Seeking a guide please

[mark43]

I realize I haven't done any smelling ones. I guess I'm not much of a smeller.

[filtah]

Ok Mark, no worries,
Here's the next excercise:

Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

[mark43]

Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

It definitely feels more right or more accurate the second time around to just go directly to what is being experienced.

What is here without labels?

There’s a lot there without labels. There’s the experience of being aware; ie - what’s there in the space between events arising and passing away.

Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

I did notice once that I first had the idea or thought that I was feeling the physical sensations of frustration and irritation as I was making numerous typos even though I wasn’t feeling any sensations. It’s like I was telling myself to feel frustrated even though I wasn’t. Obviously, these thoughts eventually brought on sensations of contraction and resistance.

Thanks

[mark43]

Did you notice any differences in the body?

No I did not.

[mark43]

Is it that my thoughts are the self I believe to be? Is that what you’re pointing me towards noticing?

Is it that I’m telling myself or “labelling” I feel bad and uncomfortable that is actually causing the discomfort?

Is it just a matter of seeing how I interpret things all the time? Is that the self that doesn’t exist?

[filtah]

Hi Mark.

It definitely feels more right or more accurate the second time around to just go directly to what is being experienced.

Great, glad you noticed this.

There’s a lot there without labels. There’s the experience of being aware; ie - what’s there in the space between events arising and passing away.

Yeah exactly, also just whatever is experienced by the senses.

I did notice once that I first had the idea or thought that I was feeling the physical sensations of frustration and irritation as I was making numerous typos even though I wasn’t feeling any sensations. It’s like I was telling myself to feel frustrated even though I wasn’t. Obviously, these thoughts eventually brought on sensations of contraction and resistance.

I think you misunderstood the question, but thats a good catch. it's all just thoughts making up stories about the experience. Thoughts make assumptions about how you feel, but thoughts can’t feel anything! its a load of lies!

The question asks if the given labels change the experience at all or only describe what is happening.
Look again.

No I did not.

Ok, it's quite subtle, but should be noticeable if you look closely, if you pay close attention to any sense of tightening or relaxing, particularly in the chest or gut.
You said:

it feels more right or more accurate the second time around

Where exactly, and what does this feel like? Sense into that.


OK, heres another exercise:

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN.

[mark43]

Hi Phil.

The question asks if the given labels change the experience at all or only describe what is happening.
Look again.

Hi Phil. I’m having a tough time understanding what you mean. Here is a sample from my lists:

Hear car
See foot
Feel itch
Hear him
Look at photo of salon
Think of salon lights
Hear something
Hear car
Feel itch
Feel itch

You’re asking if the labels I use (ie - car) are affecting the experience? I suppose I have a thought attached to each thing I hear, feel, see etc in terms of what I’m sensing. Is that what you mean or should I keep looking? Thanks.

[filtah]

Hi Mark,

Is it that my thoughts are the self I believe to be? Is that what you’re pointing me towards noticing?

Yes! This separate self is nothing but thoughts. There is no thinker, just thinking happening.
Knowing this won’t be much help, you have to LOOK for yourself to see this clearly enough.
Perhaps this is starting to dawn on you?

Is it that I’m telling myself or “labelling” I feel bad and uncomfortable that is actually causing the discomfort?

What is this discomfort without any label at all? Feel into that, go directly to the sensation - anything else is just a story about that. Don’t settle for any kind of interpretation.

Is it just a matter of seeing how I interpret things all the time? Is that the self that doesn’t exist?

It really comes down to not believing these thoughts. When you see there is no thinker, and just thoughts happening, it pulls the rug from under your feel so to speak and its like the thoughts can't be believed in the same way. They aren’t even a problem. But let me ask you this - are you trying to interpret this?

You’re asking if the labels I use (ie - car) are affecting the experience? I suppose I have a thought attached to each thing I hear, feel, see etc in terms of what I’m sensing. Is that what you mean or should I keep looking? Thanks.

Yes, there is a thought attached when labelling, but this thought doesn't change the actual experience of seeing right?
The thoughts come on top of the actual experience (seeing, sensing, hearing, smelling, tasting) they don't change it, right?

[mark43]

It really comes down to not believing these thoughts. When you see there is no thinker, and just thoughts happening, it pulls the rug from under your feel so to speak and its like the thoughts can't be believed in the same way. They aren’t even a problem. But let me ask you this - are you trying to interpret this?

But it seems there is a me that needs to exist in order to see the thoughts and not believe them. I realize this must be what I’m doing wrong or what I don’t understand correctly, but that’s where I’m at. I see the thoughts are affecting experience, but I can only see through them when I’m paying close attention; otherwise, when I’m on autopilot mode, the thoughts are always believed.

[mark43]

What I don’t understand when this site says there is no you, is what it means when you say not to believe the thoughts. If there is no me, then who or what is believing the thoughts?

I get that there is no thinker. When I was much younger, I experienced very strong anxiety that stemmed from having intrusive thoughts about hurting loved ones. Through therapy, I learned that these thoughts are not me, not something I create, and not something I can control or stop.

I still find thought that thoughts will definitely tell me how to interpret reality, and these thoughts are so much harder to notice and see. If I don’t notice the thoughts, I interpret reality filtered by them.

Is that because I still believe somewhere on some level that I am the thinker?

[mark43]

What is this discomfort without any label at all? Feel into that, go directly to the sensation - anything else is just a story about that. Don’t settle for any kind of interpretation.

Yes, I understand that, like I can go into any discomfort and get to a place where the thoughts stop labelling it as uncomfortable or painful. But my default mode is labelling and attaching negative values to the sensations. I’m interested in finding a way to stop doing that automatically. I mentioned earlier, things are fine when I’m present and can see thoughts for what they are. Thanks.

[filtah]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for your responses.
There’s a lot of questions here.
Respectfully though, this is not a discussion.
I can’t give you any satisfactory answers to these questions, I can only guide you to look for yourself.
We’re only interested in noticing thought “arising" vs the “content" of thought.

Think of this process like a game of "hot or cold”, you probably played this as a kid.

I can’t directly tell you what you are looking for, and you have to do the looking.
I can only point out when you are looking in the right direction or not, thats all.

I’m going to pull you back on track.

Did you do the Label-Reality Correlation exercise?
It’s helpful, please post your answers to the questions.

[mark43]

Thanks Phil.

Sorry, I’ve been doing the previous activity still…

Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

I’m not sure I’ve noticed labels affecting experience during this activity, but I’ve definitely noticed this when trying to be mindful. This has happened mostly with physical sensations. I’ve often wondered what it is about them that cause me to write them off as negative or unwanted. I’ve recognized there to be an interpretation that comes soon after any sensation that tells me this experience is negative. Am I on the right track here?

Did you notice any differences in the body?

I’m definitely starting to sense the perspective that gets produced when using “I”. It definitely seems to cause a feeling that I’m looking at what’s happening from a certain vantage point. When not using “I”, this vantage point seems to disappear.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

I don’t notice any actual experience other than seeing the letters on the screen.

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

No they are just labels. There is no experience there that I can detect.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

No, the label doesn’t correspond with reality. It points to a thought or understanding. Note: I’m assuming the word “red” in parentheses was a typo?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

Here I’m confused by the use of different colours. Is this intentional or a typo?

If intentional, no ‘green’ is not associated with the experience of the colour red. Green is not a label that overlays the experience of red.

If a typo, no, ‘green’ cannot be said to be associated at all with experience of green. Is is merely a label that overlays the experience.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Sorry, which redness? I don’t follow here. Do you mean does “redness” ever carry a positive or negative connotation in general?

Let me know what is SEEN.

When I see green or red? I see the colour. I don’t see the label unless I label it.

[filtah]

Hi Mark.

I’m not sure I’ve noticed labels affecting experience during this activity

Good one, thats what i’m pointing to.
If you see a car and label it ‘potato’ the car doesn't transform into a potato, right?!
The experience is already as it is, the label just comes on top, as an added layer to that experience, right?

I’m definitely starting to sense the perspective that gets produced when using “I”. It definitely seems to cause a feeling that I’m looking at what’s happening from a certain vantage point. When not using “I”, this vantage point seems to disappear.

Good catch. Does this vantage point have a physical location in the body someplace? what does it feel like?

I don’t notice any actual experience other than seeing the letters on the screen.

No worries, I missed this one too, you’ll laugh when you see it!
There is no typo. What colour is the word 'GREEN' ???

Maybe the questions will make more sense now?

You’re doing good Mark.
This is just all really simple looking at what is there.
The mind always tries to make this much more complicated than it really is!

[filtah]

I just had a thought - you're not colour blind are you? this would explain why you missed it I guess :)
Let me know and we can try a different colour if so!