Diving into direct experience

[Jairi7]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Intellectually: The self is an illusory entity that arises when the senses are not experienced clearly.
Experientially: Lately I have started to directly experience certain senses and noticed that in none of those senses there appears to be a self. However, It still feels like there is a 'me' somewhere inside my head most of the time.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for some help with experientially understanding some of the senses that I feel like I am still unable to completely directly experience (most notably, seeing and thinking). I would also like some help with finding out if and where there are possible blind spots.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I have read some of the archived conversations on the forum and really liked the dynamic of questions and answers between the guide and the seeker. These conversations already helped me experientially understand some things about my direct experience. I hope to have a conversation of a similar nature that clarifies some of the things I do not yet experientially understand about my direct experience.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have no experience with any spiritual practices. I first learned about Buddhism about two and a half years ago and had some kind of a shift within a week. I fairly quickly understood that this was the way to go and since then I have been mostly looking at videos of spiritual teachers on Youtube. Started of with Mooji, Papaji, Rupert Spira etc. But more recently I have been watching to Simply Always Awake and similar non-duality related videos. Most of them seem to point at direct experience which really resonates.

I do not meditate and have no formal inquiry practice. However, I do spend most of my free time trying to experientially understand direct experience, looking for underlying beliefs etc.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Bluejay]

Hi there,

You can call me Henri. What would you like me to call you?

Welcome to the forum. I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like?

If yes, then we can start...

If you haven't already, please read the disclaimer here: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... isclaimer/

And then have a look at what Liberation Unleashed is not in the FAQ: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some guidelines (you may already be familiar with most of this, but just in case):

1. Post at least once every 24 to 48 hours. I'm not strict about this, but I would prefer it if you posted regularly. If you can't, please let me know.

2. Be 100% honest. There is no judgment here. No answer or question is silly or stupid. Your progress is key.

3. This process is based on direct experience, which means sensation, smell, taste, sight, sound, observed thoughts, and so on. There is no need to rely too much on the mind for answers, so long philosophical and analytical answers are best avoided.

4. Technology can be problematic. I recommend you type your answers in a text editor like MS Word or Google Docs, and then copy and paste them into this thread. This way you avoid losing your answer if there's a technical glitch.

5. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to answer each question individually. Here are instructions on how to use the quote function if it is not already clear: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And to start, I'd like to know your expectations. You don't have to use direct experience for this. Just share what comes to mind:

1. How will life change after seeing that there is no inherent self?
2. How will you change?
3. What will be different?
4. What is missing?

Enjoy! :)

[Jairi7]

Hi Henri,
Thanks a lot for responding! You can call me Jaïr. I’m very excited and can’t wait to start!

I have read the disclaimer and some of the questions in the FAQ and will try to follow the guidelines as much as I can.

Here are my answers to the four questions:

1. How will life change after seeing that there is no inherent self?

Not sure, life will probably not change much. Maybe some things will happen differently than now.

2. How will you change?

I don’t know, some behaviors might change, others might not. Maybe my appearance will even slightly change, maybe not. Honestly, I mostly don’t really care whether or not my behaviors and appearance changes.

3. What will be different?

My perception of whatever I’m experiencing will be different. Right now, the way I experience reality is build on some fundamental beliefs. Once I discover what these beliefs are and let them go I will perceive reality in a different way. I will still experience the same ‘things’, but just perceive them differently.

4. What is missing?

Something. Even though I cannot point to anything that is missing, I still seem to ‘miss’ something.

Once again, thanks a lot!
Jaïr

[Bluejay]

Hi Jaïr,

Okay. This is fine. Expectations may pop up later. We'll deal with them if/when they show up :)

Let's start by laying the foundation, to make sure we're on the same page.

You may be familiar with what the coming exercises go through. If so, see them as a way to repeat what you already know, which in of itself is helpful.

Socks Exercise

There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers), and seeing (looking in direct experience).

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

- You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

- Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are.

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

[Jairi7]

Hi Henri,

I am clear about this difference between knowledge and direct experience.

Jaïr

[Bluejay]

Excellent.

Let's move on to the next piece:

Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try 2-3 times throughout the day. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order on each line. Exactly.

[Jairi7]

Hi Henri,

I did the exercise, here are my answers:

Activity 1: Watching a Youtube video (after brushing my teeth)
Seeing the screen of my phone (and the background); simply= image/color
Smelling the room; simply = smell
Feeling the phone in my hand; simply = sensation
Tasting toothpaste; simply = taste
Hearing the sound from my phone (and sounds from the background); simply = sound
Thought about the content of the video and whether the exercise is going well; simply = thought

Activity 2: Playing/singing a song
Seeing my hands move across the piano keys; simply= image/color
Smelling the room; simply = smell
Feeling my fingers touch the keys, my hands ‘touch’ the air and some feeling in my throat; simply = sensation
Tasting the usual taste of my mouth; simply = taste
Hearing the piano notes, my own voice and my fingers tapping the keys; simply = sound
Thought about the exercise and about the meaning behind the song; simply = thought

Activity 3: Eating a piece of bread
Seeing the patterns on the upper side of the piece of bread; simply= image/color
Smelling the peanut butter; simply = smell
Feeling my fingers touch the bread, my lips/tongue touch the bread, my throat touch the bread and some feeling in my stomach; simply = sensation
Tasting the peanut butter and bread; simply = taste
Hearing the crunch of the bread and birds; simply = sound
Thought about the exercise; simply = thought

~Jaïr

[Bluejay]

Thanks, Jaïr. This was very good.

Now let's do this:

Mind Labeling

Here is an exercise which examines how the mind labels experience. This takes about 20 minutes and you will need pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 2 x 10 minute parts. For each 10 minute part pay attention to any bodily sensation (is there any tightening, or any relaxing?)

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

- I am sitting on a chair
- I am hearing a clock ticking
- I am looking at a computer screen
- I am feeling hungry

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the second ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”.

Describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

- Sitting on a chair
- Typing
- Breathing
- Blinking
- Hearing the clock
- Hunger

(Watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labeled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Enjoy! :)

[Jairi7]

Hi Henri,

I did the exercise, here are my answers:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

With the first exercise whenever I think/write the word ‘I’, I feel some spot between my eyes above my nose. With the second one this did not occur as much (still happened occasionally). The first one felt more claustrophobic and constricted in the chest. The second one felt more like stuff was ‘happening’ rather than ‘being done’. All in all, I would say that the second one felt more true, though that is based on intuition.

2. What is here without labels?

Only the experience itself.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Labels just describe the experience, they do not affect the experience.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

The second exercise felt more open, relaxed and less constricted. It also felt less claustrophobic.

Thanks a lot for this exercise by the way. I really enjoyed it!
Jaïr

[Bluejay]

Well done on the exercise, Jaïr!

Thanks a lot for this exercise by the way. I really enjoyed it!

Glad to hear it. It's definitely an interesting one :)

Here's the next one, another brick in the foundation:

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what do they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts about something, because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought about ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk about can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

- Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
- Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Enjoy and let me know what you find :)

[Jairi7]

Hi Henri,
I didn’t have any apples at home so I picked an orange haha.

Anyway, here are my answers to the questions for this exercise:

What about the content of thoughts, what do they describe?

The content of the thoughts either describe the label of the experience itself or specific characteristics of the label of the experience.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought about ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

There is no ‘apple’, there is only the experience of the image of the apple, the sound (when picked up or when eaten) of the apple, the feeling (when touched) of the apple, the taste (when eaten) of the apple and the smell of the apple. There is also thought about the apple, even though I am unsure on whether or not I am actually experiencing the thought itself or just thinking about content of the thought. All these experiences together seem to point to there being an apple prior to the experience, however this apple is never found in actual experience.

However, is an apple actually known?

All in all, the apple is never actually known. Only image, sound, smell, taste, feeling and thought is actually known, which seems to point to the existence of the apple. However, the apple itself is never actually found anywhere.

~Jaïr

[Bluejay]

I didn’t have any apples at home so I picked an orange haha.

Orange works! :)

All in all, the apple is never actually known. Only image, sound, smell, taste, feeling and thought is actually known, which seems to point to the existence of the apple. However, the apple itself is never actually found anywhere.

Yup, good. No comments from me needed.

Also feel free to let me know if you have any questions or concerns pop up.

Let's move on:

Explore ‘Sense of Self'

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there.

You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this sense of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by feeling it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

Enjoy! :)

[Jairi7]

Hi Henri,

Sorry for the longer break from posting. This exercise is tough, because I know what the ‘right’ answer should be from watching all kinds of videos etc. However, this is not in accordance with my actual experience. So I answered the questions in this exercise from my actual experience even though I know they are probably wrong haha.

Does the sense of self have a location?

The sense of self seems to be located somewhere around my eyes when I’m thinking about an image and somewhere around my mouth when I’m thinking about some words. However, I can never pinpoint the location exactly.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

No, it does seem to have any dimensions.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

When it seems to be located in my mouth somewhere, it seems to be the one verbalizing the thoughts. When it seems to be located in between my eyes it seems to be the one thinking about the images.

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

I have no clue. I cannot find any ‘way’ through which sense of self could be communicating to me.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

Yes, initially it seems to be made of some sensations in between the eyes or in the mouth. However, when I recognize that those sensations are just sensations and not actually the sense of self, the self still seems to persist.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

In my direct experience the sense of self is made up only of sensations and some thought about the location of those sensations.

What is found?

Even though I can never localize a self, it still really seems that it is there somewhere inside of my head.

I feel like I am not aware of some part of my experience, which leads me to believe that there still is a self. This may just be a believe itself though.

~Jaïr

[Bluejay]

Sorry for the longer break from posting. This exercise is tough, because I know what the ‘right’ answer should be from watching all kinds of videos etc. However, this is not in accordance with my actual experience. So I answered the questions in this exercise from my actual experience even though I know they are probably wrong haha.

Good!

It's important that you share honestly what is going on for you, otherwise I am guiding a figment of your imagination :)

There are no wrong answers, so answer freely and without concern. Play with this whole thing. It's not serious. No one is in control of this ship, so might as well enjoy the ride even though there's no one that can decide that.

The sense of self seems to be located somewhere around my eyes when I’m thinking about an image and somewhere around my mouth when I’m thinking about some words. However, I can never pinpoint the location exactly.

Ah, interesting.

Are these sensations around your eyes and around your mouth a sense of self, or are they simply sensations that are noticed when attention is put in those areas?

For example, you imagine speaking words with your mouth, so attention goes there, and sensations are noticed.

If you thought words came out of your big toe, focus would go there, and sensations would be noticed there. Would that mean a sense of self is there?

When it seems to be located in my mouth somewhere, it seems to be the one verbalizing the thoughts. When it seems to be located in between my eyes it seems to be the one thinking about the images.

Look for the one that verbalizes the thoughts, where is it?

And then look for the thinker of thoughts, can you find it without going into thinking?

Are there borders between thoughts and everything else?

Even though I can never localize a self, it still really seems that it is there somewhere inside of my head.

So it being somewhere in your head, how do you know this? What tells you this?

Can this piece of information be found in direct experience?

I feel like I am not aware of some part of my experience, which leads me to believe that there still is a self. This may just be a believe itself though.

So if you are not aware of something and that makes you believe that it is real, then we could say that we have discovered what the self looks like, because you are not aware of it :-))

Here's a picture of the self in your head (it likes pizza. if you likes pizza then that is more proof):

[Jairi7]

Hi Henri,

I do like pizza, so maybe this is the self that I have been looking for all this time hahahah!

Are these sensations around your eyes and around your mouth a sense of self, or are they simply sensations that are noticed when attention is put in those areas?
Look for the one that verbalizes the thoughts, where is it?

Yeah, so when I try to locate the sense of self somewhere in behind my face I only find sensations. However, it then seems like the sense of self retreats back to some parts inside my head where I cannot feel any sensations. And since I cannot feel any sensations I cannot ‘prove’ that the sense of self is absent. So I know that the sensations that I feel are not the sense of self, but rather just body sensations. However, the sense of self seems to still persist in the parts of inside of my head where I do not feel any sensations.

Are there borders between thoughts and everything else?

Hmm, the first thing that came to mind was that my face is the border between the space where my thoughts appear and the space where everything else appears. However, then I noticed that my face was just a bunch of sensations so now I’m unsure and very confused haha. The thoughts and the sensations then seemed to appear more closely together and not as much separate as first. However, the seeing, hearing, etc. still seemed to appear at a ‘distance’ from the thoughts and face sensations.

So it being somewhere in your head, how do you know this? What tells you this?
Can this piece of information be found in direct experience?

I don’t know why the sense of self seems to be in my head. I have not found it anywhere in direct experience. I wanted to answer that it is because everything I sense appears in front of my face, however the sensations that form my face also appear in the same location. So now I really have no idea why the sense of self is in my head, because now it looks like there was never a reason for it to be there in the first place.

This was really hard to put into words, so I hope it all makes a little bit of sense hahah.

By the way, these questions were awesome! They really ‘forced’ me to investigate all this stuff without allowing me to rely on thinking to come up with answers.

~Jaïr