Flying

[Aguila]

Hi Jon,

Well, the good thing is that it's noticed and whilst there's judgement and judgement of judgement, there is also no judgement . This is not something that a "doer" has to "do" in order to change things.

Yes. And not having to do something, is a very uncommon thought. I am getting used to it. But again: “I” cannot even do that…

The tingling may be experienced but "signaling it's existence" is an interpretation or thought. The "hand" appears as a thought. Tingling is only tingling.

Again. Of course you are right. Even if I “feel the fingers” with the eyes shut, looking closer there is only the tingling and the cool air in some places that brings up the name/thought finger.

All the best
Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hi Aguila

It can take some time to move from occasionally seeing that there is no "doer" that "makes things happen" to (more or less) forgetting to have to bother about it. There doesn't seem to be any fixed standard or rule about how long that takes.

But the exploring you have been doing recently has been about this issue of who or what makes things happen.

Is it clear that there is no fixed entity or self , separate from everything , that lives inside a body and makes things happen ?

Jon

[Aguila]

Hi Jon,

It can take some time to move from occasionally seeing that there is no "doer" that "makes things happen" to (more or less) forgetting to have to bother about it. There doesn't seem to be any fixed standard or rule about how long that takes.

Thanks, that helps.

But the exploring you have been doing recently has been about this issue of who or what makes things happen.

Is it clear that there is no fixed entity or self , separate from everything , that lives inside a body and makes things happen ?

Uhm. Not sure where you are going with that question. Short answer: it is clear.
I believe (but please correct me!) that I keep bringing up “I” in quotes, because I keep using the concept (and I guess I will always do). Especially when I write here I try to tap into what I mean by it. When I write something like “‘I’ cannot even do that…” it is not because I am searching for the doer. At least not extensively, maybe shortly, just to convince myself once again and to feel (look into? realize?) the origin of it (life). But mostly with such a statement I am acknowledging that nobody is doing something but it just happens.
Not sure if that makes sense and answers your question?
And of course, if you have the feeling I am not being honest to myself at some point, I would really appreciate any hint you can give me!

All the best
Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hi Aguila

. Short answer: it is clear.
I believe (but please correct me!) that I keep bringing up “I” in quotes, because I keep using the concept (and I guess I will always do). Especially when I write here I try to tap into what I mean by it. When I write something like “‘I’ cannot even do that…” it is not because I am searching for the doer. At least not extensively, maybe shortly, just to convince myself once again and to feel (look into? realize?) the origin of it (life). But mostly with such a statement I am acknowledging that nobody is doing something but it just happens.
Not sure if that makes sense and answers your question?

Yes it does. Very nicely. Thank you.

. And of course, if you have the feeling I am not being honest to myself at some point, I would really appreciate any hint you can give me!

No I do not feel that. It's all good.

To be honest with you it is probably time for me to ask you some final questions. There are six of these and one or two of them are quite involved.

Are you happy for me to go ahead and ask these? If anything needs clarifying or further investigation these questions could reveal it.

Love

Jon

[Aguila]

Hi Jon,

Of course, go ahead!

Take care
Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hi again,

Ok,well, here goes ;

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for?

6) Anything to add?


(Giving examples from experience may seem like an odd request but your attempt to do so can be very helpful.,)

Feel free to answer these questions two, or three at a time. You do t have to tackle them all at once.

All the best

Jon

[Aguila]

Hi Jon,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. It is a thought. And never was something else. Not sure how to elaborate on that. There was always just a flow of events.
Though it still feels a bit strange to acknowledge it this way. Unusual. Astonishing.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

That is tough. Let’s see.
It starts with a thought, triggered by a perception or from out of the blue. If it starts from a perception there is usually some naming involved, some categorizing: thoughts. This happens from the perspective of the entity “I”. This triggers more thoughts, usually there is the impulse (another thought) to do something about it. Same thing if it starts with a thought just popping up: thoughts multiply like in a chain reaction and they pretty much all reference to “I”. “I” is the measure of everything, the point of reference, the seemingly "active ingredient".
Mmh. I will maybe pick that up again tomorrow, I am not getting very far now.

All the best
Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hi Aguila

. Mmh. I will maybe pick that up again tomorrow, I am not getting very far now.

You're doing well. You're reporting from what's seen so that's great.

All the best

Jon .

[Aguila]

Hi Jon,

here is the continuation:

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

...
For example, today there was pain in the head when I woke up. First (conscious) thought: “I have a headache” - the “I”-thought takes ownership, separation starts. Next thing is a whole firework of thoughts ranging from “what can I do about it” to “what did I do yesterday - oh, maybe the wine!” to “well, maybe it will just disappear and I will have a good day anyhow”.
Or a thought pops up without an apparent trigger: “I need to call xy.” And a train of thoughts start “she will be angry, if I don’t”, “but I don’t feel like it”, etc.
To be honest here I feel a bit wobbly. It feels a bit theoretical when I am trying now to describe what happens beyond the thoughts. There is an urge to call, balanced by a “restraining” urge not to call, which ends up in a temporary deadlock. No separation on that level, I would say - but then on top come thoughts judging this: “I should make up my mind!!”, or of course “xy should not put ME in this situation!!”. Well, now that I have written it, it does not feel theoretical. 🙂 Too analytical?
I really do not know where I am and where I am going - but that is ok, it is exciting and interesting anyway. Or maybe because of that. ;-)
All the best
Aguila

[Aguila]

And another piece:

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Again I find it hard to say. There is no big emotion in this regard. A general greater calmness, maybe. There is a lot going on in my life so it is difficult to pinpoint what is related to our dialogue - though I am really surprised how relatively smoothly things are going.
In a way I am almost wondering were the strong emotions went, even the positive ones.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I would say it was more of a gradual development with several experiences that opened new views. The hand-on-table exercise and the white-cup-question come to mind as wow-moments.

All the best
Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hello Aguila

Keep it coming! This is all good. I dont feel like stopping you to discuss anything. Once you have tackled all the questions we can take a look at what you have said.

Generally it's best to stick very close to direct experience in answering and not speculate too much . You're doing great

All the best

Jon

[Aguila]

Hi Jon,
another one:

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Biiig topic for me historically…
A decision needs to happen when there are options - and it happens constantly without it being noticed most of the times. Fortunately there is no thought “shall I breath in now? Or maybe now?”. What a relief! :-)
Mostly I refer to decisions which are conscious with thoughts involved. And “I” still get intangled there. The example I used above: “shall I call xyz?” is typical. There is some churning in the stomach at the time of actually proceeding (or not) with the calling, with a lot of thoughts rushing in without much sense or order. Sometimes even a feeling of desperation rises (well that’s also a thought, the perception is just a constriction in the throat/chest) with an on top thought of “OMG, every decision has its downsides! But I want to get this right!”. And at the end of this whole (brain)whirlwind of events, calling just happens or not, I do not see anybody deciding, when looking closer. And I see this whole whirlwind more clearly than be before and it is smaller.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Intentions are a funny thing I am kind of discovering anew. Traditionally my observations was that either there is from the very beginning “energy” behind an intention or not, so that it happens or not. It did not make any sense to me to set intentions, because things seemingly happened or not independent of intentions. Intentions really looked (and still look) like thoughts, where “I” wanted to make things happen: do the dishes, exercise, focus on the breath.
Having said that: I am experimenting with intentions in the sense that I try to feel where the impulses are, what fells important, what is maybe flowing. And see the thoughts around it as thoughts.
So: still working on it?

All the best
Aquila

[Aguila]

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

I really try hard to talk from (sensorial) experience and not speculate - not easy.
Free will I would define roughly as “doing whatever I want” and I see it closely related to decision and choice: there are options and “I” get to decide and choose. Having said that: there are a lot of thoughts about what “I” want to do or not, but on a bodily level there is either a more or less obvious urge to do something - a painful, growling stomach probably will trigger some cooking. Which probably you would not call free will. Lots of thoughts may occur “it is too early” or “later you go out to dinner” and they may be related to other sensations. But in the end again: eating just happens sooner or later.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Choice for me is pretty much the same as decision.
But focusing just on sensations there are no choices, everything just pushes into a direction. Or another. Or nothing moves. Or it keeps changing direction. The concept “choice” and the handling of it, is a set of thoughts. A choice of chocolate or vanilla ice cream - one of that will induce stronger salivation, e. g. A very bodily reaction. Having to choose a job will induce more complex bodily sensations like lightness in the chest or constriction.

[Aguila]

Hi Jon,
the final questions:

Describe control & give examples from experience.

I think this is driving me crazy, to try to describe things that do not work. Feels like wading in chewing gum.
Ok, control. Deciding and moving things as I wish. Obviously the same as with the other concepts: all thoughts, no entity to be found exerting this control. I can find thoughts about how things should be and what should be done - and then somehow it happens. Or not.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

Do not know what to answer. It happens. I would assume it is the million things coming together. I know, speculation - but my senses do not tell me anything about the how.
What are you responsible for?
Again - I don’t really know what to say. Responsibility is a concept, a thought. In the realm of “I” there would be a lot to say in terms of spirituality, society, etc. but beyond that???

6) Anything to add?

This feels like one of the “worst exams” I ever had to pass. ;-)
I feel so lost. Or in knots?

All the best
Aguila

[JonathanR]

No Aguila

Youve done brilliantly!

As you've been saying, it's hard to describe things that don't work (or don't happen).

You've given answers to the questions. We can look at any of your answers that you feel are confused or confusing. I will look through them and pick out anything that seems tangled and we can look at it.

As a general note, these questions are best answered from direct experience and not by much reasoning or conceptualisation.

Let me know if there were any questions that felt particularly knotty.

All the best

Jon