Ready to dive in...

[vinceschubert]

the compulsive quality of the thoughts suggest that this too is driven by fear

How do you actually experience this fear ?

i feel like it means running through the world buck naked with the wind in my hair, ..., but is not an image that feels compatible (at all) with a household and a relationship and a job.

This fear is often expressed by seekers. i have posted this statement on a post gate forum. Let's see what some liberated say about this.
In the meantime, a response here is that anything can happen, i know of a person who changed her job because she lost all tolerance for the bullshit that went with it, and of others who welcomed the same situation as a great facility for deepening. Incidents of synchronicity seems to increase and unpleasant situations seem to have immediate alternatives.
Remember, everybody only sees their own (version of the) world. Nobody sees you, only their image of you. Nobody in my world can see the world i walk in.

to drop any allegiance to the stories feels like jumping out of an airplane ...

The more that you think about it, the less inclined you will be to jump. In the end, the only way you will jump is to toughen up and just do it.

[vinceschubert]

Vince Schubert
a seeker said of liberation, that it " is not an image that feels compatible (at all) with a household and a relationship and a job."

Lol !!! Tell them to come speak to me. I have a job, husband ,kids, etc ,etc,etc ! What they really mean is, if I'm not in control how can anything happen or get done ; ) Gotta love it.

I also noticed this fear in my experience. It revealed so many beliefs that were being held onto. In my situation the experience of relationship has been and continues to be one of meeting this fear and resistance. It is a great gift. I am constantly reflected beliefs that i am projecting that cause suffering.

It's like the liberation instantly reveals this concern/fear and leaves little room for self-deception. What can you do? It's been revealed!

Between the lines, the feeling is "this isn't compatible with maintaining my view of the world (ie. job, partner etc)." And that would be correct. :) Give them a house point.

Liberation is not an image at all. It's simply being able to be with whatever is in the moment without judgement. (P.S. I too have a job, wife and kids. Wouldn't want it any other way).

Somehow the edges between household, relationship and job burr and swirl together. Awareness no longer experiences them as separate from what it is. Its like stepping into an ever emerging river for the first time.............I just lost my self in these words.................

Liberation is a threat for an image. Somehow the image wants to stay real. And Yey, it is a real image!

Somehow the brain manages to fool itself.........Isn't that a heck of a howd you do?.....LOL

There was a time when I struggled to escape the self. These days it is a struggle to remember what it was like being one.

A huge weight seem lifted from my shoulders - the urge to change, the obsession to help, the hunt for fullfillment. Now watching life unfolding without a me being busy to control, plan and prepare.
As the burden of self lifts, awareness feels light and airy. No longer is it tethered to the dream of separation. Perhaps the mind created angels to explain this joy.

[ixturtle]

How do you actually experience this fear ?

Nervousness/agitation in the body accompanied by a deluge of thinking, especially in the wee hours of the morning. There are lots of activities that can interrupt the fear-- being out in the woods, laughing with others, getting absorbed in a creative project-- but there is a willingness to lean in to what's here recently, and as such the mental pattern seems to have gotten stronger and more relentless. At the same time, there are tiny gaps, moments when it's seen as the mind's conditioning.

Liberation is ... simply being able to be with whatever is in the moment without judgement.

So simple and yet the conditioned responses come barreling through. The necessary first shift seems to be to welcome the conditioned response, rather than reject it. Sometime i can catch it, other times the force is too strong. Like you've said before though, even seeing it after the fact is seeing it.

the only way you will jump is to toughen up and just do it.

OK... but to "do it" means what, especially when there's no "doing"?

My "sense" is jumping means full complete abandonment of "thought" as "savior" -- not to drop thinking as a useful tool of course, but to drop any allegiance to it as "truth." Instead, devote allegiance to what's here now-- typing, sitting, hearing, breathing. Thought arises, "what about dropping "self" too? isn't that what this is all about? but that kind of jumping seems more elusive...how to do? how to "do"?". But maybe the too are the same anyway?

[vinceschubert]

Picture this; you are in that plane, you know that you are going to jump because the plane can't land as it has no pilot (he already jumped). You look at the land below, way below like a miniature model. You feel scared. Your knuckles are white from gripping the strut near the door. Your body is flooded with adrenalin. It is like you are in a nightmare. It's surreal. There are tiny glimpses of the inevitability of your launch out into free fall, just fractions of a second before mind screams that you will die if you jump and the grip tightens. You grit your teeth and edge a little further out, only to withdraw back in as fear elicits a torrent of mental gymnastics.
The engine splutters and you realise that the plane won't fly horizontally for much longer as the fuel is about to run out. There is a thankfulness that lasts a split second as you realise that there will be a release very soon. The decision is taken from you, well not really, you still have to jump, but you know that it is now inevitable.
A calmness descends over you. A switch has been thrown. The mind is quiet. The adrenalin is still there but now it is perceived as strength, not panic. There is a knowing in you that within the next couple of seconds you will launch your body through the door and accept whatever occurs. A knowing that there is no alternative and as such there is no choice. It will be done.
You lean forward and push off with your feet. Push hard into clear air with a clear knowing that whatever happens it is out of your hands. It is just happening. You find yourself smiling at the simplicity of it. There never was any choice, so why all of the fear and panic ?, and you realise that all of that was just conditioning, it was what was expected of you under the circumstances.
As these ruminations occur, it slowly dawns on you that there is no sound of wind and you realise that you have your eyes tightly shut, a remnant of the fear that has now vanished.
Puzzled you open your eyes and gasp in wonder. You are sitting on the floor in your living room at home.
How did you get here ? It's like you are still in a dream and the whole thing was so real. It was like a dream within a dream. You look around you, checking to see if this is a dream and realise that there is no way to know.
Everything seems normal, but then it is different. There is an aliveness to everything that wasn't there before. Even the air seems alive. It offers itself to you to breathe. The furniture seems to be speaking to you. You shake your head to try and make things 'normal' again, but half a shake in and you stop with the recognition that this is how it always was and you just didn't See it because your mind had you running in circles trying to satisfy some story of normal.
You take a deep breath and yes, the air feels alive even inside your lungs and it's as if you can sense it moving into your blood stream.
The thought arises that if this is a dream then you don't want to wake up and then seemingly of its' own accord a laugh come from deep inside as you recognise that everything was always a dream.
Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.

love to you ix

[ixturtle]

Hmmmm... this is helpful in one way, but still leaves me wondering what's what. perhaps my plane isn't sufficiently crashing yet? seems if it were, i would know what "jumping" meant.

[vinceschubert]

i would know what "jumping" meant.

Meaning matters only to mind. Jumping is before mind. It can't be understood. Thought can only organize (give meaning to) what it can label. Jumping has no label, so mind simply cannot comprehend.
Jumping is done with the heart, not the head.
Remember, it is a discovery, a recognition. The patterns match.
A bit like one of those pictures that seem only dots or patterns until you relax your focus and suddenly there is a shark or a horse, and in 3d. (here's one http://www.3dstereograms.com/view/138-Grasshoppers.html)
You just look and wait. Then, there it is...

[ixturtle]

Meaning matters only to mind. Jumping is before mind. It can't be understood.

This is good-- because whenever I think about jumping, this brain is a total fog. As for the pictures-- excellent analogy as i can usually see the picture shift into 3D but i never quite see the image pop out... ha ha ha...

Have had lots of opportunities to see the mind lean lately, which I guess is a good thing.

Blessings,
ix

[vinceschubert]

Have had lots of opportunities to see the mind lean lately, which I guess is a good thing.

good stuff. It's seeing the process that is a key to all of this.

love
vince

[ixturtle]

It's seeing the process that is a key to all of this.

How would you define "the process" here?

[vinceschubert]

define "the process"

The process would go something like this;
step 1. a situation arises. (the situation can be stimulated by thoughts or an actual physical situation, but is always followed by beliefs (opinions))
step 2. a story is created, which often includes past experiences and stories and occasionally may include something new. If an old story can be overlaid on the current situation, it is easier and less effort, so that is preferable.
step 3. Reaction to the story occurs.
step 4. the reaction is taken as confirmation of the accuracy of the story.
step 5. the story is strengthened by step 4.
step 6. same as step 4.
step 7. same as step5.
step 8. Now we have a recursive loop that feed itself and the original situation can disappear but the process continues.....

[ixturtle]

step 8. Now we have a recursive loop that feed itself and the original situation can disappear but the process continues.....

ah yes... rather familiar.

while mind acknowledges steps 2-8, it is still claiming that there is at least something to "handle" from the latest "situation" (eg., step 1). is this just trickery? if someone steps on your toes, you can acknowledge all the mind's spinning around the incident, but it still seems like it might be worthwhile to say, "hey, that hurts...please don't step on my toes." or does this just confirm the story of self somehow?

also, i trust that this path is non-linear, but there was a sense of being close to the airplane door a month ago, and now there's a sense of being in the back of the plane. i suppose all there is is "noticing what's here", including the thoughts (minus the content). no self. no plane. still...

[vinceschubert]

it is still claiming that there is at least something to "handle" from the latest "situation"

Surely you can see that whatever the "something" is, comes from story.
Your example of stepping on toes; in English culture the person who gets stepped on is the one who says sorry. (heard that on tv last night) Different story, different response.
Back of the plane is ok, just keep an eye on the door (keep posting) There is nothing static in life-ing.
A great question that Mooji asked is "is the future more attractive than now ?"

[vinceschubert]

it still seems like it might be worthwhile to say, "hey, that hurts...please don't step on my toes."

Yes, that seems to be a smart thing to say.
There are still preferences in the mind/body organism, and one of those is to avoid discomfort.
There is no opinion or judgement, just response at an experiential level. No story attached.

[ixturtle]

no way! it happened again... something went amok with my submit button, and this time i actually remember "submitting." sigh... as is, what is.

there were some thoughts on mooji's questions, which i appreciated, and some questions around a more hypothetical, less physical "toe." too tired to write it all again, so i will let writing it once (and apparently sending it to oblivion) be enough.

goodnight!
--ix.

[vinceschubert]

Perhaps before submitting it go ctrl a (select all) then ctrl c (copy) and it if disappears you can ctrl v (paste)
goodnight ix