Looking for a guide

[Bluejay]

Thanks Henri, will let you know how it goes!

Looking forward to it :-)

[okjose]

What happened? Report back what you discover.

Hi Henri,

So I noticed for me that it is a feeling of openness or contraction (maybe that’s where the saying “being open to something” comes from). It seems located in my heart area and maybe belly and legs, maybe full body.

I woke up yesterday morning and remembered the experiment and realised my body wanted to go outside / or felt open to the idea so I did that straight away. I spent some time sat on a wall over looking the sea near where I live. The tide was out so there are lots of birds doing their thing. I started to watch one particular bird and wondered does it know I’m looking at it, then I questioned the I and realised that “I” was a thought. For a short time it was just the bird and I wasn’t there doing anything and it looked crystal clear and there was a feeling of space and peace. That was a lovely experience. I then looked along the wall and had an urge to walk along it. Like a child might without thinking about it. What stopped me was the thought ‘I’d look silly’. So I honed in on the feeling in the body as I looked along the wall and it felt like freedom so I just did it anyway.
It was interesting to see how the body almost impulsively wanted to do things without thought and then thought steps in.

I went to work later that morning. I work in a small wine shop and people often come in with their dogs, I usually want to pet the dogs when they come in (when I see they’re curious of me) but never do due to the thought: the owner won’t like it or an irational fear.
This time a dog and owner came in and I just went with the flow allowed myself to stroke the dog and it loved it. The owner made a comment that she (dog) doesn’t usually let people stroke her. Of course these are all seemingly small occurrences but it really highlighted for me that the body knows or impulsively wants to do something and then the mind/thought steps in to analyse almost immediately after.. This isn’t a bad thing but it helps to see the order of things and what’s going on.

The feeling in the body in relation to self is quite clearly contraction of sensation in the body, on the other side a very good feeling of space or emptiness when its seen that there is no person here. I’m seeing more and more that everything is just seen and that “me” is a thought. Even familiar uncomfortable feelings or thoughts have come up and it's seen that they are happening the way they always have but not to anyone and they fade. My default mode still seems to be caught in imagination/thought and a person/me concept but things are becoming much clearer and the belief in "I" has become significantly weaker.

[Bluejay]

What stopped me was the thought ‘I’d look silly’. So I honed in on the feeling in the body as I looked along the wall and it felt like freedom so I just did it anyway.

Very nice!

A good practice is to challenge thoughts in exactly the way you did. If something feels open and the body feels drawn to do it, but a thought says no, then try doing it anyway, even if it's partially. This helps you see that thoughts are irrelevant to living life.

The feeling in the body in relation to self is quite clearly contraction of sensation in the body, on the other side a very good feeling of space or emptiness when its seen that there is no person here.

Right on :)

My default mode still seems to be caught in imagination/thought and a person/me concept but things are becoming much clearer and the belief in "I" has become significantly weaker.

Where would you say there is still a sense of "I", or where is it strongest?

You may find these two videos interesting:

1. https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

2. https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

Enjoy :)

[okjose]

Hi Henri, thank you both of those videos are so helpful.

Where would you say there is still a sense of "I", or where is it strongest?

It seems to be just be a thought/image that I have of myself that attention keeps going to. Like a self concious thought of how my body might be appearing from an outside perspective.

[Bluejay]

It seems to be just be a thought/image that I have of myself that attention keeps going to. Like a self concious thought of how my body might be appearing from an outside perspective.

Is there an expectation that those thoughts shouldn't appear, or just an expectation that attention shouldn't be drawn there?

I still have similar thoughts, but there's much less stickiness than before seeing through self.

Let's explore control, since we haven't done that yet:

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

- How is the movement controlled?

- Does a thought control it?

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

- How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

- Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

- Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Enjoy! :)

[okjose]

Is there an expectation that those thoughts shouldn't appear, or just an expectation that attention shouldn't be drawn there?

It was more that my attention shouldn't be drawn there so much.

I still have similar thoughts, but there's much less stickiness than before seeing through self.

This is reassuring thank you

There seems to be a subtle identification or possibly just a habit of attention with the thought of an image I have of myself. Also maybe identification with a thinker and the voice in my head.

- How is the movement controlled?

Absolutely no idea. Which is very cool.

- Does a thought control it?

No, It's clear that thought is not controlling the movement, almost like they're independant of eachother.

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No.

- How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

There is no thinking or decision being made. It was assumed there was but the movement clearly happens without thinking. The movement also feels instantaneous, thinking would almost create a delay or get in the way so to speak.

- Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

It really seemed like a thought process decided which hand but now I think there was the natural impulse of the body and the thought of choosing happened.

- Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No.The body just seems to be doing it.

This was fun! So the body decides everything or just does things and thinking sometimes hinders the natural flow? Or is decision or choice just a concept that doesn't really exists outside of thought? Part of me thinks it just doesn't need to be worked out but it's quite exciting to think about.

[Bluejay]

There seems to be a subtle identification or possibly just a habit of attention with the thought of an image I have of myself. Also maybe identification with a thinker and the voice in my head.

There are more subtle ways to identify even after the self illusion falls away. This is why it's important to be aware of your expectations.

Nevertheless, these are opportunities to inquire. If you notice a contraction in your body, track it back to a thought of an image you have of yourself, you can inquire into who this thought is referring to? (and so on)

This was fun! So the body decides everything or just does things and thinking sometimes hinders the natural flow? Or is decision or choice just a concept that doesn't really exists outside of thought? Part of me thinks it just doesn't need to be worked out but it's quite exciting to think about.

Thinking is an overlay, similar to a sports broadcaster at a football game. Is the broadcaster needed? Does the broadcaster influence the game?

Choices and decisions happen on the relative level. The question we are exploring here is: Is there a chooser or a decider?

You can always go to the absolute level and say that there are no choices, no one doing anything, but that is not always so helpful :).

We can explore choices and decisions in a while if it's still relevant (I've written it down so I don't forget).

It was more that my attention shouldn't be drawn there so much.

Now this is interesting. Let's explore it.

Observing Thoughts

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear.

Try your best to completely ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts?

Do you control where attention goes?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It may seem like thoughts are ordered logically, but look carefully. Is there an organized sequence? Or is it just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence' or 'they take content from previous thoughts' or 'one thought follows another thought'?

Let me know what you find :)

[okjose]

Thinking is an overlay, similar to a sports broadcaster at a football game. Is the broadcaster needed? Does the broadcaster influence the game?

This is a great analogy thanks for clearing that up.

Observing Thoughts

Where are they coming from and going to?

They seem to come from nowhere or space and vanish into nothing or space. At first I wanted to say my head but I see thoughts can be imagined or projected on the other side of the room for example.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No they seem to just appear.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No because I can’t preempt a thought.

Can you predict your next thought?

No, any prediction would be the next thought.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts?

I really thought I could but when I try to test it out with two contrasting thoughts it feels like fighting with the mind.

Do you control where attention goes?

It feels like I can control attention. But then if I ask 'do I know where I’m going to direct attention to next', it’s the same as 'do I know what thought is going to come next', the answer would be ,no, since I can’t preempt it happening. But it strongly feels like I can direct attention or even that I am the attention. Yet It feels good in the body to let that go and say there is no “i” here to choose where attention goes, there’s just the seeing of where I goes. (Sorry for the back and forth response this is a tricky one)

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

I know from previous experience that I can’t.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

It appears I can only observe what comes up and then call it choosing.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No, there’s nothing to preempt and then stop a thought before it arises.

It may seem like thoughts are ordered logically, but look carefully. Is there an organized sequence? Or is it just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence' or 'they take content from previous thoughts' or 'one thought follows another thought'?

It appears to be random or like you said a commentary on what's happening.

[Bluejay]

At first I wanted to say my head but I see thoughts can be imagined or projected on the other side of the room for example.

Yes, this is an interesting one. Are your thoughts in your head, or is your head a part of your mental world?

If you close your eyes, can you feel a border where your head is? (without visualizing your head, which is a thought)

It feels like I can control attention. But then if I ask 'do I know where I’m going to direct attention to next', it’s the same as 'do I know what thought is going to come next', the answer would be ,no, since I can’t preempt it happening. But it strongly feels like I can direct attention or even that I am the attention. Yet It feels good in the body to let that go and say there is no “i” here to choose where attention goes, there’s just the seeing of where I goes. (Sorry for the back and forth response this is a tricky one)

So this feeling that you are the attention. Can you look in direct experience at this?

What do you find?

Is attention separate from anything, or is that separation created by thought?

[okjose]

Yes, this is an interesting one. Are your thoughts in your head, or is your head a part of your mental world?

A head is an idea/label and part of the mental world I see that now. Like the apple

If you close your eyes, can you feel a border where your head is? (without visualizing your head, which is a thought)

No it's very blurry no definite line. The more I go into it its just a floating mass of sensation with no defined shape or size (which is kind of imagined but the closest description to the direct experience of it)

So this feeling that you are the attention. Can you look in direct experience at this?

Okay so yes in I can look in direct experience and it's a thought/image/picture of a me looking around quietly.

What do you find?

When that's seen I feel like a little controller behind the eyes but controlling the eye movement and thus where visual attention goes but looking more directly I see I can't choose where the eyes go or where attention goes it just happens. That felt freeing. It's was quite an intimate/private sense of me that was hard to look at at first. Im not sure if it's fully seen through but it's been looked at. I think I need to spend more time in DE.

Is attention separate from anything, or is that separation created by thought?

No it doesn't feel like it is separate from anything, it's sometimes hard to even think what it is or if it's an independent thing or more of a concept. It's seeming possible and likely that all separation is imagined. But I don't know what that means but it feels right.

[Bluejay]

Excellent looking. Very nice, Jose :)

No it doesn't feel like it is separate from anything, it's sometimes hard to even think what it is or if it's an independent thing or more of a concept. It's seeming possible and likely that all separation is imagined. But I don't know what that means but it feels right.

To me it's similar to the hearing exercise we did. Is there a hearer or just the heard?

And yes, this can become difficult to put into words after a while :)

When that's seen I feel like a little controller behind the eyes but controlling the eye movement and thus where visual attention goes but looking more directly I see I can't choose where the eyes go or where attention goes it just happens. That felt freeing. It's was quite an intimate/private sense of me that was hard to look at at first. Im not sure if it's fully seen through but it's been looked at. I think I need to spend more time in DE.

This is similar to palm flipping. The palm flips. The eyes move.

Perhaps the next exercise would be appropriate now...

Stream Exercise

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.

Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side.

Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground and so on?

Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where 'Jose' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are color preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look cool for a certain person) etc.

Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life?

Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which 'Jose' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

Enjoy :)

[okjose]

To me it's similar to the hearing exercise we did. Is there a hearer or just the heard?

Yes exactly, I was looking at a box at the time and so it was a visual version of that.

This is similar to palm flipping. The palm flips. The eyes move.

Yes, I see what you mean. It seems like a good way to get into direct experience if that makes sense.

Stream Exercise

1. Can you find anywhere where 'Jose' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

No, I can’t. I guess the elements is all there is / the flow is all there is, things just happen. Decisions are seemingly made but no one is pulling the strings so to speak or controlling it. There can’t be a controller because it can’t be predicted what happens next (including thought).

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are color preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look cool for a certain person) etc.

I tried observing this as I was getting ready and choosing what to wear today, it all seemed automatic. Every movement and seeming decision happened by itself like it always has but it was noticed that I didn't need to be there controlling it. I wondered if the impulse of the body movement came first before the thought. Like you said the mind is just a commentator. But thinks it’s choosing?

Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life?

There doesn't appear to be one when I look.

Can you find someone somewhere?

No. Just in thought/imagination

3. Can anything be found for which 'Jose' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

No it all just happened maybe automatically. Also Jose is a thought (which is a hard pill to swallow) so theres doing things but not by Jose specifically because Jose is imagination in direct experience. That's seen but hard to believe at times.

If nothing can be predicted (including thoughts) then how can or how has anything ever be decided or chosen (by a person) Does the body just do or decide based on previous input (experience/conditioning)? It gets my mind into knots and I flip between seeing things clearly and not.

[Bluejay]

I wondered if the impulse of the body movement came first before the thought. Like you said the mind is just a commentator. But thinks it’s choosing?

There is no 'it', but I understand what you mean. There are thoughts saying 'I chose this'. This is how the self illusion is kept alive. It's a thought after the fact saying 'I did that', 'I chose that', 'I don't get this', and so on.

Also Jose is a thought (which is a hard pill to swallow) so theres doing things but not by Jose specifically because Jose is imagination in direct experience. That's seen but hard to believe at times.

These hard to swallow moments are also opportunities. Not to try and grasp it, because that's thinking. Instead, to look in direct experience at the fear, a thought like 'hard to believe', and then relax into the feeling that follows.

If nothing can be predicted (including thoughts) then how can or how has anything ever be decided or chosen (by a person) Does the body just do or decide based on previous input (experience/conditioning)? It gets my mind into knots and I flip between seeing things clearly and not.

Do you flip between seeing things clearly or not? Look in direct experience. What flips?

You know, I have no idea how life works. As you go deeper into this process, you begin to realize that it's okay not to know. In fact, it's impossible. This whole thing is a mystery.

Yet as you saw in the Inner GPS exercise, the body just moves. And in the stream exercise, you saw that the body doesn't move independent of everything else. It is a part of a whole slew of conditions.

So... life moves.

Now...

Time for another round of reflection: What does it feel like to see this?

And remember earlier you said:

It seems to be just be a thought/image that I have of myself that attention keeps going to. Like a self concious thought of how my body might be appearing from an outside perspective.

It was more that my attention shouldn't be drawn there so much.

How do you see this now?

[okjose]

There is no 'it', but I understand what you mean. There are thoughts saying 'I chose this'. This is how the self illusion is kept alive. It's a thought after the fact saying 'I did that', 'I chose that', 'I don't get this', and so on.

That makes sense

These hard to swallow moments are also opportunities. Not to try and grasp it, because that's thinking. Instead, to look in direct experience at the fear, a thought like 'hard to believe', and then relax into the feeling that follows.

This is very helpful thank you. I've noticed if I hold attention on the fearful thought or belief it fades and then there can be a relaxing and warm feeling.

Do you flip between seeing things clearly or not? Look in direct experience. What flips?

No you're right, seeing is just seeing, in a way it's always the same everyday seeing (the content changes). The thought flips or the flipping is a thought. I think I got caught up in a bit of a mind storm / thoughts trying to think my way to a solution. It's like I thought I was looking in DE but infact was thinking hard on what was going on.

You know, I have no idea how life works. As you go deeper into this process, you begin to realize that it's okay not to know. In fact, it's impossible. This whole thing is a mystery.

That's good to hear, I was trying to come up with some sort of answer to it all yesterday thinking I was onto something, really it was thought ontop of thought... I can put that to bed now.

Yet as you saw in the Inner GPS exercise, the body just moves. And in the stream exercise, you saw that the body doesn't move independent of everything else. It is a part of a whole slew of conditions.

So... life moves.

Now...

Time for another round of reflection: What does it feel like to see this?

I want to say it feels exactly the same, normal. There's just this and no "everything else”, that seems obvious in a felt way. No person running the show. When that's said there's a glow in my chest and my body relaxes. Then there's the thought that I'm not getting it. There's an expectation or belief that at some point I'll see/realise "oneness" which will be this huge experience and life will look different and change for the better. As writing that it's good to see it on the page as it's clear to see it's just exactly that.. an expectation / a thought.

However it does seem that appearances can be more intimate with the letting go of Jose and I imagine blissful feeling can come with the relaxation and "letting go" that occurs with staying in DE.

And remember earlier you said:
It seems to be just be a thought/image that I have of myself that attention keeps going to. Like a self concious thought of how my body might be appearing from an outside perspective.

It was more that my attention shouldn't be drawn there so much.

How do you see this now?

I could maybe remove the words "I" and "myself" and "attention".. it's funny looking into these words.

There's an "I" and a ''myself'.

"It was more that my attention shouldn't be drawn there so much." This is a thought about a thought.

The problem was that there was a thought saying there is a problem.. and that created a loop. I feel like i'm onto something here, it's quite funny. When I read my original statement it could be read: “thought had a thought about thought”. It was just a thought.

When I look now theres still this self image thought. Which I think is just a thought and there's no problem with it appearing.

Maybe no thought is ever a problem ever, it’s just the next thought says either that’s good or that’s bad, then the body reacts then another thought...?

Sorry for the slew of comments. Something clicked when I re-read my original statement and it made me laugh when I realised what was going on, I still have a small voice saying “that’s not it” “you’re just regurgitating things you’ve read” or a sense of doubt or im not clear. But something definitely clicked so to speak

[okjose]

Just to condense that down a bit:

And remember earlier you said:
It seems to be just be a thought/image that I have of myself that attention keeps going to. Like a self concious thought of how my body might be appearing from an outside perspective.

It was more that my attention shouldn't be drawn there so much.

How do you see this now?

I see this now as a thought. Or a thought that went to another thought and so on. But the "I" thought in that statement was more believed (or the most personal feeling) and possibly still is. I'm not sure. But want to be.