Simple not Simple

[vinceschubert]

If thoughts are delusional then what is real .If feelings are delusions what is real.

Nothing is real. There is no such thing as reality.
Oh well, there is consensus reality. If it's believed to be actual, then it is delusional.
Once it is seen to be an agreed upon story of 'reality', then it is only illusional. At least until responses catch up with what is seen to be actual. (nothing)
We might be able to label our current experiencing as actual (aka real) but that can only be concept.

I tend to wake up and I am already engaged in thought,usually fear based or needing to know something based, then the false doer thoughts

This is reincarnation happening.

.Today I awoke in the gap and sort of saw the engaged thoughts approaching in a cluster and a sensation like a lead ball in my chest. I was glad to have this insight

Yes, yes, excellent insight. A very significant 'step' closer to dropping identity completely.

then when fully awake I was in a rabbit hole but came out of it after some looking

Good, good. Ah, this will happen quicker and quicker. ..and one day (soon) you will see it about to happen and it will abort.

nder is the only option.Resistance is futile…

Absolutely. ..but just being pedantic here; it's not an option. Well not as in a choice.
It's actually the only sane possibility, as anything else can only corrupt.
i get the "uncle" thing. That surrender is a giving up. That is good for the entry into surrender. surrendering will evolve into a willing, welcoming, inviting, embracing, intimate acceptance.

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince

Once it is seen to be an agreed upon story of 'reality', then it is only illusional. At least until responses catch up with what is seen to be actual. (nothing)

Not sure this is computing.....We see the story we are indentifying with and see that the stories are mind constructed illusions,and are not the actual,then responses eventually catch up to the actual,and we see the actual has no-thingness?

This is reincarnation happening.

So reincarnation in this sense is : the stories continue upon waking up after deep sleep(death) and can be described as reincarnation of beliefs and concepts?

That surrender is a giving up. That is good for the entry into surrender. surrendering will evolve into a willing, welcoming, inviting, embracing, intimate acceptance.

yes yes and not to be confused with the belief that there is a giving up because who is giving up and what is being given up? Who owns anything that is being given back or given up?How can you sacrifice something that isn't owned by a you?A story that is an illusion? A response that is creating actuallity from nothing? There is gratitude also .There are still plenty of behaviours and responses but they have started to appear as secondary or even moot.

Thank you


love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

'evening Judi,

Not sure this is computing.....

Hmm, ok, before waking up we take much to be actual that is actually concept. While this is happening, we are deluded.
After waking up (in the beginning) we recognize the existence of (previous) delusion. ..but it still seems that everything still happens the way it did, but now we know that it only seems to be that way. The old conditioning persists (probably weaker and less frequently)
Then responses change from the old way to a new way. Now it no longer seems to be the old way. We no longer need to remind ourselves that the other is a projection of ourselves. We start to automatically behave as if this is the actual.
Then we stop being the projector or the projected upon. We are the projecting, but know this to be a story too.
There is nothing/nobody projecting nothing onto nobody. THIS ceases to have words adequate to describe it.
(i have to say that i have had only minuscule glimpses of this)
It's just a story...

So reincarnation in this sense is : the stories continue upon waking up after deep sleep(death) and can be described as reincarnation of beliefs and concepts?

Yes, and those beliefs and concepts are what the self is made of. So, identification happens.
...and didn't the Buddha say something about a "non returner"?

yes yes and not to be confused with the belief that there is a giving up because who is giving up and what is being given up? Who owns anything that is being given back or given up?How can you sacrifice something that isn't owned by a you?A story that is an illusion? A response that is creating actuallity from nothing? There is gratitude also .There are still plenty of behaviours and responses but they have started to appear as secondary or even moot.

Beautiful..

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince,

Then we stop being the projector or the projected upon. We are the projecting, but know this to be a story too.
There is nothing/nobody projecting nothing onto nobody. THIS ceases to have words adequate to describe it.
(i have to say that i have had only minuscule glimpses of this)
It's just a story...

Yes I suppose that thought/mind has to finally realize or surrender the belief that thought can understand or describe what is.If we take for granted that duality is the truth,without questioning this belief,we only create conflict.The "value" is in the questions not in the answers.There are no answers.Any answer is a concept.Being sure of anything breeds doubt and other agitations

Thank you

love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Judi, you nailed it in this post.
i agree that the 'vlaue' is in the question (which is also a concept)

Being sure of anything breeds doubt and other agitations

Yes, totally. Of course doubt also exists in not being sure about anything.
So what is left?

.If we take for granted that duality is the truth,without questioning this belief,we only create conflict.

Also true. If we take anything as truth, does this mean that not true also exists?
i'd like to confirm with you that you see that any description of anything is neither truth nor not truth. That they are always concepts.
That THIS is beyond description or explanation.

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hello Vince,

Yes, totally. Of course doubt also exists in not being sure about anything.
So what is left?

What is left is that doubt is just another thought regardless of surety or not.Doubts appear before fetter 1 and after but we tend to be more aware of them after and we engage with them again as if they were “truth” Doubts are just thoughts like any other thought.

i'd like to confirm with you that you see that any description of anything is neither truth nor not truth. That they are always concepts.
That THIS is beyond description or explanation.

Yes I can fully confirm this.

Thank you

love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Hi Judi, it seems to me that there is no end to this 'journey'. it also seems to me that you are well and truly established on this path.
i imagine that you are confidently clear that there is no separate, inherently independent self running the show.
i also imagine that doubts aren't currently active.
i don't know if you currently ascribe to any rites and rituals. This one is more subtle, but can be seen if any activity is done to achieve an outcome that is future oriented and has the purpose of securing meaning for Judi.

Please address each of these..

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

hi Vince,

i imagine that you are confidently clear that there is no separate, inherently independent self running the show.

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince,

Sorry the wrong button got clicked on the previous post.

I imagine that you are confidently clear that there is no separate, inherently independent self running the show.

There is clarity that there is no seperate,inherently independent self running the show.

i also imagine that doubts aren't currently active.

Doubts type thoughts still appear when thoughts arise sometimes,just as certain body sensations appear sometimes along with or after the thoughts .These thoughts/sensations are allowed and they come and go.These body sensations can be what would be called intense but they are welcomed.Also there are still all kinds of thoughts still arising and disappearing and are seen as thought stuff for lack of a better word.

i don't know if you currently ascribe to any rites and rituals. This one is more subtle, but can be seen if any activity is done to achieve an outcome that is future oriented and has the purpose of securing meaning for Judi.

I am not entirely clear what you mean by rites and rituals.Do you mean a habitual attempt at manipulating outcomes and securing meaning and certainty for an ascribed person known as Judi? If that is what is meant by rites and rituals then there aren't any prescribed actions or plans to secure any outcome.I do have to sometimes set aside time when strong body sensations start to occur, if that is considered a ritual?


Thank you

love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Hi Judi,

Also there are still all kinds of thoughts still arising and disappearing and are seen as thought stuff for lack of a better word.

All good. Seeing the thoughts as thoughts is good. You won't get sucked down a rabbit hole while this happens.

I do have to sometimes set aside time when strong body sensations start to occur, if that is considered a ritual?

I don't think it is. Is it to reinforce a sense of identity? It would be considered a ritual if it was and was done in the same way (obsessively) each time.
It doesn't sound like it to me.
Do you 'get it' that a feeling is a sensation plus a story?
For example, a feeling of hunger is a sensation plus a story that eating will relieve the sensation.
Are you able to separate the sensation from the stories? Try it the next time you identify a feeling.

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince,
Judi:I do have to sometimes set aside time when strong body sensations start to occur, if that is considered a ritual?

Is it to reinforce a sense of identity?

No if anything it lessens any sense of identity

Do you 'get it' that a feeling is a sensation plus a story?

yes thats is definite.Depending of the "depth" of what can be called an " unconcious " belief, the "stonger" a sensation appears to be,the body' responds with what can only be described as self-releasing of the holding on ness.

Are you able to separate the sensation from the stories?

Yes ...as some thought /beliefs are hidden,in other words the thought /story arises in a stealthy way,isn't noticed in a sense,the body then has sensations,the sensations arise without any resistance and release on their own and then the story/thought/belief is seen after. At other times the thought is seen and the sensations arise and release on their own also.


Thank you


love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Judi, Ok, i think that you are ready for the (so called) final questions.
Remember that LU is mainly interested in the first 3 fetters, so answer the questions from that perspective.
Here they are. Take your time and answer them from memory of recent experiencing.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Describe how the illusion of an independent self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How do they work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

b) What are you responsible for?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

A separate identity could be called a "root" thought.There is no “evidence”that separation exists.How could there ever really have been a separate self? The process is “part” of what is.Belief in a separate self is what is , seeing this , as a belief is “more” of what is.Looking at thought or sensations to confirm anything is what is.Resistance is what is.There is no-thing ,no separate self controlling this

2) Describe how the illusion of an independent self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

Experience of seeing the mechanics of the illusion: When agitation or restlessness appears, when examined ,there is thought and sensations, when sensations are observed, there appears the thought that the body is in contraction, when sensation is “accepted” the body “releases”.Then there is openness.On observation through senses there is constant change, there is still thoughts appearing, actions being taken but this is seen as just what is and there is not a drive to change this or control.A near accident the other day: Going up my drive, a car came from the right,"I" didn't see the car,yet the foot was put on the brake without thought and the car from the right missed my car by inches.Actions are not driven by a personal self that is controlling what "it" does.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It is sort of like there is no one seeing this but there appears to be seeing.No one thinking but thoughts appearing.The difference before starting this dialogue is : the drive to reply or defend is not really there.There is observation of thoughts/feelings that appear that can demand this but that's ok.One could then say that then ,the "correct" response happens.A constant drive to know the future and to know the correct actions to take to maipulate a separate self into this future has been seen through,although this pattern still appears that's ok too.

4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it ?

ha another car moment… one was when driving in a car I guess about 5 years ago.I was listening to a recording of someone reading the Nisargadatta pointers.It wasn't till after the "experience" that there was any thought like..I got it or I have seen it.The experience is basically not describable other than every thing was hilarious and every movement of the body was just happening and this was hilarious too.Complete wonder and awestruckness for lack of better words.No self doing anything , no one driving the car..I don't recall any thoughts at the time as these comments are all in hind sight one of these thoughts being "this is not permanent".Another is I was watching a movie a few months ago and I started sobbing and a massive wave of sorrow arrived,I asked what is this? And again no recollection of a thought appeared just overwhelmimg joy and peace and laughing.Complete freedom. but I don't recall ever having the thought of I got this... more like I see this or feel this.It's hard to pinpoint regarding an enquiry as the seeing can happen long after the question or right away.More like the process of osmosis,meaning in this context as an unconscious process of assimilation.So I can't really say any specific enquiry ...oh the cup excercise was good,complete change of external apperances.I have had many experiences of changes in external apperances "through"sight and sound and body sensations.Stillness under apparent movingness.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How do they work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

Decisions are concepts that there is someone there making a decision,intention appears to be concept/sensations ...A feeling... Free will is another concept of taking ownership for actions.I don't decide what will happen or not happen.There is only thought constructing predictive outcomes for survival.The body mind refers to the past and then constucts different "predictive" outcomes that may or may not keep the body alive/comfortable.It seems mechanical.I don't know what makes things happen.I don't know how anything works..From experience?.The knowing -ness doesn't seem to come from a me .When a thought appears that has no questions after and action is taken immediately it feels "right'.If there are lots of thoughts ,hesitations or plans then the thoughts seem to be coming from the mechanical predictive survival mode construct and are best not acted upon....actions and responses also seem to happen without any me-ness doing the action.It's in hindsight that this is seen.One example: A thought aries ..."leave the waiting room at the train station and go to the platform"...,the train then arrives 1 minute after I get to the platform,I get on the train.The original "intention " when arriving at the train station was ,go to the waiting room and wait 20 minutes and then go to the platform as the train is arriving in 25 minutes.if I had stuck to the original intention I would have missed the train.Not that that would have mattered that much but just an example.

b) What are you responsible for?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

The concept of responsibility goes hand in hand with blame … just creating more rabbit holes.If a doing action is required I do it . Sometimes if I don’t want to do something what needs doing gets resolved without having to do anything and sometimes it doesn’t and an action is taken or not. I do what’s in front of me . In other words I don’t feel obligated to feed my cat if she asks for food and there isn’t any in the house. I go get it and feed her. I don’t feel obligated to help someone who asks for help if I am able to do so.There are still thoughts that will arise and actions that arise that can appear as taking responsibility.

6) Anything to add?

There is so much love and compassion on this forum. I appreciate your openness and welcoming nature Vince.The words I used are not able to say anything ….and yet words are still used and that’s ok.. This is not a learning process but an unlearning process …there isn’t really any” thing”

Thank you

love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Hi Judi, other guides have looked at your posts and have no doubts that you have passed the 'gate'.
You're forum name will be turned blue and you will be invited to some facebook groups where further discussion may happen.
You can also guide (highly recommended) if this appeals to you.
i hope that we will continue to see you at the zoom meetups and you can contact me at any time by PM.
Of course, you know that this is just a beginning.

with much love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince,

I would very much like to guide if possible, as your guidance contained so much gratitude and love …Yes the Sunday Zooms are like a big comfy rubber raft floating in the ocean with “others”, chatting away and silent.
Thank you

Much love

Judi