Fetter work in progres

[Luchana]

Hi Flavius,

No. Some fixed conditioned thoughts are activated and taken as truth and then triger other thoughts.

Let's look here at the thoughts and more precisely thoughts about "me"

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened) get it?

Let me know how you go and what you notice.

Decision making. The fact that a decision must be made after discerning and then to act "correctly".

We will come back here athow decision is really happening later.

Sending love,
Luchana

[Shikantaza77]

Hi Luchana!

It seems like a parity is going on. One simple thout and one "me" related.

Let's look here at the thoughts and more precisely thoughts about "me"

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened) get it?

Let me know how you go and what you notice.

The thoughts are even in score.

I did 2 rounds. First round 5 minutes second round 15 minutes.

First round ended with 3 thouts that included a "me" regarding a "me" and 3 about someting else.

Second round is 18 about a "me" and 19 about something else.

It seems like every time a thought about something exterior apears the next one tries to make it about "self".
Example : 1 Bees look a little fat. 2. I don't have that form or look that fat as a bee. And so on, so forth


Thank you 🙏

[Luchana]

Hi Flavius,

It seems like a parity is going on. One simple thout and one "me" related.

you did a very good looking with the exercise.

Example : 1 Bees look a little fat. 2. I don't have that form or look that fat as a bee. And so on, so forth

Lovely observation!


Could you share one or two more examples what were the "other" thoughts?


Sending love,
Luchana

ps. We are having a close meeting today, 7 pm EEST, if you feel an impulse to join message me to provide details.


Sending love,
Luchana

[Shikantaza77]

Hi Luchana! 👋

Could you share one or two more examples what were the "other" thoughts?

I did another session today (about 20 minutes)after we spoke and I noted some of the thoughts in the category "other".

You will probably have a good laugh 😅

My neighbour should cerish his wife more just for how good she cares for the kids. Maybe he does, who knows.

This red of this rose 🌹 looks absolutely breathtaking.

Flees are incocent. They just jump on cats to survive.

Lab grown meet has been around for years.

Mom doesn't known a thing about footbal.

That guy is lonely.

That girl seems like an introvert.

Cats are so present all the time.

Thank you 🙏

[Shikantaza77]

Hei Luchana!

I forgot to mention that I made some observations also.

It seems like no thought can exist about something if it doesn't have un underlying belif that "someone" is listening. Looked even closer thought semms to speak to itself, basically.

[Luchana]

Hi Flavius,
sorry for delay, these days are flying fast...

Thank you for the examples
Let's look closer few of them

My neighbour should cerish his wife more just for how good she cares for the kids. Maybe he does, who knows.

According to ME the neibour should cherish his wife more.

This red of this rose 🌹 looks absolutely breathtaking.

This rose is taking MY breath .

Lab grown meat has been around for years.

Conclusion/opinion (mine) about something ...

You see when looking the thoughts closely like that it turns out that the other seemingly other thoughts are also about me, just in a hidden way.
Actually ALL thought refer back to a self, me. Even those who seem are not about me.

How does it feel to see that?

It seems like no thought can exist about something if it doesn't have un underlying belif that "someone" is listening. Looked even closer thought semms to speak to itself, basically.

Great!
If you ask
"HEY, whom do you speaking to?" what kind of answer comes?

Sending love,
Luchana

[Shikantaza77]

Hei Luchana! 👋

If you ask
"HEY, whom do you speaking to?" what kind of answer comes?

The automatic thought-answer is "me".but the split second it arises I can feel it's automatism. The mind works in that way out of habbit and even when asked something one must formulate an ideea as a "me" and speek it through regular language because otherwise all awakened people supposed to speak like radical neo-advaita guides (like Tony Parsons or our friend from the meeting I was part of last week).

The issue here is a qeuestion of why? Why after clearly seeing through the "I" and living in bliss and whitnising how sensation and thoughts appear with no effort at all, for allmost a month, this MEing seems to come back and try to take hold of everything. It's like it regreuped it's army of thoughts and came back for a war(it's a methafor).

The inquiry helps to re-see that there's no one there like the first time it happened and it brings peace for the rest of the day, but how long is this going to happen ?

Thank you 🙏
Flavius

[Luchana]

Hi Flavius,

The automatic thought-answer is "me".but the split second it arises I can feel it's automatism. The mind works in that way out of habbit and even when asked something one must formulate an ideea as a "me" and speek it through regular language because otherwise all awakened people supposed to speak like radical neo-advaita guides (like Tony Parsons or our friend from the meeting I was part of last week).

Oh, what a nice observation :-)
Let's look together:

Why there should be one type of speaking?
What is suggesting that?
The free expressing comes with the direct experience and each expression has its own flavour.

Can you see that?

The issue here is a qeuestion of why? Why after clearly seeing through the "I" and living in bliss and whitnising how sensation and thoughts appear with no effort at all, for allmost a month, this MEing seems to come back and try to take hold of everything. It's like it regreuped it's army of thoughts and came back for a war(it's a methafor).

I totally feel what you are saying. The moment you are describing was a state and no state stays forever, they are all subject to change inevitably.
But this which we are looking here is not a state. It is just a simple look at how reality is.
So let's look together againL

How ME which is supposedly coming back is experienced right now in this very moment?
What is EXACTLY which is coming and going?

Look very closely.

Sending love,
Luchana

[Shikantaza77]

Hello Luchana! 👋

So, I want to answer to a part of your reply because something gets really trigering(not intense,not even mild but still present and definitely there).

Why there should be one type of speaking?

It shouldn't be actually and what I wanted to underline was the fact that you start working with me from the assumption that not even the first fetter fell of. And I have the strong feeling that you are misjudgeing my state, actually I have no doubt about that.

Actually what I dicoverd since I began working with you was that the first fetter came of but...there still was doubt in place, rites and rituals allso. It seems that not to all people the first 3 fetters falls all at once. I am one of them. Pfff what a bummer for the spiritual ego.

With your help the second fetter came of regarding wether this is or not an awakening of the forst fetter or not, am I in the mind or not, should I do this or that to clear this or not. You have been a tremendous help, and I thank you for what you did for me.

The moment you are describing was a state and no state stays forever, they are all subject to change inevitably

This is also related to my above answer
No it wasn't. And actually you helped me discern that it wasn't beyond all dout.

I remember a story that I saw in a podcast with Francis Lucille and it's a zen story about a master and a student who thought he had story/kensho. The master told him he didn't and sent him back to practice zazen more firece. After a month he came back and told the master "Master, master, I relly think that that was satori/kensho " and the master replyed "No, that wasn't satori/kensho; go meditate even more fiercely". And the student listened to his master and came a month after that after intensly meditating. "Master, Master, I think that really really was satori/kensho" And the master replyed like before " No, no it wasn't, go back again". The the student replyed : You know something, master?! How about you keep your opinion about my experience and I keep my satori/kensho as it is?!" And then the master replyed "Ahaaaa, so it really was satori then! You wold have never relly known if I told you what it was. You had to really see it for yourself over and over again beyond any doubt ".

Another dialog seen by me with Adyashanty was about exacly this. How do I dicern between an experience and an awakening (first fetter, in that context). And the explanation is that once it is seen, something never ever goes back fully as it was before. And that it's true for me also.

Since I've been working with you I've questions this and looked at it every day for an hour two maybe three (cumulated time per day). I allways take it from your first questions and look as it's the first time with doubt charged at maximum never believing nothing of what my mind and body can present. And each and every time after 20 minutes and more it's seen clarly, beyond any doubt that what you call just a state it's always with me since January. It's like the speaker volume of a sound sistem : sometimes it's at 5% far, far in the bacground, sometimes is 10% percent sometimes is 60% volume. It seems to be related to the amount of thought going on, this empty/full Presence of direct experience. But never, never ever, ever totaly gone not even when it happens to be lost in the train of thought there is something there that never was there 'till January and never ever left, no matter the intensity so to speak.

I have had experinces before.Many! I know from personal experince when a state is achieved no matter how blissful (and I had some totaly mind blowing states through prayer and meditation) when they are gone, there nothing more then a 30 minutes to one or two hours of a mild after efect and then...spufff totaly gone like nothing happend, ever. This is not the case. Something permanently changed and never ever left me till this day and minute that we are speaking.

It's like the knowing that if you as a human being step outside the edge of a 30 floor building you wil die with a certainty of 100%. This is how certain I am about this not being just a state but a 100% shift. Am I sure of it as I am sure of deth. Abosluly beiond every shred of dout. And it's because of your work with me that clarified this.


I will resume the other questions later in the day

Thank you very much!l for your work so far 🙏

[Shikantaza77]

Hei Luchana! 👋

I came back with an answer for the last questions.

How ME which is supposedly coming back is experienced right now in this very moment?

I wold not describe it as a me to be very honest but as a habitual dream general sensation of fog or spider webs in the eyes, continuous train of thought 🚂 💭🤔 with a kind of rithmic ocurence, sequence and algorithm. Like a song which has a begining, brige, long chorus and sometimes a moment of interlude of direct experince happens and breakers the unconscious train of thought.

These days the train though seems more like an interlude to direct experience witch also became habitual.

The most "problematic" feature of this train of thought or mind song is that it always wants something to be expresed, something to be aligned in a certain way, something to be recognised or acknowledged, something to orient to. If it's either stability, pleasure, acknowledgement, fear of lack it dosent matter. It allways wants something and begins to "offer" solutions and arguments in the form of thought for what is felt in the body or in what is automatically interpreted from exterior world.

What is EXACTLY which is coming and going?

Sensations combined thouth in the form of speech with daydreaming mostly. Even when speaking to someone face to face this still happens( not as often as 5 months ago when I was 70% absent from a conversation)
If I look even closer is just aprently chaotic and sensation and thought.

Loseing in thought it what comes and goes.

Thank you 🙏

[Luchana]

Hi Flavius.

thank you for your honest replies, so appreciate that.

So, I want to answer to a part of your reply because something gets really trigering(not intense,not even mild but still present and definitely there).

This is so good. I mean when we got triggered this is an invitation to look deeper.

It shouldn't be actually and what I wanted to underline was the fact that you start working with me from the assumption that not even the first fetter fell of. And I have the strong feeling that you are misjudgeing my state, actually I have no doubt about that.

I can feel your concern and there is no judgment here whatsoever. And I am not questioning the state in which you are in.
States can be amazing, inspiring, trilling and so pleasant. But what we are looking here is not a state.
This is just a simple fact that there is no you, Flavius in any shape or form anywhere to be found at experience. There is only an experience happening. There is no one IN the experience.

How does sound?
Is there a big fat YES? :-)

It's like the knowing that if you as a human being step outside the edge of a 30 floor building you wil die with a certainty of 100%. This is how certain I am about this not being just a state but a 100% shift. Am I sure of it as I am sure of deth. Abosluly beiond every shred of dout. And it's because of your work with me that clarified this.

Lovely!

Can you say something more about that shift?

How the shift itself felt?

What changes and what not in the dally life experience?
What are you responsible for?
What makes things happen?
How does it work?


Sending love,
Luchana

[Shikantaza77]

Hi Luchana! 👋

This is just a simple fact that there is no you, Flavius in any shape or form anywhere to be found at experience. There is only an experience happening. There is no one IN the experience.

This sound more as an 8th fetter liberation. Am I right?
A simple yes or no will suffice.
To my understanding if that is a yes (8th/10th on the fetter model) then it is a big fat YES, Luchana!😁

Can you say something more about that shift?

How the shift itself felt?

Yes. I'll start with how it happend. In the previous 4 months before this I did nothing else besides meditation, walking meditation, eating and sleeping mostly. It became everything I wanted. In my past I had many periods like this with experiences but never had a shift.

At one point being really frustrated that this first shift doesn't happen to me I thought that it was time to put this aside and go on with my life as before. As I was walking through the forest and thinking that this isn't for me and at least I tried my very best at it, I will now go home coock something good and serch for a new job. Life is beautiful and I was thankful for the break I had in this period of my life. in that exact moment I felt as I was a glass bottle and the bottom of it just broke and all the liquid fell of it was clearly seen right then and there that all of this "me" who was seeking was just an assumption simulaniosly with the immediate calming of the seeking. Not only that the "me" of doing things was an assumption regarding seeking but also it could be allso seen how that asumption workd in every aspect of "my" life, all the past moments came into mind all at once (it felt that way) about this silly imperceptibly subtle asumption. Decideing things, keeping gruges, thinking things. "I was seeing" this from a perspective of no one how thought and feeling was forming in every aspect imaginable of "my" life. It was amazing. How a very little itsy bitsy asumption was a huge difference in what life is entirely. 😲😲😲😲😲😲😲😲😲
In the month to come I was in this blissful awe like a kid having a new amazing toy. Seeing a live show of everything unbinding moment by moment in every aspect or situation of life. Then the mind became stormy again day by day filling this open counciosness. The perspective never ever fully left even if now it gets stormy and clouded sometimes, bet never ever fully as it was before. It can't be unseen, ever. Sometimes it's like I'm in a foot in limitless conciosness and another in thought at the same time. Sometimes it's like 20% in conciosness and 80% in thought but never ever fully unaware of what's happening. I hope you get this methphores and understand that it is how I comunicate.

What changes and what not in the dally life experience?

Binding in thought and reaction happens, that's what is changing.
That fluffy peace in the background never ever disappeared, never goes away even if somethimes is way in the background.

What are you responsible for?

I can't say that there is someone responsible for anything. Everything is automatic when looked at closely.

What makes things happen?

How does it work?

Automatic habitual assumption that though is right or wrong, learned fixed asumption that something should be in a way or another. When is looked at.


This is the best I can do, for now!🙏

Thank you again very much, Luchana

[Luchana]

Hi Flavios,

This sound more as an 8th fetter liberation. Am I right?
A simple yes or no will suffice.
To my understanding if that is a yes (8th/10th on the fetter model) then it is a big fat YES, Luchana!😁

Mmm, to be honest I don't know.

Notice - is there an expectation that once the so called 10 fetters are seen trough or collapse - there will be ever lasting peach and happiness only?

At one point being really frustrated that this first shift doesn't happen to me I thought that it was time to put this aside and go on with my life as before. As I was walking through the forest and thinking that this isn't for me and at least I tried my very best at it, I will now go home coock something good and serch for a new job. Life is beautiful and I was thankful for the break I had in this period of my life. in that exact moment I felt as I was a glass bottle and the bottom of it just broke and all the liquid fell of it was clearly seen right then and there that all of this "me" who was seeking was just an assumption simulaniosly with the immediate calming of the seeking. Not only that the "me" of doing things was an assumption regarding seeking but also it could be allso seen how that asumption workd in every aspect of "my" life, all the past moments came into mind all at once (it felt that way) about this silly imperceptibly subtle asumption. Decideing things, keeping gruges, thinking things. "I was seeing" this from a perspective of no one how thought and feeling was forming in every aspect imaginable of "my" life. It was amazing. How a very little itsy bitsy asumption was a huge difference in what life is entirely. 😲😲😲😲😲😲😲😲😲

Beautiful. Can you say with a big fat yes that the illusion of a separate self is seen trough?

In the month to come I was in this blissful awe like a kid having a new amazing toy. Seeing a live show of everything unbinding moment by moment in every aspect or situation of life. Then the mind became stormy again day by day filling this open counciosness. The perspective never ever fully left even if now it gets stormy and clouded sometimes, bet never ever fully as it was before. It can't be unseen, ever. Sometimes it's like I'm in a foot in limitless conciosness and another in thought at the same time. Sometimes it's like 20% in conciosness and 80% in thought but never ever fully unaware of what's happening. I hope you get this methphores and understand that it is how I comunicate.

This is common, very common.

Let's look here:

How that which can be in consciousness sometimes and sometimes in thought is experienced EXACTLY?
Is there something REAL which can do the action of flip flopping?

At this moment of the process of LU I can suggest to look curiously how daily life unfolds for few days or week and than I can send you the final questions. These questions are not an exam, your answer will help the other fellow guides to see If I missed something. Than you can explore some other areas here in the forum or start guiding ...
life continues as always..it is just not MY life anymore :-)

There is a constant deepening and unfolding.

Let me know how this sound?

Sending love,
Luchana

[Shikantaza77]

Hi Luchana 👋

I took your advice and let life unfold for a few days without constant inquiry into experience.

How that which can be in consciousness sometimes and sometimes in thought is experienced EXACTLY?
Is there something REAL which can do the action of flip flopping?

I'm afraid that I don't have an answer to the question exept... Awerness of awerness.

There's nothing that can do the action of flipping any switch of bein in conciosness or caught in thought but it seems to be awerness of all VS identification with thought and belief. It's like you start a movie on your tv and at some point your hole attention goes so deep in there that you forget you are in a room watching a movie and you feel like you are a side character in the movie that you are watching taking the movie on tv as reality and not even being councios that you are "doing" that.

Is there possible to be awere of everything all the time?

There are hundreds of this micro-movies of a minute or two, happening daily. When abiding in counciousness is sucked in a thought (but not fully -something is still abiding in conciosness in tha background from a standpoint, so to speak). I don't know if it's habitual, or fixed subconcios belif or the fear of lack of orientation and control or fear of suffering, or fear of non existing or fear of lack...or all of the above. It's not even important any more. You tell me...😅😅

Thank you very much Luchana 🫶
I wish you a very peaceful day🧘‍♀️🧘

[Luchana]

Hi Flavius.

you did a good looking.

I'm afraid that I don't have an answer to the question exept... Awerness of awerness.

It is ok :-)

Can you look here:

What is awareness when you look directly right here, right now?

How awareness is experienced exactly?

Is there something as a thing called awareness ?

or awareness is a just a word, a label we use.

There are hundreds of this micro-movies of a minute or two, happening daily. When abiding in counciousness is sucked in a thought (but not fully -something is still abiding in conciosness in tha background from a standpoint, so to speak). I don't know if it's habitual, or fixed subconcios belif or the fear of lack of orientation and control or fear of suffering, or fear of non existing or fear of lack...or all of the above. It's not even important any more. You tell me...😅😅

mmm, Can you say something more about this fear?

What images fear brings?

What is fear protecting?

What may happen?

Take a closer look with curiosity and compassion.

Sending love,
Luchana