Going beyond the story of me

[MichaelHen]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
It seems pretty clear that the ME is largely a story built up meticulously through conditioning by upbringing, culture, education etc. It seems absolutely real and is reenforced by continuous societal and interpersonal messaging and "programming" ... however, it also seems fairly clear that this story is very superficial ..

What are you looking for at LU?
I often have a clear sense that I know very little of myself beyond the story described above which seems a pretty random and superficial affair upon deeper scrutiny ... there is something beyond the story and my search so far has pointed me towards awareness and a container of all experiences as a deeper self ... this however, remains largely an intellectual understanding and I am interested in exchanges with someone who could help bring greater clarity.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would try to keep a very open mind since it has become clear to me already that any preconceptions and prior "insights" and understandings leads to further intellectualization rather than genuine clarity and seeing ... so a genuine exploration through guidance.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Quite extensive over many years and with many different schools and approaches.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Bluejay]

Hi Michael,

I'm Henri.

Welcome to the forum. I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like?

If yes, then we can start...

If you haven't already, please read the disclaimer here: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... isclaimer/

And then have a look at what Liberation Unleashed is not in the FAQ: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some guidelines (you may already be familiar with most of this, but just in case):

1. Post at least once every 24 to 48 hours. I'm not strict about this, but I would prefer it if you posted regularly. If you can't, please let me know.

2. Be 100% honest. There is no judgment here. No answer or question is silly or stupid. Your progress is key.

3. This process is based on direct experience, which means sensation, smell, taste, sight, sound, observed thoughts, and so on. There is no need to rely too much on the mind for answers, so long philosophical and analytical answers are best avoided.

4. Pause any other teachings, rituals, books, and practices you are currently involved in. It is best to put all your effort into this inquiry for as long as it lasts. A meditation practice is fine, but anything else can be a distraction.

5. Technology can be problematic. I recommend you type your answers in a text editor like MS Word or Google Docs, and then copy and paste them into this thread. This way you avoid losing your answer if there's a technical glitch.

6. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to answer each question individually. Here are instructions on how to use the quote function if it is not already clear: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And to start, I'd like to know your expectations. You don't have to use direct experience for this. Just share what comes to mind:

1. How will life change?
2. How will you change?
3. What will be different?
4. What is missing?

Enjoy! :)

[MichaelHen]

Dear Henri - thank you very much for offering to be my guide … it is greatly appreciated. There shouldn’t be any problem for me to respond quickly although I do move around quite a bit … however this enquiry is a high priority for me.

1. How will life change?
I presume that life will remain the same in terms of day to day events but that my perception of these events may change.

2. How will you change?
I imagine more space and openness, less stickiness …

3. What will be different?
Apart from the above imaginings, I don’t really know.

4. What is missing?
I often feel there could be more spontaneity and love in my life.

[Bluejay]

Hi Michael,

All right. These expectations seem reasonable. Some hidden ones may pop up later but we'll deal with them if/when they appear.

One thing: Could you use quotes to answer my questions?

Using the quotes function will make things much easier to follow when our posts become larger.

Simply quote the question you are answering, like this:

There shouldn’t be any problem for me to respond quickly although I do move around quite a bit … however this enquiry is a high priority for me.

This sounds good to me!

Here's the first pointer to make sure we're on the same page. You may find the next few exercises easy. If that's the case, just look with fresh eyes and see it as a warm-up :)

Socks Exercise

There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers), and seeing (looking in direct experience).

For example: If I ask you what color your socks are, you can answer in two ways:

- You can think and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

- Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are.

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

[MichaelHen]

Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

All seem clear, with the exception of the last one i.e. thoughts. It seems to me that thoughts and their content is one and the same thing? What is experienced in a thought if not its content? Are you referring to the underlying awareness that registers all thoughts whatever their content?

[Bluejay]

All seem clear, with the exception of the last one i.e. thoughts. It seems to me that thoughts and their content is one and the same thing? What is experienced in a thought if not its content? Are you referring to the underlying awareness that registers all thoughts whatever their content?

Thoughts arising is when you are just aware that a thought is forming, but you don't know its content. You could say this is a sensation. Does that make sense?

[MichaelHen]

Thoughts arising is when you are just aware that a thought is forming, but you don't know its content. You could say this is a sensation. Does that make sense?

After my last response, I started being unsure about even the other senses i.e. for example smelling ... normally my experience includes a labelling of the smell i.e. smell of food, smell of soap etc. Your response seems to point to the early arising of the experience of the sense in question. I am not sure that I am aware of any experience until a label is part of or "attached" to the experience ... is a sensation not "started" by an external stimulus i.e. the cooking of food, soap etc.?

[Bluejay]

No need to complicate this too much. It's only with Thought Arising that there's a distinction between the arising of it and the content.

Here's an exercise that might help clarify:

Labeling Daily Activities

Try this exercise as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order on each line. Exactly.

[MichaelHen]

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order on each line. Exactly.

Seeing a box = color/shape
listening to music = hearing
thinking about this assignment = thought
the noise of the ceiling fan = hearing
looking out of the window = light and colors
voices in the distance = hearing
my bum on the chair = feeling
buzz in the body = feeling
fingers on keys = feeling
slight headache = feeling
drinking water = feeling/tasting
picture on the wall = colors/shape
bird chirping outside = hearing
thought about music playing = thought
heart beat = feeling
airplane overhead = hearing

[Bluejay]

Thanks Michael!

Seeing a box = color/shape

Is shape direct experience?

the noise of the ceiling fan = hearing

Notice that the exercise used the word sound instead of hearing. When you listen to something, see if something changes when you focus on hearing vs. sound. Do you notice anything?

buzz in the body = feeling

Same here. Any difference between feeling and sensation?

You did good work on this. The above questions are mostly to make sure we're clear. Precision is essential :)

[MichaelHen]

Precision is essential :)

Thank you for the clarification Henri. I see what you mean ... there is an element of interpretation in "hearing", "feeling" and "shape" - it is not the raw sensation. Very useful.

[Bluejay]

Thank you for the clarification Henri. I see what you mean ... there is an element of interpretation in "hearing", "feeling" and "shape" - it is not the raw sensation. Very useful.

Yes. Excellent that you noticed that.

Here's the next one building on all this:

Mind Labeling

Here is an exercise which examines how the mind labels experience. This takes about 20 minutes and you will need pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 2 x 10 minute parts. For each 10 minute part pay attention to any bodily sensation (is there any tightening, or any relaxing?)

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

- I am sitting on a chair
- I am hearing a clock ticking
- I am looking at a computer screen
- I am feeling hungry

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the second ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”.

Describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

- Sitting on a chair
- Typing
- Breathing
- Blinking
- Hearing the clock
- Hunger

(Watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labeled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Enjoy! :)

[MichaelHen]

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The second one seems more crisp and accurate, more objective, and in that way truer than the first one. I had the sense that the “I” is superfluous except for adding some unnecessary “weight”.

2. What is here without labels?

Without labels there seem to be just sensations.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

The labels seem to "complicate" the sensations and add emotional dimensions and concepts. But I can also sense a strong fascination with the labels and their stories, somehow believing that the labels add value to the raw sensation.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

There was a sense of greater calmness and detachment in the second round.

[Bluejay]

Okay, good! :)

There was a sense of greater calmness and detachment in the second round.

Isn't it interesting that thoughts say the second round is more detached when in fact it's more right here, right now? Adding the 'I' and other labels detaches from the actual experiences because it adds something between 'you' and 'this'. Does that make sense?

Let's do this next:

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what do they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts about something, because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought about ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk about can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

- Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
- Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Enjoy and let me know what you find out :)

[MichaelHen]

What about the content of thoughts, what do they describe?.

I find your pointer that the content of thought is actually just more thoughts very helpful.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought about ‘apple’?

It now seems quite clear that there is no apple as a direct sensation.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No. …. It seems that “Apple” is a word/label which refers to a bundle of sensations but not the sensations themselves.