Seeking a guide please

[mark43]

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

The only connection between the felt sensations and the images in the mirror or via thought. I see this.

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

Yes, the only way the label gets attached to what I see is via thought.

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

Only thoughts/mental images.

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

Just thoughts.

9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

I suppose I cannot say these sensations are located in space.

Okay, so yes, what I think I am can not really be confirmed by my present experience. But, why are the sensations experienced when the body is touched or moves? I see there's a jump there to the belief that it's because there is an I inside the body, but I feel like I need to see somehow that these beliefs and thoughts are false.

Thanks

[filtah]

Good work Mark :)

Okay, so yes, what I think I am can not really be confirmed by my present experience.

Right. You are not what you ‘think' you are. Can you see this?
Consider this - am I really what you ‘think' I am?
It's all just mental images arising - they don't point to anything real, just more thoughts.

But, why are the sensations experienced when the body is touched or moves? I see there's a jump there to the belief that it's because there is an I inside the body, but I feel like I need to see somehow that these beliefs and thoughts are false.

When you ask ‘why’, you are looking to the mind for the answer.
Your mind can only give you more thought, and the answer is not a thought.
It's what you have been doing all your life, and it wont satisfy.
This is not about knowing, or figuring anything out.

The freedom is in the looking.
If you are believing a lie, you will feel it in the body.
Try this exercise to see if you can find this in your experience:

Truth Lie Pointer

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.


We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" or “anxious” is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

[mark43]

What is found?

A heavy feeling in my chest and stomach that feels as though it’s pushing down and inwards. It also feels like a tensing or contracting. It’s often (if not almost always) felt.

Do you see that?

Yes, definitely. Interpretations attach value.

[mark43]

Hi Phil.

I think I am starting to understand more what is meant on this website by the notion that “there is no you”.

If I am not mistaken, when you say there is nobody there, you mean that there is no self outside of thought, correct? If so, I think I’m starting to see that fairly clearly.

That being said, is it wrong or a mistake to feel an identity even when not in thought? Ie - when I’m meditating with a clear open mind, is it wrong to think that there is a me in that situation?

What was meant by the body pointer exercise? It seemed as though it was pointing to the idea that there is nobody experiencing the sensations of the body. Is it wrong to feel that I am experiencing the sensations? If it is wrong, is it that the sensations of the body are just experienced (like you had me try to see during the first activity you had me do)?

Sorry if I’m asking too many questions. I’m a bit frustrated I’m not seeing what you’re trying to point me towards.

[filtah]

Hi Mark

A heavy feeling in my chest and stomach that feels as though it’s pushing down and inwards. It also feels like a tensing or contracting. It’s often (if not almost always) felt.

Great, I’m glad you have noticed that.
This is your body’s response to believing a lie. This is a body ‘No’ experience.
Best thing to do is pay attention to this, just the sensation.
Notice also any kind of rejection to this sensation, something along the lines of ’this shouldn’t be here'.
it 'I don't want this sensation’, basically a ‘No’ to what is. It is unpleasant, I get that, but the rejection comes on top of that.
How do you know this sensation should not be here right now? A question like that can loosen any belief about why it should not be here.
The freedom comes from allowing it to be here, exactly as it is, you don't have to understand it at all.

If I am not mistaken, when you say there is nobody there, you mean that there is no self outside of thought, correct? If so, I think I’m starting to see that fairly clearly.

Yes, the self IS the thought. It's appearance is real, its undeniably part of experience, but it is only an appearance, it doesn't refer to anything. A belief implies that it is real.
This is what is never questioned. We question this by pointing and looking in your actual experience, to see if it can be found.

That being said, is it wrong or a mistake to feel an identity even when not in thought? Ie - when I’m meditating with a clear open mind, is it wrong to think that there is a me in that situation?

There is nothing wrong or right about thinking anything at all, it just happens by itself. If a thought arises about 'being a me’ see that it is just a thought.

What was meant by the body pointer exercise? It seemed as though it was pointing to the idea that there is nobody experiencing the sensations of the body.

Yes! it is not an idea though! There really isn’t anybody experiencing the sensations.
You have to seriously consider if this really could be true. Have you ever been able to find anything, except sensation, and thoughts about it?
Look closely, don’t believe what I say, look and see, like you did with the coloured socks exercise.

I’m a bit frustrated I’m not seeing what you’re trying to point me towards.

I know exactly how you feel. It can be frustrating. This comes from trying to understand it. It doesn't make sense. Try and relax into it, let go of trying to figure this out.
It will come by itself, relax and keep looking, you are doing great :)


Here’s your next pointer.
Take your time with this one.
It really helps to be relaxed when doing this, but also repeat it as many times as you can, it gets clearer when you keep looking.

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what ​ chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

[filtah]

Hi Mark,
How's it going?

Just checking in with you.
It's important to keep the momentum with this process.
Just let me know if you need more time with this exercise.

I'm here if you have any questions.

[mark43]

Hi Phil,

I actually wrote a big reply last night, clicked submit, and then it stalled. I then reloaded and lost the reply. Got frustrated and left it. I have been slow to reply to this one because I'm not really sure about my answers. I'm not really finding that I can reply to any of your questions in the affirmative. Not sure if I've followed the instructions incorrectly or don't understand.

How is the movement controlled?

I cannot tell by looking or observing experience.

Does a thought control it?

Not that I can decipher.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

Not that I can tell.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

I cannot observe a decision being made anywhere.

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

There is none. Am I doing this wrong?

Who or what ​ chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

I do not know. I must be doing this wrong.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No I cannot.

It seem to me that "I" am not controlling my hand. Ie - whatever is observing my hand turn over is not the doer or controller. This is interesting, but to me, this sort of reinforces the belief that I exist as while this suggests I am not the thing controlling the movement, I am whatever is able to observe this.

Thanks

[filtah]

Hi Mark.
You have replied with perfect answers!
You are seeing this really clearly, but seems like you have doubtful thoughts coming in after telling you ‘i’m doing this wrong’.
I see this as good progress, even though it probably doesn't feel like it for you.
It doesn't make sense to the mind, so doubt is very normal.

How would you feel if you didn’t believe the thought ‘I must be doing this wrong’?
I don't mean you should affirm the opposite “I'm doing this right”, but to not buy into that thought at all.
What if it was a lie?

whatever is observing my hand turn over is not the doer or controller

Right - let that sink in a bit. this insight is more profound than you realise.
How does it feel to see this?

this sort of reinforces the belief that I exist as while this suggests I am not the thing controlling the movement, I am whatever is able to observe this.

Does there really have to be someone/thing there to do the observing?

Observing / seeing is happening, this is undeniably the case. It's self evident and doesn't require thinking about to verify its true. The actual seeing is the verification.
(Remember coloured socks?)

This 'I am ...’ that comes before the seeing is not actually coming before the seeing - it comes AFTER. It's a thought that claims the seeing as an identity, or an owner of this seeing.
Does the observing have an identity, can it?
Can this I be found in experience? is it separate from the actual seeing? Only a thought will say so, and off you go into a story...

It's so very simple, that is gets completely overlooked.
You just have to look, you can't do anything to make it happen, just relax and look in direct experience and don't listen to what the thoughts are saying.

[mark43]

So you're saying that actions are happening by themselves, but who or what is seeing them happen? This duality still seems undeniable to me.

[mark43]

Please excuse the quote formatting. I don't seem to be able to edit any of my posts after I submit them.

[mark43]

I am not the doer or controller of my actions, but I am also not the observer of my actions. There is no observer. Observing is just happening. Thoughts that proceed the observation attach identity to the observation.

Interesting. I will look at this. What feels wrong to me is the observer part. I get what you’re saying but how can I see that there’s nobody home watching it all?

[mark43]

I’m so frustrated Phil. I’ve looked so much and so long and just don’t see it.

What you’ve so far tried to point out to me is that thoughts don’t necessarily reflect reality. Yes, I get that. But thoughts usually do reflect reality.

If an elephant has a thought that they are an elephant, this doesn’t mean that they are not an elephant. They are an elephant and this condition doesn’t change whether it or anything has a thought about it.

I don’t exist because “I” only exists in thought? But it doesn’t though. I’m still around when I have no thoughts. Ie - the whatever that is experiencing reality is still around whether I have thoughts or not.

If I don’t exist, then who or what believes I do?

I’m sorry. This doesn’t seem to be going like any of those exchanges in Gateless Gatecrashers. Maybe I need to go live in a monastery for 20 years lol?

[filtah]

Hi Mark. I understand this frustrating.
I expect you have been seeking this for a long time, but to put this into perspective a bit,
you have only been working on at LU for about a month, so it's not a long time relatively..
This is a process, it takes some time, allow it to unfold. Frustration is OK - its part of the process, it will come to an end, like everything else, it will pass by itself.

But let's look at this frustration. How does it feel? It's probably an uncomfortable sensation somewhere which has been labeled '’Frustration’. look at the sensation, welcome it, ignore the story.
See if this helps.

If an elephant has a thought that they are an elephant, this doesn’t mean that they are not an elephant

Lets leave the elephants out of this! You are not an elephant, and any thoughts about them are just thoughts, stories.

whatever that is experiencing reality is still around whether I have thoughts or not

The experience of reality is undeniable - its self evident. seeing IS happening.
I’m just pointing to your assumption that this is YOU seeing.

whatever is observing my hand turn over is not the doer or controller

Right - let that sink in a bit. this insight is more profound than you realise.
How does it feel to see this?

Go back an and check what sensations are experienced in the gut / chest when you notice this.
Let me know what is found.

What feels wrong to me is the observer part. I get what you’re saying but how can I see that there’s nobody home watching it all?

You look and see - there is nothing there. Can you find any watcher, or just watching? Does there have to be a watcher or is that just an assumption you have?
It may seem logical to believe that, but it's something you have learned - it may not be true.

In witnessing this, it's easy to believe a thought that says, 'i'm not doing this, so i must be the one watching all of all this', or I am awareness.
If you believe “I am watching it all", you really believe you are the mind, because that belief is dependant on a thought.

In reality there is just this watching. It's a complete mystery as to why this is happening. You will never know why this is happening. you will never be able to find an answer to who or what is seeing this all happen. This process is not about finding answers to these questions. It’s about letting go of the need to know. This need to understand gets in the way of the seeing.

What you are looking for IS the looking. It's the only thing actually here right now. You can’t miss it, it's not hidden in any way, there is just a seeking for something else. That something else doesn't exist - its just an idea or a thought. You can see this. Its so simple and obvious, its just this! You don't have to understand these words, its not about that, it's about recognising there is simply nothing else. What you are looking for is already fully here, it's not hidden in any way.

Relax into the looking. It is happening by itself so it doesn't require effort. Just notice any thoughts, or urges seeking for an answer and let them be. notice the sensations, and let them be.
Notice the sounds around you, relax into the mystery of it all. It doesn't matter where attention goes - you are not controlling that movement either.


Watch this, it may be helpful::

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIj1BLQau4A

[mark43]

Go back an and check what sensations are experienced in the gut / chest when you notice this.
Let me know what is found.

My chest and stomach muscles contract - there is a squeezing sensation - a tightening.

You look and see - there is nothing there. Can you find any watcher, or just watching? Does there have to be a watcher or is that just an assumption you have?

When I look, I don’t feel like I find nothing. I guess I (wrongly) believe I am in my body, looking out and seeing my nose and my cheekbones. I feel sensations all over the body. I am in the body. I know that’s an assumption/belief, and it’s obviously wrong according to all the spiritual teachings, but I guess I can’t see through that yet.

I guess I see that I am not in control, but that doesn’t really seem to matter or rattle me. Ie - things that I want to do I do, and those I don’t want to do I don’t, so it doesn’t seem like much of a threat to not be in full control. I mean, yes I’m not controlling my hand, but there is intention there. It’s not like my hand is turning over when I don’t want it to.

I watched the video and all I took away was to just drop the observer. I don’t know how to do that. How do I drop what I believe to be myself? How do I cease to exist? Where do I go if I drop the observer? Do I just go to the objects of experience and pretend like I believe there is no experiencer?

[filtah]

Hi Mark.

I recommend you work a bit longer with the hand flipping.

Please try and be relaxed when you do this. If you are feeling tense or frustrated, its best to try and relax with some meditation first for example. This was helpful for me. Don't assume you know what the answers are, be curious and watch like a hawk.

Let me know how that goes.

When I look, I don’t feel like I find nothing

Good. It's really important you are honest.
When you are honest you can see the lie you believe. It's ok, we'll keep looking. You have to see this is false, it's not something you can learn or understand.

Please watch this and follow along. It's important to do the experiment yourself.
This may click or at least give you a different perspective about being 'in' a body. Repeat as many times as feels necessary.

https://youtu.be/5jYbDFyLhgI

Do I just go to the objects of experience and pretend like I believe there is no experiencer?

I think you know the answer. Pretending will get you nowhere. This is about truth and this requires honesty. I would say this is the most important aspect of this process, really. You will never see through delusions if you are not 100% honest with yourself.

When you see there is no separate self, in many ways everything is exactly the same.
If you already don't exist, then how can you cease to exist? A mirage in the desert doesn't dissapear when you realise it's not an oasis right?

What I'm pointing to is there is only experiencing. It's a happen-ing.
The experiencer / object comes after, it's a label, a thought. This explanation has no value at all, because it's not about understanding, which will just add to your story.
If you look, honestly, without thinking about it, it is obvious in your actual, direct experience. It's not hidden.