Why do I feel I exist when I know that I don't?

[Dave]

Good day to you Odemira,

Wow! this was an eye opener!

I feel good again at the moment,

Ah, here comes the story! Dave has just been created. And Dave's believing the story of Dave.
You don't exist!!! Look and check that out again.

Could it be that I'm trying to abandon unhappy/bad Dave, while retaining and keeping hold of good/happy Dave? Hmmm, That's a revelation! Dave doesn't exist outside of a thought, EVER! This is confusing! I'm going round in circles.

Wait! What you're pointing out here is that DAVE DOESN'T EXIST!! EVER!!! NEVER DID!!!! Duh! How my mind LOVES to convolute what is simple.

Yes, interesting how it begins to feel that it's a lie, that the 'I' is just pretending to exist. The sense of a self can still remain, just it's not identified with. It's just another feeling that arises. And the story still unfolds, just it's not 'your' story anymore.

I think I had an expectation that the sense of self would NOT remain! There are times when there isn't that sense of self, just what is happening at that time. When that sense of self returns, it's often seen as "Just a thought, and a physical sensation, neither of which constitute a "ME"" My expectation was that the situation would stabilize into a permanent "non-selfness".

What is it that holds this expectation?
Is an expectation a real thing?
Or is it just the content of a thought?
What does the thought say?
You never have existed outside of a thought, Dave is just a label. Yes? Check it again.

There is nothing that holds the expectation, just a thought that says "I have an expectation".

An expectation is just the content of a thought that just happens, and is followed by another thought that says "That's MY expectation". There's no one here having expectations, just a thought that says it's so!

"I" don't exist, Dave is just a label, a language convention, all that ever has exists is whatever is happening here and now, and "Dave" can never be found in that happening outside of a thought.

But still the thoughts arise that Dave hasn't made the enlightenment grade yet, yes? It's the same old program running the show. Ditch the program - there is no Dave to achieve anything, never has been. It's just a story concocted from sensory inputs and thoughts and feelings. Can you find anything that is experienced other than sensory inputs and thoughts and feelings?

Yes, this thought still remains! But there's no one here thinking it! Let me repeat what you said. Dave thinks he hasn't made the enlightenment grade - check. BUT it's recognized that there is NO DAVE to not make the grade - check. Hmmm. Dave isn't free, and yet there is no Dave that could ever be free/not free.

This is clearly absurd! I have the urge to do lines, like they would make us do in school, just to drill the message home.......

THERE IS NO DAVE, NEVER WAS
THERE IS NO DAVE, NEVER WAS
THERE IS NO DAVE, NEVER WAS

Haha! How many would I have to do before I start to believe what is so obvious? No, I DO believe already, before I SEE the obvious! And besides, that whole last paragraph is just the story of Dave again.

There is nothing here but sensory inputs, thoughts, and feelings, as you said. Some of the thoughts suggest a "ME" because as a small child this body/mind was convinced of there being such a thing. But the fact is that there never was a me/Dave/self/I, it's just not true.

What has to happen, according to your thoughts, before 'Dave' is officially no more? A big bang and fireworks? A merging into the golden light of eternal bliss? What's the storyline? Whatever it is, forget it. Let it go, it's a myth, a story. What if it's the very thing that's keeping 'Dave' in place?

This is a HUGE question! Umm.......

.......... I guess the truth is that NOTHING has to happen. If I look at my hand for example, all there is is a hand (let's not get into a discussion about space and molecules etc. I'm a human being living a human life :P) ....a thought may come saying that "I" am looking, but it's JUST a thought, with that realization the "I" is meaningless and dissolves. If the thought is accompanied by a physical sensation, it goes away with the above realization also. I can apply that exercise to ANYTHING, instead of "ME" listening, there's just hearing, or seeing, tasting, moving, feeling, whatever. There isn't a "me" in any of it, never was, so what needs to happen?........ As you suggest, the "storyline" has to be dropped, in this moment it is dropped, but how to stop it from returning?....... I guess that's not going to happen, but when it returns it needs to be dropped again.... and again..... and again...... and again. Eventually it has to stop returning... right Odemira? Say it's so.


There has been a big realization here, that what is holding "me" back is the expectation that the experience of being selfless should be permanent. It's a very enticing carrot! There doesn't seem to be a way of drooping the program that's running, other than to keep seeing the truth. That appears to be the value of coming here every day to be nudged and reminded.

There's a feeling here that if we could get away from using language for a while, that would help. It seems that there's little we can do in the way of communication that doesn't involve and encourage the use of pronouns, which is probably the very reason that culture developed the idea of a separate self to begin with. Just a thought.

I'm very grateful for this experience and your patience.

Thanks Odemira!

Dave :)

[odemira]

Hi Dave,

How my mind LOVES to convolute what is simple.

So true. So how to notice 'the simple'?

As you suggest, the "storyline" has to be dropped, in this moment it is dropped, but how to stop it from returning?....... I guess that's not going to happen, but when it returns it needs to be dropped again.... and again..... and again...... and again. Eventually it has to stop returning...

When you go and watch a movie, you may get engrossed in it so much that you forget it's only a movie, it feels so real. Same with Dave's story, thoughts will still arise, that's not a problem, only believing them is the problem. Dave is no more real than Batman - does Batman believe his story?

There has been a big realization here, that what is holding "me" back is the expectation that the experience of being selfless should be permanent. It's a very enticing carrot!

Yes. What we're doing here is looking to discover that there is no self in any form, only seeing, hearing, moving, thinking etc happening, no doer, no controller. Once that's realised, it can be checked every time and a self will never be found. What if that's it? Is that enough? How does that feel?

I'm very grateful for this experience and your patience.

You are welcome :)

with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Hi Odemira,

How my mind LOVES to convolute what is simple.

So true. So how to notice 'the simple'?

See what is here now! Of course when that happens there isn't anyone noticing anything, it just is.

When you go and watch a movie, you may get engrossed in it so much that you forget it's only a movie, it feels so real. Same with Dave's story, thoughts will still arise, that's not a problem, only believing them is the problem. Dave is no more real than Batman - does Batman believe his story?

This is the hard part. For example, this morning "I" was apparently lost in the story of how "I" was suffering, because "I" was the seeker that just couldn't pin this down. At that time the knowledge that no Dave exists didn't help at all, the suffering was real, or at least seemed real. It took a LOT of coercing to get thought back on track and "ME" to a realization that "ME" was just a word. Sheesh sometimes "I" think "I'll" never get this. I'm going round in circles I know =\

Yes. What we're doing here is looking to discover that there is no self in any form, only seeing, hearing, moving, thinking etc happening, no doer, no controller. Once that's realised, it can be checked every time and a self will never be found. What if that's it? Is that enough? How does that feel?

Yes, that's enough (though I hear tell that after that realization doors start to open :P) but "I" don't understand why that realization won't happen

As a child this body/mind was given a name and then convinced that it was a separate entity called "me" that controlled things, thought thoughts etc. But when that assumption is looked at, it is seen through, there is no "me". In any experience there is JUST the experience, and then thought comes and "claims" the experience as "mine" Sometimes those "me" thoughts aren't even there, sometimes they are. When they are there, sometimes it's easy to just dismiss them as mere thought, and other times they "take over" and seem so real. Circles!

Dave.

[odemira]

Hi Dave,

"I" don't understand why that realization won't happen. As a child this body/mind was given a name and then convinced that it was a separate entity called "me" that controlled things, thought thoughts etc. But when that assumption is looked at, it is seen through, there is no "me". In any experience there is JUST the experience, and then thought comes and "claims" the experience as "mine" Sometimes those "me" thoughts aren't even there, sometimes they are. When they are there, sometimes it's easy to just dismiss them as mere thought, and other times they "take over" and seem so real. Circles!

Stop believing the 'I' story!! You write one short sentence not understanding why the realization won't happen - and then six whole lines describing the realization from 'the no self there' experience!!!!!!!!!! Let the story go, you made the grade already, cos it doesn't exist.

What's the fear of letting the story go about? What would it mean? What can't be escaped from any more if there's no 'Dave who never makes the grade'?

Nudge, nudge ;)
with love
Odemira

[odemira]

Hi Dave,

A second post from me today - saw this written by Elena Nezhinsky and had to share it with you, it's so apt for where 'you' are - :)

"Right on the verge of awakening? See if there are moments where you naturally just flow and feel relaxation, and they are perfect, and no need to remind that there is no I. And see that there are moments when you need to remind. Look how those moments are different. Why it's natural in one moment, and like a wall in another. Look up what makes it flow and what makes it stuck in another...what thoughts present, what sensations, feelings - whatever it is, you need to look, not ponder or think....It's investigation right into the present moment, moment after moment, just that sensing and feeling the differences. Seeing clearly that difference, the brain uses it to learn which to "favor", and which to "discard".

with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Hi Odemira,

Thanks for your last two posts, the timing of their arrival was impeccable!

Stop believing the 'I' story!! You write one short sentence not understanding why the realization won't happen - and then six whole lines describing the realization from 'the no self there' experience!!!!!!!!!! Let the story go, you made the grade already, cos it doesn't exist.

Ok, you win, It's become quite an onerous task carrying "Dave" around the last couple of days, exhausting too! there isn't a need for it now.

What's the fear of letting the story go about? What would it mean? What can't be escaped from any more if there's no 'Dave who never makes the grade'?

There isn't any fear as far as can be seen, fear only ever came from the concept of "Dave".

"Right on the verge of awakening? See if there are moments where you naturally just flow and feel relaxation, and they are perfect, and no need to remind that there is no I. And see that there are moments when you need to remind. Look how those moments are different. Why it's natural in one moment, and like a wall in another. Look up what makes it flow and what makes it stuck in another...what thoughts present, what sensations, feelings - whatever it is, you need to look, not ponder or think....It's investigation right into the present moment, moment after moment, just that sensing and feeling the differences. Seeing clearly that difference, the brain uses it to learn which to "favor", and which to "discard".

The difference between the times of flow and the contrasting times when "Dave" is pretending to run the show is very big, and very obvious. It's going to be interesting to see this unfold. There has been an impatience to live more fully "in the flow" but that is becoming more so all on it's own. The only "struggle" is a thought that says "I'm not getting this" which of course is just a fairy tale.

Thanks Odemira <3

[odemira]

Hi Dave

The difference between the times of flow and the contrasting times when "Dave" is pretending to run the show is very big, and very obvious.

So do you feel you have seen through the illusion of the self?

It's going to be interesting to see this unfold.

Just checking, is there any separation between what unfolds and what sees it? And what is it that judges it as interesting?

The only "struggle" is a thought that says "I'm not getting this" which of course is just a fairy tale.

Yes, no thought is worth more than the sound of the refrigerator and should be treated the same.

with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Hi Odemira,

So do you feel you have seen through the illusion of the self?

There is no "self" outside of a thought, there is only what is happening. The thought still comes to claim that what is happening is happening to "me" but that is only a thought. The thought is real, but the "me" content is a concept only.

Just checking, is there any separation between what unfolds and what sees it?

Separation is seen, but when looked at it is seen through. When looking directly at what is here, even the word separation is meaningless. The tendency is still strongest to not see directly, to see from the point of view of "me", but that story isn't believed.

And what is it that judges it as interesting?

Judgment can only come from a separate self, so I guess that is still seen to be the case. When life is seen directly there is no judgment, only what is happening.

Dave :)

[odemira]

Hi Dave

There is no "self" outside of a thought, there is only what is happening. The thought still comes to claim that what is happening is happening to "me" but that is only a thought. The thought is real, but the "me" content is a concept only.

:) How does it feel to see this?

Separation is seen, but when looked at it is seen through. When looking directly at what is here, even the word separation is meaningless. The tendency is still strongest to not see directly, to see from the point of view of "me", but that story isn't believed.

:) How does it feel to see this?

Judgment can only come from a separate self, so I guess that is still seen to be the case. When life is seen directly there is no judgment, only what is happening.

Yes, judgment is just a thought that arises, with 'I' as the subject, who has opinions, judgments etc. Just thinking happening. Not a problem if it's not believed or identified with but is seen as just thinking. No more significant than a cloud in the sky.

with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Hi Odemira,

I had made a reply to your last post explaining how I had "seen the light". However I didn't post it, instead I saved a draft which apparently didn't save. Unfortunately, less than an hour after I "saved" the draft, the realization was gone.

I WANT TO DIE!!! I'm at the end of my rope!

I understand why ignorance is bliss, all the other poor saps around me at least have a carrot to chase after. I don't even have a false hope anymore. I know I'm so close but I just can't do it, and every time I come back it's like they describe the low after a drug high. Everyday life, always trying to be somewhere you aren't is too painful. Even suicide isn't an option :P

Ugh!!! I haven't been so unhappy for over 20 years, this sucks so incredibly intensely.

Sorry I'm such a whiner, I don't know what to do.

*sigh* still looking.....

Dave.

[odemira]

Hi Dave

Riding the rollercoaster comes with lots of ups and downs.....

I WANT TO DIE!!! I'm at the end of my rope!

Sounds like the death call of the I, it knows it's an imaginary belief hanging on the end of an imaginary rope.

I know I'm so close but I just can't do it,

No, quite right. 'you' can't do this. Because there is no 'you' to do it. If 'you' could, you'ld have done it long ago.

Ugh!!! I haven't been so unhappy for over 20 years, this sucks so incredibly intensely.

Yeah, I empathise completely - but I'm not going to sympathise, cos it's part of the gating process. The fiercer the fire, the more thoroughly burnt away things are.

Sorry I'm such a whiner, I don't know what to do.

No apology needed, I'm with you completely. What to do? Feel the intensity of the 'suckiness', thank it for being there. When you're on a rollercoaster, you can cling to the seat for dear life and feel terrified, or you can relax, you know you're 100% safe, and just let the ride take you. Fully experience the intensity of the ride, Dave ;)

with love
Odemira

[Dave]

No apology needed, I'm with you completely. What to do? Feel the intensity of the 'suckiness', thank it for being there. When you're on a rollercoaster, you can cling to the seat for dear life and feel terrified, or you can relax, you know you're 100% safe, and just let the ride take you. Fully experience the intensity of the ride, Dave ;)

with love
Odemira

Thanks Odemira :)

[Dave]

Good morning Odemira,

The "shift" happened, yes I can say for sure that now I know what a "shift" is. I have to admit, it wasn't AT ALL what was expected!

I can't thank you enough Odemira, for the crap you put up with! You're a star!! I can't wait to be able to help people as you do :)

Dave :)

[odemira]

Wonderful!!! So pleased for you that the shift has happened. Tell me, when and how did that happen?

Sounds like you're ready for our final questions! Here they are - please answer them as fully as you can :)

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail. Especially as you say it's not at all what you expected.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

It's great that you want to guide people too, pass the gift on! As you'll realise, we only ever guide an aspect of ourselves, so I have been very grateful for what you have showed me along our path together.

with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Hi Odemira,

Wonderful!!! So pleased for you that the shift has happened. Tell me, when and how did that happen?

I need to let this be for a couple days Odemira, hope that's ok?

I'll be back in touch soon.

Dave :)