Looking for a guide

[okjose]

Hi Henri,

There was the drop moment and spaciousness from admitting what I already seemed to know, that there is definitely no separate self here. Then a lot of fear and and anxiety which I'm ever more open to meet and acknowledge when it arises.
When my partner came back from college last night it was was a bit like seeing her a new. Like I'd never paid proper attention to her. My senses were so heightened. Or maybe less energy being taken by the "me thought". There was also fear and anxiety (I believe this an old mechanism of worrying about what people think of me, like you said). This morning I woke up feeling fine and then a thought "oh yeh theres meant be fear here" and it came, fear comes and I go through your questions and look at it or try to see it with kindness and welcoming. There seems to be a time for rest and a time for looking but really is just whatever arises. In fact I think a lot of different memories and fears have been coming up to be seen. The big one is still "what people think of me". It feels like an airing out process. Like Ilona says about clarifying. I just rewatched Lisa's video which is so beautiful and resonates a lot.

It's also useful to ask: Can you control how people see you?

Nope :)

Can other people control how they see you? Do they have a chooser that you don't? :)

This question is wonderful. There's a lovely feeling that comes with seeing the possibility that everyone else (all the other bodies) are the same. Just wide open space or something. I'd like to look into this more.

Can you even control what you do, or is it simply arising?

It is simply arising and there's a lot of comfort in that or some sort of pleasure.

The seeing that the self and control is an illusion can be so clear at times and comes with a lovely feeling of spaciousness. Then the thinking of that sentence can induce fear, threat and anger. It like there's a character called Jose and a mechanism in place to defend that. But simple logic and looking seems to be the way to go. And a dedication for truth as at times I want to run away. But the question "what's true?" is like a guide.

Clarifying seems to be the the main focus at the moment. Like an airing out.

All in all I'm looking forward to seeing how things play out. From the early stages of this looking there has been a growing feeling of freedom and ease and spaciousness. How that works I don't know. But it seems like whatever is hard to look at (ie the "self", "control") brings the reward of this spaciousness aferwards.

[Bluejay]

Or maybe less energy being taken by the "me thought". There was also fear and anxiety (I believe this an old mechanism of worrying about what people think of me, like you said). This morning I woke up feeling fine and then a thought "oh yeh theres meant be fear here" and it came, fear comes and I go through your questions and look at it or try to see it with kindness and welcoming. There seems to be a time for rest and a time for looking but really is just whatever arises. In fact I think a lot of different memories and fears have been coming up to be seen. The big one is still "what people think of me". It feels like an airing out process. Like Ilona says about clarifying. I just rewatched Lisa's video which is so beautiful and resonates a lot.

Sounds good!

It's also good to make a distinction here between seeing through the self illusion and trauma. The anxiety and fear is likely from something, or multiple somethings, that happened in the past. That will need to be dealt with separately.

However, you're already doing it. Just being with it is the key.

This question is wonderful. There's a lovely feeling that comes with seeing the possibility that everyone else (all the other bodies) are the same. Just wide open space or something. I'd like to look into this more.

Yes, exactly!

What are 'other' people in direct experience?

If you have no separate self, do others?

Like in the stream exercise, look at all the causes and conditions that culminate in other people 'making decisions'. What all is necessary for Jose to choose a certain breakfast, to wear certain clothes that morning?

Then expand this to other people, and look at if they are controlling anything?

All in all I'm looking forward to seeing how things play out. From the early stages of this looking there has been a growing feeling of freedom and ease and spaciousness. How that works I don't know. But it seems like whatever is hard to look at (ie the "self", "control") brings the reward of this spaciousness aferwards.

Absolutely. What seems like an obstacle, or what's hard to look at, is actually the way forward.

So let's do a check-in:

Is there a seer, feeler, hearer, taster, experiencer, witness?

Is there anything having the experience of whatever is happening?

Is this experience happening TO someone?

Is there an autonomous, independent self, separate from the rest of experience?

Has there ever been an independent separate self?

Is there anything that is not totally clear and you would like to look at?

[Bluejay]

Also, you might want to read this: https://www.simplytheseen.com/things-do ... refer.html

Especially the parts about first and second darts.

[okjose]

Hi Henri,

So just to give an update. This morning again I woke up feeling fine then the thought came "oh remember the fear yesterday, is it still here?". And as expected this triggered anxiety and the fear comes and the pushing away happens because of the thought "I'll make it worse" or "it will overtake me and I'll never get out of it". This is most definitely from a past trauma.
So then I tried to welcome it like I have before and see any shame around it etc.. this didn't seem to help this time. Then I asked the question, "well who is this happening to?". And it was clearly revolving around a "me", a picture of me in despair. This actually made the fear die down a fair amount. But there's clearly still some confusion or a belief or attachment to a character. I was able to break it down into it's parts (thought, sensation) and this really helped with the anxiety feeling.
But where there was an underlying feeling of joy before there is now at times an underlying feeling of anxiety but it oscillates between fear and joy. There's some sort of fear in the idea of seeing through "me". The anxiety that pops up is like something that turns my insides cold, it's clearly a past trauma that's being triggered but it feels like it's being triggered by this process. And I'm not sure how to proceed.

The last shift which felt great initially, then thought of doubt quickly crept in and the fear that something had gone wrong or maybe damage had been done began to come because things were a bit disorienting and surreal an intense for a while after.

You said you went through years of anguish. I can only imagine how hard that was. It helped when you shared this. I also went through a dark period in my early 20's of nightly panic attacks and almost constant anxiety, the world appeared gloomy and surreal, this went on for many years. To be honest there's a fear that this process has or will trigger a similar experience. This is where there may be confusion as to what seeing through self means. I think at times I've been spooked by the idea that there's nothing here. Or equating no self with a void or loosing all control. Seeing through self can seem a bit dark and cold.

The link you've shared is wonderful and makes a lot of sense. Especially distinguishing between discomfort and suffering. Or the first and second dart.

There's also a chance I may have been doing all of this a bit too intensely to the point of giving myself a headache at times with focusing. I tend to get a but tunnel vision with things.


I am so sorry for the ramble, Believe it or not I actually cut this down a fair amount. I'm not the best with articulating with pure text format (dislike texting) and so struggle at times and worry that things aren't translating. English is my first language so I dont have that excuse.

What are 'other' people in direct experience?

Image/colour, sensation, sound etc.. but something more. If there is emptiness in everybody it's not just a dead space.

If you have no separate self, do others?

No they wouldn't either. This brings the thought that there's literally no one here which seems to give a feeling of loneliness or like a baron world.

Like in the stream exercise, look at all the causes and conditions that culminate in other people 'making decisions'. What all is necessary for Jose to choose a certain breakfast, to wear certain clothes that morning?

It's a whole chain of events that led to that one decision, like everything is in motion and connected. Or like you said like life life'ing.

Then expand this to other people, and look at if they are controlling anything?

No it can almost be seen as a connected flow of activity.

So let's do a check-in:

Is there a seer, feeler, hearer, taster, experiencer, witness?

In DE there just the seeing, feeling.. theres also the thought "I see" which has some conviction.

Is there anything having the experience of whatever is happening?

In thought there is but in experience it's not. I think there is still a belief or strong association with Jose.

Is this experience happening TO someone?

I can see that it's not but then the me thought (image of the body) is here still

Is there an autonomous, independent self, separate from the rest of experience?

No

Has there ever been an independent separate self?

Theres the memory/thought of me as a kid and it's hard to let that go, even though in direct experience theres only just what is experienced now arising and so that must have always been the case. It's like I'm attached to the idea of me.

Is there anything that is not totally clear and you would like to look at?

Yes maybe the character we create. At the moment it's hard to let go of the Jose character. Do I need to let that go? It's an identity. I never thought I bothered with identity but it feels like there is a crisis of identity. A fear in loosing an identity and in turn any control and stability.


I genuinly feel bad for going round in circles like this. I really do appreciate your patience and all of your help.

[Bluejay]

I genuinly feel bad for going round in circles like this. I really do appreciate your patience and all of your help.

Don't worry. Looking repeatedly is what this comes down to.

There usually comes a point where you know there's no self there, but you still need to look for it to be experiential.

So just to give an update. This morning again I woke up feeling fine then the thought came "oh remember the fear yesterday, is it still here?". And as expected this triggered anxiety and the fear comes and the pushing away happens because of the thought "I'll make it worse" or "it will overtake me and I'll never get out of it". This is most definitely from a past trauma.

You know, before seeing no inherent self, I eventually became so sick of these kind of thoughts that the response became "If this will overtake me then so be it."

When you call the bluff like that, you discover that there's nothing there. At least that was the discovery here :)

Examples:

Thought: "You'll be homeless."
Response: "Okay, let's be homeless then."

Thought: "You will end up all alone."
Response: "Let's find out."

But where there was an underlying feeling of joy before there is now at times an underlying feeling of anxiety but it oscillates between fear and joy. There's some sort of fear in the idea of seeing through "me". The anxiety that pops up is like something that turns my insides cold, it's clearly a past trauma that's being triggered but it feels like it's being triggered by this process. And I'm not sure how to proceed.

You may want to check out Scott Kiloby on YouTube. He talks a lot about trauma.

Basically you use sentences like we've done to fish out the response. For example saying: "Seeing through self will be absolutely fine."

That will get the ball rolling and you pull on that thread. Then you feel everything that comes up, which may take days, weeks, months.

To be honest there's a fear that this process has or will trigger a similar experience. This is where there may be confusion as to what seeing through self means. I think at times I've been spooked by the idea that there's nothing here. Or equating no self with a void or loosing all control. Seeing through self can seem a bit dark and cold.

This is why it is often said that you have to be willing to put everything on the line to do this, because the 'mind' will use everything to make you stop.

There's also a chance I may have been doing all of this a bit too intensely to the point of giving myself a headache at times with focusing. I tend to get a but tunnel vision with things.

Headaches are pretty common from what I can tell during this process. Obviously anything seriously you want to see a doctor and all that.

There's also the question of: Can you control how intense you are with this or not?

I have more answers, but I'll stop here so we can keep these posts reasonable. I'll post them after we wrap up questions/answers in this one :)

[Bluejay]

Maybe this video is helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tPsehnnEk0

[okjose]

Thank you so much for you detailed reply Henri. This morning the thought of anxiety came and I just relaxed and it lost traction and just fell apart so to speak and was seen that it was just imagination. Not saying that theres no more anxiety here but it was nice to be able to relax and not get caught up in the imagination of it all, it's like getting caught in a simulation that you can't see out of once you're in it. Staying with the DE of sound seemed to be a good anchor.
After that I felt a bit of courage to keep looking at what "me" is while lying there and yes it is clearly thought but, like Ilona said, it feels like 'a no go zone', 'or don't look here zone'. But I'm going to look :) it seems to be the only way forwards. I certainly don't want to live a life of hiding from thoughts and sensations (so to speak) but I'll probably be a bit kinder or gentle moving forwards. Still direct though I see that's key :)

You know, before seeing no inherent self, I eventually became so sick of these kind of thoughts that the response became "If this will overtake me then so be it."

When you call the bluff like that, you discover that there's nothing there. At least that was the discovery here :)

Examples:

Thought: "You'll be homeless."
Response: "Okay, let's be homeless then."

Thought: "You will end up all alone."
Response: "Let's find out."

[/quote]
I love this. I think reading this last night is what helped my attitude towards the anxious thinking this morning. This seems to be the way.

You may want to check out Scott Kiloby on YouTube. He talks a lot about trauma.

Yes thank you. I signed up to his free course last night and just did the first part. It's helped hugely! He goes into how to access 'rest' or just rest as the 'awareness' so to speak. Which is exactly what was needed here. I take it as being the lovely stillness that we seem to be. (sounds silly and I don't know how to word it but think you get what I'm referring to)

I'm seeing a holistic therapist in a couple weeks who's already helped me meet and resolve some old traumas in a very visceral way. Which all feels like perfect timing.

This is why it is often said that you have to be willing to put everything on the line to do this, because the 'mind' will use everything to make you stop.

Thank you yes this makes a lot of sense.

Headaches are pretty common from what I can tell during this process. Obviously anything seriously you want to see a doctor and all that.

Ok that's actually good to hear that it can be common. I'll be sure to see a doctor if I get concerned :)

There's also the question of: Can you control how intense you are with this or not?

No, I'm being intense/not intense with this because of a load of conditioning that's happened. I didn't have control over that so this is just the conditioned response.

I have more answers, but I'll stop here so we can keep these posts reasonable. I'll post them after we wrap up questions/answers in this one :)

Thank you :)

[Bluejay]

Thank you so much for you detailed reply Henri. This morning the thought of anxiety came and I just relaxed and it lost traction and just fell apart so to speak and was seen that it was just imagination. Not saying that theres no more anxiety here but it was nice to be able to relax and not get caught up in the imagination of it all, it's like getting caught in a simulation that you can't see out of once you're in it. Staying with the DE of sound seemed to be a good anchor.
After that I felt a bit of courage to keep looking at what "me" is while lying there and yes it is clearly thought but, like Ilona said, it feels like 'a no go zone', 'or don't look here zone'. But I'm going to look :) it seems to be the only way forwards. I certainly don't want to live a life of hiding from thoughts and sensations (so to speak) but I'll probably be a bit kinder or gentle moving forwards. Still direct though I see that's key :)

Nice :)

Summon your inner two year-old. Mom says 'Don't go there' - Two year-old goes there. Touches everything. Puts everything in its mouth. Drools everywhere.

Yes thank you. I signed up to his free course last night and just did the first part. It's helped hugely! He goes into how to access 'rest' or just rest as the 'awareness' so to speak. Which is exactly what was needed here. I take it as being the lovely stillness that we seem to be. (sounds silly and I don't know how to word it but think you get what I'm referring to)

Great. I was going to say to be aware of how he uses 'rest in awareness'. Here at LU we don't tend to use those terms since who is resting as what? But you putting rest and awareness in quotes shows you are aware of this.

Nothing wrong with that approach, but it can be confusing for some.

I'm seeing a holistic therapist in a couple weeks who's already helped me meet and resolve some old traumas in a very visceral way. Which all feels like perfect timing.

Excellent!

Okay, now to the rest of my reply.

Now that the stakes seem to be high, it's very important that you look with fresh eyes.

It can start to feel like your 'mind' is suddenly tired, and thoughts will suddenly 'look' for you and conclude what you already know, so you need to look as if for the first time, every time.

No they wouldn't either. This brings the thought that there's literally no one here which seems to give a feeling of loneliness or like a baron world.

What is behind this feeling?
From where does the knowledge originate to make these conclusions?

In DE there just the seeing, feeling.. theres also the thought "I see" which has some conviction.

What is the experience of "I see"?
Can that which says "I see" actually see anything or is it part of what is seen?

In thought there is but in experience it's not. I think there is still a belief or strong association with Jose.

How do you know there's a strong association?

I can see that it's not but then the me thought (image of the body) is here still

How does the 'image of the body' mean that this experience is happening to someone?

Theres the memory/thought of me as a kid and it's hard to let that go, even though in direct experience theres only just what is experienced now arising and so that must have always been the case. It's like I'm attached to the idea of me.

What makes this thought of you as a kid more important than other thoughts?
How is this attachment experienced?
What is the attachment made of?
How is the "I" connected to the 'idea of me' in direct experience? (look for the connecting points)
What is the difference between I and me in your answer?

Yes maybe the character we create. At the moment it's hard to let go of the Jose character. Do I need to let that go? It's an identity. I never thought I bothered with identity but it feels like there is a crisis of identity. A fear in loosing an identity and in turn any control and stability.

Repeating this... Close your eyes. Imagine biting into a lemon. Now open your eyes. How do you let it go? Trying to let it go is another thought that refers to someone efforting.

Observe the causes and conditions, genetics, societal programming, language, and everything else that have come together in this moment...

Who or what is trying to let go of what exactly?
What is in crisis?
Who claims to be in crisis?
What is the experience of identity?
Does the label 'crisis' contain an actual crisis?

[okjose]

Summon your inner two year-old. Mom says 'Don't go there' - Two year-old goes there. Touches everything. Puts everything in its mouth. Drools everywhere.

Haha brilliant, I shall!

I was going to say to be aware of how he uses 'rest in awareness'. Here at LU we don't tend to use those terms since who is resting as what? But you putting rest and awareness in quotes shows you are aware of this.

Nothing wrong with that approach, but it can be confusing for some.

Yes this makes sense.

No they wouldn't either. This brings the thought that there's literally no one here which seems to give a feeling of loneliness or like a baron world.
What is behind this feeling?

Imagination is what energises it, is this what you mean when you say behind? The feeling itself is a contraction. I would say there’s space or emptiness behind the feeling.

From where does the knowledge originate to make these conclusions?

It not from knowledge. It’s purely fantasy imagination. What made it seem so powerful is that it seems scary like scary idea. But it can be quite funny in a way to see it as pure fantasy.

What is the experience of "I see"?

“I see” experience is a contraction or focus on sensation in the body (head, heart abdomen area) and almost a looking inwards to a thought of an image of how I might be appearing at that moment (which is labeled me). The thought actually temporarily seemingly stops the DE of seeing. Or to put another way, the "I see" thought takes the focus away from the actual seeing of whatever object in the room was being observed.

Can that which says "I see" actually see anything or is it part of what is seen?

It also is part of whats seen for sure.

In thought there is but in experience it's not. I think there is still a belief or strong association with Jose.
How do you know there's a strong association?

I don’t know. I think I say association because it's the imagination of this body and especially of what the the face and eye movement might look like in the moment and That its an almost constant thought overlay. It feels so familiar and like "me".

How does the 'image of the body' mean that this experience is happening to someone?

In DE it does not because even the thought of this body is experienced. But It's just believed that the body is here looking and I am the vulnerable body.

What makes this thought of you as a kid more important than other thoughts?

I'm not sure. If I compare the thought of kid Jose to the thought of an apple theres a contraction and sensation and belief the kid is part of me somehow. Where as the apple is just neutral. But im really not sure with this one.

How is this attachment experienced?

It's sensation in the body and the thought of a child version of Jose and a focusing or a 'holding onto' that sensation and image.

What is the attachment made of?

Oh this is good. Sensation and a thought.

How is the "I" connected to the 'idea of me' in direct experience? (look for the connecting points)

It goes from the inner voice thought "I" and goes directly to sensation primarily in the face then chest and abdomen and an image of the facial expression and body overlaying the sensation.

What is the difference between I and me in your answer?

It's like they're two slight variations of the same thought. "I" feels more like the external body and "me" is more in the chest. But I think this is more linked to how those actual words sound.

Or it's that "I" is a thought of this body and so is "me" but a slight variation to give the impression that one is referring to another. But that would make two of "me" /or two of "I" . Really they are both just thought.

Repeating this... Close your eyes. Imagine biting into a lemon. Now open your eyes. How do you let it go? Trying to let it go is another thought that refers to someone efforting.

Yes :) there wouldn't be any letting go of Jose or Identity. Just a seeing that it's not here.

Observe the causes and conditions, genetics, societal programming, language, and everything else that have come together in this moment...

Who or what is trying to let go of what exactly?

This has me a bit stumped. It goes from I letting the thought character of "I" go. To then seeing that "I" is the character also. It's actually the same thought. The "I" and the character are the same. It goes round in circles. In reality one cant see the other. Thought cant see a thought so it's just one thought and then another thought repeating. It's a trick that's hard to see through. The "I" thought keeps reinventing itself to a point where there are just too many "I"'s. It feels like I'm on the cusp of seeing through it but it's hard to get another perspective.

What is in crisis?

It just the imagination of a Jose in crisis.
Who claims to be in crisis?
Thought does. No one
What is the experience of identity?
It's an imagined character of how I look and sounds. But I think it's also true to say more simply: It's an imagined character. I think I'm starting to see a common thread here. I and imagined "I character" are the same.

This brings up the question: Is the imagined character having the experience. No it (imagined) is also experienced. It seems so close to being seen. Maybe it just is and I'm expecting a big shift. It feels good looking. Seems funny because this is all leading back to your original questions.

Does the label 'crisis' contain an actual crisis?

Haha no not at all. It almost felt like it did but of course not.

[okjose]

Sorry accidentally missed a few quote markers there towards the end.

[Bluejay]

Haha brilliant, I shall!

Another way of doing it to spice things up is to see the fear as a messenger, and go "Hello friend, what news do you bring today? Why are you here?"

Become curious and invite it in for tea.

Sorry accidentally missed a few quote markers there towards the end.

That's unforgivable. We will have to end the inquiry here :--)

It not from knowledge. It’s purely fantasy imagination. What made it seem so powerful is that it seems scary like scary idea. But it can be quite funny in a way to see it as pure fantasy.

Thoughts are great fiction writers.

I don’t know. I think I say association because it's the imagination of this body and especially of what the the face and eye movement might look like in the moment and That its an almost constant thought overlay. It feels so familiar and like "me".

Please look more at this:

How is 'familiar' experienced?
What exactly makes it familiar?
And what is the experience of 'me'?

In DE it does not because even the thought of this body is experienced. But It's just believed that the body is here looking and I am the vulnerable body.

Look closer at it's 'just' believed. This is a thought saying it this way to avoid scrutiny. How does belief 'just' happen?
Are you the vulnerable body?
Where in the body are you?

It's sensation in the body and the thought of a child version of Jose and a focusing or a 'holding onto' that sensation and image.

I'm not familiar with inner child work myself, but it came to me that perhaps it's a good time to see this child Jose and bring him in. Give him a hug. Ask him what's going on? What does he want?

Each time he comes up, perhaps invite him in for tea with the messenger friend.

It goes from the inner voice thought "I" and goes directly to sensation primarily in the face then chest and abdomen and an image of the facial expression and body overlaying the sensation.

Let's look at this again:

Could you really find a direct connection between a thought and sensations?

Please look carefully, and don't assume the right answer from my question. If you can't see it in DE, let me know.

This has me a bit stumped. It goes from I letting the thought character of "I" go. To then seeing that "I" is the character also. It's actually the same thought. The "I" and the character are the same. It goes round in circles. In reality one cant see the other. Thought cant see a thought so it's just one thought and then another thought repeating. It's a trick that's hard to see through. The "I" thought keeps reinventing itself to a point where there are just too many "I"'s. It feels like I'm on the cusp of seeing through it but it's hard to get another perspective.

When you discovered that Santa wasn't real, what did you do to let go of that illusion?

I think I'm starting to see a common thread here. I and imagined "I character" are the same.

Could it be that every thought is the same?

This brings up the question: Is the imagined character having the experience. No it (imagined) is also experienced. It seems so close to being seen. Maybe it just is and I'm expecting a big shift. It feels good looking. Seems funny because this is all leading back to your original questions.

Is there always a big shift when a belief is suddenly no longer believed in?

The more we look, the more these questions become internalized and automatic. Thoughts begin deconstructing themselves. That's also why I try to use similar questions.

[okjose]

Another way of doing it to spice things up is to see the fear as a messenger, and go "Hello friend, what news do you bring today? Why are you here?"

Become curious and invite it in for tea.

These have already been such powerful tools thank you!

That's unforgivable. We will have to end the inquiry here :--)

Haha, damn, well it was a good run I suppose.

How is 'familiar' experienced?

It seems hard to explain. Like it's not seen as a threat. When I look at this thought/image overlay of "myself" it's clearly seen now as a thought. But the familiarity of it is a feeling of safety. In other words this image is not a threat.
Interestingly, when done with an actual object I see in the room, the 'familiar' experience is a thought that tells a story about the object. Eg: If I look at the the takeaway bag from the night before, thought starts telling the story of where it came from and a whole back story. So familiar is a thought overlay on the DE.

So going back to the image/thought overlay of a "me" the familiarity is just a thought saying "I know what that is.."

What exactly makes it familiar?

Even scary or unsafe feelings can be familiar. So it must just be a thought saying that 'it' has been here before. Or "I know that".

And what is the experience of 'me'?

The experience of 'me' is a thought/image and a thought saying "I know that" or "I am that"

Look closer at it's 'just' believed. This is a thought saying it this way to avoid scrutiny. How does belief 'just' happen?

You right it's is a just thought of this body and immediate surroundings. And a thought saying "this is you". Again it takes focus away from the actual seeing of the object in the room. Like you temporarily go a bit blind when focus goes to the thought/image of 'what's happening'. I guess it's just like a safety mechanism. Maybe especially for me with social anxiety thoughts / what are other people are seeing.

Are you the vulnerable body?

I think there may be some belief there. The 'body' as image and sensation can be observed so logically I am not. But I think the 'me entity' idea is attached to the body.

Where in the body are you?

I can't answer this one. This brings the thought "what is 'you' ('me')?" If 'me' is a thought. The place it is imagined to be located is in the head. Head is experienced as sensation or more accurate the sensation and image are labelled 'Head'. A thought is not inside a sensation. Or I am not inside sensation.

Looking again. "I" keeps moving. If starting with the thought "I am the sensation in the middle of the head". When asked " well I am that then what sees this then?" another thought says "I do", when looked at what that is referring to it's the sensation of the face, when asked again "well then what observing this?" another thought answers "I am" and so the thought happens "well what just heard that then".. Like thought points to any sensation or thought and says "that's me". Then the thought appears of the possibility that maybe nothing is observing. Then the thought happens "is thought asking". So it gets to a point where it'll just thought appearing.

To sum up theres a back and forth between a thought saying "this is who I am" referring to the inner voice thought and another silent thought of the face and sensation. This doesn't seem to lead anywhere. It's just a repeating thought saying I am this and "this" keeps changing.

Sorry for spelling it all out here.

So looking back it is all thought. I am a thought? Or thought is just saying that?

I'm not familiar with inner child work myself, but it came to me that perhaps it's a good time to see this child Jose and bring him in. Give him a hug. Ask him what's going on? What does he want?

Yes it's interesting you say this as I did some inner child work recently with a that holistic therapist. I think he just wants to feel safe and seen.

Each time he comes up, perhaps invite him in for tea with the messenger friend.

Yes this is a great idea.

Could you really find a direct connection between a thought and sensations?

No it's a thought that says "the image is this the sensation". Sensation and thought are separate but it's actually quite hard to see them as separate. The mental image overlay on sensation is so close. It feels like im trying too isolate sensation from the image/thought.

When you discovered that Santa wasn't real, what did you do to let go of that illusion?

What do you mean he's not real?

Sorry couldn't resist. I don't actually remember that moment. But it would've been nothing surly. Or like "Oh ok". Maybe a bit of resistance to the idea and upset but nothing needed to be done to let go. Because there was nothing there to let go of.

Could it be that every thought is the same?

This is great, yes. At this point it seems clear that maybe the seeming mixture of sensation and 'me' thought make it seem like a different kind of thought. Maybe I need help to see sensation and thought as separate?

Is there always a big shift when a belief is suddenly no longer believed in?

No you're right :) not always. I'm happy with the idea of whatever now to be honest. I can see how misleading expectations can be.

[Bluejay]

The experience of 'me' is a thought/image and a thought saying "I know that" or "I am that"

And can a 'me' be found there?

But I think the 'me entity' idea is attached to the body.

Oh really? We have a parasite on our hands and the cure is direct experience. It doesn't like the light of attention.

What is the experience of attachment?

Where does the idea connect to the body (mental image)?

A thought is not inside a sensation. Or I am not inside sensation.

That's a good one. Nice observation :)

And the body is a mental image. Is there a real "I" inside a mental image, or anything real?

To sum up theres a back and forth between a thought saying "this is who I am" referring to the inner voice thought and another silent thought of the face and sensation. This doesn't seem to lead anywhere. It's just a repeating thought saying I am this and "this" keeps changing.

Sorry for spelling it all out here.

Keep spelling it out. It's good.

Yes, you got it. If you go to thought, the loop will never end.

So looking back it is all thought. I am a thought? Or thought is just saying that?

Yes and yes.

No it's a thought that says "the image is this the sensation". Sensation and thought are separate but it's actually quite hard to see them as separate. The mental image overlay on sensation is so close. It feels like im trying too isolate sensation from the image/thought.

It is difficult at first, but keep looking. It's similar to separating the "I" into the different senses.

What do you mean he's not real?

Sorry couldn't resist. I don't actually remember that moment. But it would've been nothing surly. Or like "Oh ok". Maybe a bit of resistance to the idea and upset but nothing needed to be done to let go. Because there was nothing there to let go of.

:-D

This is great, yes. At this point it seems clear that maybe the seeming mixture of sensation and 'me' thought make it seem like a different kind of thought. Maybe I need help to see sensation and thought as separate?

Let's start with this one:

Change Letters

Throughout the day, when a thought about "I" comes up, replace the letter (pick whatever letter you want).

"I want to have this" -> "O want to have this"

Can "O" want to have anything?

No.

How then could "I" want to have anything?

"I don't like that" -> "A don't like that"

Can "A" dislike anything?

No.

How come there is an idea that "I" can dislike anything?

Observe this throughout the day and let me know what you find :)

[okjose]

Hi Henri, I just wanted to check something with you that's being going round in my head since I read it.

When I asked "I am a thought? Or thought is just saying that?" Your answer "Yes and yes." shocked me a little bit. (which I think is a good thing)
It's something I'd thought about asking before but didn't feel brave enough too until now.

I don't know if this makes sense to you but for me "I am a thought" compared to " 'I' is a thought". Feels very different.

It feels a bit more radical and sort of like cuts to the chase and creates a slight shift in perspective. But also I don't know if it's a true statement.

Earlier today after reading your reply I experimented and said "If I am a thought then my whole history is a thought" There was slight resistance (fear) at first then I relaxed into it (thanks inner 2 year old) and I started to feel lighter after that thought. Like I could see maybe what it was like to drop the whole Jose and his history and personalty notion (that feel a bit weird to say).
I was at work and haven't had a good opportunity to write to you and have been thinking about it all for a while so probably getting a bit bogged down with thought at this point.

I just want to check I wasn't misunderstanding anything and if this is a good way to go? I seem to want to just repeat "I am a thought" and see how the body reacts and look into the implications of what that would mean.

I will continue with the last questions but just felt eager to get this out there first.

[Bluejay]

I don't know if this makes sense to you but for me "I am a thought" compared to " 'I' is a thought". Feels very different.

It feels a bit more radical and sort of like cuts to the chase and creates a slight shift in perspective. But also I don't know if it's a true statement.

It's all a thought. Inside/outside. Distance. Me. History. Future. Desire/aversion. Through thoughts a narrative is created and taken to be real.

Does this answer your question?

Ask more brave questions!

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHyQ_afCd6M