familiar with this distinction. Can you elaborate?

Pardon me. I meant to say sensations but I substituted feelings for it. Sensations are felt, but thoughts come up indicating a separation when in fact in direct experience there is none. There is a sensation which thought labels as “wind on my skin and is outside of me” and then there is a sensation which thought labels as “anxiety inside my chest”. In direct experience there is only sensation appearing. Thought attributes false meaning to it.

How do you know the thought doesn't know about "I"?

“I” is thought content. There is no such thing in direct experience as “I”. When I say it doesn’t know about “I” I meant it doesn’t exist in direct experience. Thoughts appear and disappear, their content is not real. Just because a thought comes up and says “that’s a red firetruck” it does not mean the thought “knows”, there is only a colour/sight in direct experience.

If no "I" can be found, then what is there? Please describe without using thoughts.

Everything. Thought content is taken to be more important than everything else and that results in experience being clouded. Outside of thought content there is everything.

There is a knowing behind it all. A sense of understanding. It does not feel like a thought, as thought comes up but there is a clear seeing of “That is not real.”. Not sure if that makes sense however experience is definitely simpler as the story is no longer dominating daily life. Old annoyances are immediately noticed and they are just happening and passing. Usually there would be a barrage of thoughts saying “This is not fair, it always happens to me, how could they do that!” and now it is clear that they are just happening. There is nobody here to claim them.

Cheers :)!

[Bluejay]

The illusion appears active in the form of thought content however it is part of experience. There is no “I” in direct experience but occasionally sensations arise in the body which thought labels as “anxiety” then that is followed by “but I shouldn’t be anxious! I’m awake!”. This is noticed and understood to be thought just doing thought things. As time goes by however doubt has become less sticky, it is seen immediately as an illusion. “Oh yes Jack is sad! Of course. But you’re just a thought” and sensations do their appearance and eventually they go away. No Jack here that needs to be pitied or to fix things.

This sounds good.

Are you controlling this process of realizing it is an illusion?

Do you ever sit with feelings that come up, or do you always deconstruct with 'Jack is a thought' or something similar?

What are your expectations for when you 100% see that there is no inherent self?

Sensations are felt, but thoughts come up indicating a separation when in fact in direct experience there is none. There is a sensation which thought labels as “wind on my skin and is outside of me” and then there is a sensation which thought labels as “anxiety inside my chest”. In direct experience there is only sensation appearing. Thought attributes false meaning to it.

Understood. Thank you for clarifying!

“I” is thought content. There is no such thing in direct experience as “I”. When I say it doesn’t know about “I” I meant it doesn’t exist in direct experience. Thoughts appear and disappear, their content is not real. Just because a thought comes up and says “that’s a red firetruck” it does not mean the thought “knows”, there is only a colour/sight in direct experience.

Okay, good. I'm being picky with my questions because I want to make sure :)

Everything. Thought content is taken to be more important than everything else and that results in experience being clouded. Outside of thought content there is everything.

When thought content clouds experience, what can you do to get out of it?

There is a knowing behind it all. A sense of understanding. It does not feel like a thought, as thought comes up but there is a clear seeing of “That is not real.”. Not sure if that makes sense however experience is definitely simpler as the story is no longer dominating daily life. Old annoyances are immediately noticed and they are just happening and passing. Usually there would be a barrage of thoughts saying “This is not fair, it always happens to me, how could they do that!” and now it is clear that they are just happening. There is nobody here to claim them.

Makes perfect sense!

Cheerio! :)

[universalone]

Are you controlling this process of realizing it is an illusion?

No. There is no controller here in direct experience. There are sensations and thoughts claiming to be a controller but alas they are just thoughts!

Do you ever sit with feelings that come up, or do you always deconstruct with 'Jack is a thought' or something similar?

Yes. Whenever feelings arise (mostly when "negative" but sometimes even "positive") there is a being with them. Fully experiencing them in the moment. Thoughts usually are abundant during these times but that is just fine.

What are your expectations for when you 100% see that there is no inherent self?

Apart from levitation and laser beams nothing. Thoughts want more and think it is what is best and required to be happy but Happiness is a thought. Experience is now and expectations live in thought.

When thought content clouds experience, what can you do to get out of it?

Nothing. There is nobody to do anything here. Thoughts come saying "focus less on thoughts, be mindful, just watch it all!" but those are simply thoughts.

Okay, good. I'm being picky with my questions because I want to make sure :)

Please do. Bring the silly beliefs to light and let's purge them!

I managed to levitate slightly today so I think it's working! :)
It's funny because even if levitation where to actually happen eventually the thoughts would turn into "but I don't have that, or I still need that, what about them they have all that stuff!". Haha.

[Bluejay]

This all sounds good to me. You seem very clear on this.

So two things come to mind:

1) You have seen through the self illusion but you have an expectation that something else should happen, something more. Maybe a quieter mind, more peace? Fewer doubts?

The self illusion is simply seeing that there is no thinker, feeler, hearer, doer, manager of life, and so on. Anxiety is included in that. Thoughts saying things are included. Everything is included.

The only difference is that it is claimed by no one. It simply happens.

2) You conceptually understand all this very well but your lived experience doesn't reflect it. Meaning, you see that no one is doing, but you still feel like you are in control in everyday life. I have no way of knowing, because I only see what you write.

Do any of these ring true?

[universalone]

Hmm... both ring true ironically.

In the sense that if I look to thought then there is a "doer". Thoughts would say "I did that earlier" but thoughts are seen and are known to not be true. In the flow of things it is all experienced. Words are appearing on the screen right now as "I type" but experientially there is waiting, thoughts arise and "fingers" move to type.

I feel as though the illusion has been seen and there is the mind grasping to understand, to figure out how it could be so simple. Thoughts do arise such as "but I was promised bliss!" or "Where is the 'everyone is oneness' bullshit?! There must be more!" but they are also seen as thought.

Experientially life appears very much the same, just not personal because there isn't a person here to cling to.

Let me give two examples from today and hopefully this will either bring out some beliefs or clear it up.

I have a colleague at work who can sometimes act in a selfish manner. He does not try to understand a problem but rather immediately turns to me for assistance. A few weeks ago the same thing would have happened and anger would come up and the thoughts would go off "how could he, it's not fair! I try my best to learn to not bother others and he just gets away with it!". Today however, the anger showed up and the sensations + label was seen and there was a kind of space. Thoughts did come up but they were mostly "I wish he would try harder to understand things" and I mostly tried to lead him to search for the answers himself. This does not mean I will continue to encourage his behaviour but I feel it is much more skilful to guide and teach rather than reprimand. So experientially there was still a bubbling up of anger but it was given the space to be and allowed to move on. There was no attachment to it by means of a story.

Another example was coming home there was a hell of a lot of traffic. Much more than usual and it was at a standstill. Given that I was tired from work and happened to have a headache there was some anger and frustration. These were noted and thoughts did come up "why did this happen? All I wanted was to go home and relax" but they were seen and not identified with.

To me this feels natural and true. There is doubt but I think it's natural doubt. I can't imagine that after seeing that the mind would kind of reformat itself and suddenly we're mindless & sensationless dummies but rather we're more intrigued-by-sensations-and-thoughts dummies.

Cast your judgement, oh wise one, and let us once and for all proclaim awakening! (Sorry for the jokes but the obvious nature of it is quite funny to me, that it wasn't noticed before.)