Flying

[Aguila]

Hi Jon,

I have been reading through the thread - really interesting how things change. At one place I got stuck again: If “I” am not responsible for my current status, achievements and failures - is it all sheer (good or bad) luck? OMG, I am at the mercy of fate, a product of circumstances? That IS frightening. And I always have been? That would mean all the efforts, all the struggles were totally useless? And nothing can be done about securing anything? It might be gone with a blink?
It is a different anxiety than the one of potential doom we talked about before.
On the other hand there is this rather overwhelming thought: life is a continuous miracle, if it is “just” life taking care of this unique life form - then an unmeasurable amount of gratefulness would be most appropriate.
Mmh. Why am I writing conditionally? Don’t I feel that? Maybe I cannot handle that, really too overwhelming?

All the best
Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hello Aguila

. just to share todays "event": Listening to a colleague I felt irritation rise. Yes, thoughts were associated, but I didn't want to bother to look closer at them. And without really trying, suddenly voice, words, content, thoughts seemed to be separate entities or streams just floating by. I have to admit I enjoyed it. :-)

Very nice

All of this is worth noticing. I'm not even asking you to look at anything in particular but things seem very interesting.

All the best

Jon

[Aguila]

Hi Jon,

today I was focusing on the sensations of the outbreath: I was surprised about how "silent" it felt, how different the senstations were compared to the inbreath. A whole world in the nose. :-)

All the best
Aguila

[Aguila]

Hi Jon,
it is funny how selective or arbitrary thoughts are:

If “I” am not responsible for my current status, achievements and failures - is it all sheer (good or bad) luck? OMG, I am at the mercy of fate, a product of circumstances? That IS frightening. And I always have been? That would mean all the efforts, all the struggles were totally useless? And nothing can be done about securing anything? It might be gone with a blink?
It is a different anxiety than the one of potential doom we talked about before.

Today the breath felt so reliable (even though somewhat irregular!) and detached from "me" and there was the realization (once again), that it just happens and that life takes care of itself. Yes, everything might change with a blink - but this body (and mind and environment...) has been pretty well equipped with resources to survive this far already.
Breath comes and goes - nice. :-)

Have a good day
Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hello Aguila,

I'm taking your last few posts together as they do relate to each other closely.

I have been reading through the thread - really interesting how things change. At one place I got stuck again: If “I” am not responsible for my current status, achievements and failures - is it all sheer (good or bad) luck? OMG, I am at the mercy of fate, a product of circumstances? That IS frightening. And I always have been? That would mean all the efforts, all the struggles were totally useless? And nothing can be done about securing anything? It might be gone with a blink?
It is a different anxiety than the one of potential doom we talked about before.
On the other hand there is this rather overwhelming thought: life is a continuous miracle, if it is “just” life taking care of this unique life form - then an unmeasurable amount of gratefulness would be most appropriate.
Mmh. Why am I writing conditionally? Don’t I feel that? Maybe I cannot handle that, really too overwhelming?

An interesting question.

is it all sheer (good or bad) luck? OMG, I am at the mercy of fate, a product of circumstances? That IS frightening. And I always have been? That would mean all the efforts, all the struggles were totally useless? And nothing can be done about securing anything? It might be gone with a blink?

Well, we could ask if luck is a real thing? Or might it be an idea that bears no relation to what actually happens?

But yes, the apparent randomness or unknowability of each moment as it appears could be seen as completely outside any personal control and yes, that's potentially frightening, but then you go on with the idea that life may be a continuous miracle, that it has been busy taking care of things anyway :-)

today I was focusing on the sensations of the outbreath: I was surprised about how "silent" it felt, how different the senstations were compared to the inbreath. A whole world in the nose. :-)

Yes, that's great.

Today the breath felt so reliable (even though somewhat irregular!) and detached from "me" and there was the realization (once again), that it just happens and that life takes care of itself. Yes, everything might change with a blink - but this body (and mind and environment...) has been pretty well equipped with resources to survive this far already.
Breath comes and goes - nice. :-)

It is nice!

By some curious synergy I was dreaming before I woke up this morning and the words, which felt very good, kept appearing in my sleep for no obvious reason These were : "Behold I make all things new".

As I woke up it dawned on me that this is the other side to what sometimes seems so frightening and potentially dark about the prospect of Impermanence. Perhaps these two are not so different? The newness of the next breath always replaces the fading or passing away of the current breath. What a rhythm!

All the best

Jon

[JonathanR]

I should add that I'm sure that phrase comes from Christianity. I should say that this does not mean that I generally subscribe to Christianity. Nevertheless this phrase did appear :-)

[Aguila]

Hi Jon,

I should add that I'm sure that phrase comes from Christianity. I should say that this does not mean that I generally subscribe to Christianity. Nevertheless this phrase did appear :-)

I like to say that I would probably subscribe to something in the intersection of Christian contemplation, zen, sufism and some more. The most respected teachers I have listened to, freely quote from many traditions. So: never mind. ;-)

Mmh. Why am I writing conditionally? Don’t I feel that? Maybe I cannot handle that, really too overwhelming?

An interesting question.

Yes, now that I read myself: of course "I" is overwhelmed. A concept overwhelmed with a concept - it is really a strong habit. Now there is a feeling of silliness. Beautiful. :-)

is it all sheer (good or bad) luck? OMG, I am at the mercy of fate, a product of circumstances? That IS frightening. And I always have been? That would mean all the efforts, all the struggles were totally useless? And nothing can be done about securing anything? It might be gone with a blink?

Well, we could ask if luck is a real thing? Or might it be an idea that bears no relation to what actually happens?

*sigh* Of course not, just another concept. Every time I go on a rant I end up in the same corner, taking thoughts seriously. I should know by now. The good (and new) thing: you should see me smile from ear to ear (instead of beating myself up). I am enjoying it, there is lightness about it. Just to get back to sensations after too much deliberation. ;-)

But yes, the apparent randomness or unknowability of each moment as it appears could be seen as completely outside any personal control and yes, that's potentially frightening, but then you go on with the idea that life may be a continuous miracle, that it has been busy taking care of things anyway :-)

Yes. But that brings me to a question that has been bugging me since the very beginning: who is choosing to go on with this idea? To work with LU at all??? Life unfolding. Go with the flow. Ok. Mmh.

...but this body (and mind and environment...) has been pretty well equipped with resources to survive this far already.
Breath comes and goes - nice. :-)

By some curious synergy I was dreaming before I woke up this morning and the words, which felt very good, kept appearing in my sleep for no obvious reason These were : "Behold I make all things new".

As I woke up it dawned on me that this is the other side to what sometimes seems so frightening and potentially dark about the prospect of Impermanence. Perhaps these two are not so different? The newness of the next breath always replaces the fading or passing away of the current breath. What a rhythm!

Thank you so much for sharing! That is indeed an amazing coincidence (another concept?)! I’d call it maybe Creation - balancing Impermanence. And also here: of course I do not mean it the Christian way. Beautiful. And surprisingly relaxing!
And some experiencing to round off all this deliberation: Revisiting the beginning of this thread I searched again for the “I” and found that the cloud encompassing my head, that seemed to be the position of “I” has dissipated. It seems “I” has moved into the “thought quarters” some more. ;-)

All the best
Aguila

[JonathanR]

. I like to say that I would probably subscribe to something in the intersection of Christian contemplation, zen, sufism and some more. The most respected teachers I have listened to, freely quote from many traditions. So: never mind. ;-)

That's great. I just had to say that in case you thought that I was a Christian missionary in disguise ;-)

I should know by now. The good (and new) thing: you should see me smile from ear to ear (instead of beating myself up). I am enjoying it, there is lightness about it. Just to get back to sensations after too much deliberation. ;

Music to my ears

!

Yes. But that brings me to a question that has been bugging me since the very beginning: who is choosing to go on with this idea? To work with LU at all??? Life unfolding. Go with the flow. Ok. Mmh

"Who" can be a frustrating question. You could ask "what"? Instead

. Thank you so much for sharing! That is indeed an amazing coincidence (another concept?)! I’d call it maybe Creation - balancing Impermanence. And also here: of course I do not mean it the Christian way. Beautiful. And surprisingly relaxing!

Yes it had that effect here too. Creation will do nicely thank you ;-)

I'm really so pleased.

Jon

[Aguila]

Hi Jon,
sorry, it got just too late yesterday.

"Who" can be a frustrating question. You could ask "what"? Instead

I have heard that a lot - but in this context it suddenly makes a lot of sense! Thanks!

. I'm really so pleased.

Well, glad to hear that, since impatience keeps saying hello…
Oh, but when I ask "what is impatient?" I am suddenly grinning again. :-)
“What is doing xxx?” Seems really a good practice.
All the best
Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hi Aguila

I just read your posta and again, really , I don't find that I have questions for you right now . You're investigating quite effectively at the moment. That's good.

Let me know if there's anything you'd like us to look at together?

All the best

Jon

[Aguila]

Hi Jon

Let me know if there's anything you'd like us to look at together?

Well, the funny thing is that by now sometimes I can predict what you would say. So I do not have to ask. :-)
One thing keeps coming to my mind. For example today I had a moment of fear about something that might happen. I asked "what is afraid?" - and of course could not find anything, fear just had appeared. And I was somewhat more relaxed - it isn't a big thing anyway. But then I thought (not for the first time): isn't that a wrong use of the question? Like a tool to relax?
How much am I doing the whole investigation to "have an easier life"? Instead of really wanting to see?
Am I overthinking again?
All the best
Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hi Aguila

. today I had a moment of fear about something that might happen. I asked "what is afraid?" - and of course could not find anything, fear just had appeared. And I was somewhat more relaxed - it isn't a big thing anyway. But then I thought (not for the first time): isn't that a wrong use of the question? Like a tool to relax?
How much am I doing the whole investigation to "have an easier life"? Instead of really wanting to see?
Am I overthinking again?

In this case no. It's a good question actually.

When faced with uncomfortable thoughts or sensations it is possible to reason in this sort of way, that "because there's no self nobody's there to suffer". And occasionally that may appear to work. But the very fact that this sort of reasoning is bought into play reveals an insecurity. There's still an attempt to avoid or resist.

If we don't judge this avoidance or resistance to be "good" or "bad" it is possible to just notice it. It may even
(perhaps gradually) become genuinely less troubling to encounter fear (and so on). Honest looking seems to be the key.

So you're right to highlight this.

All the best

Jon

[Aguila]

Hi Jon,

Yes, honest looking and no judging both seem essential! And both so easy to sneak by without even noticing.:-( it takes time to build new habits.
Currently I am traveling and I am observing that being outside of my routines I spend more time somehow absorbed in the moment, just busy dealing with whatever is in front of me. Mindlessly? Sometimes I "emerge" into consciousness and ask myself "what am I doing?", but that doesn't last long. Mmh. First of all probably a better question would just be "what is happening?". And applying the honest looking and no judging, now that I think about it.
The thing is: I am always torn between "yeah, just do it, go with the flow" and "if you do not stop every once in a while you will never change your bad habits". Thoughts... And yes, there is still a strong impulse to change things.:-( There is judgement. And there is judging the judgment. Cute.:-)

All the best
Aguila

[Aguila]

Hi Jon,
today I went again through hand on table exercise: No hand, no table - only the perception, it is really obvious. Only in contact, with perception the hand seems to materialize.
Well, looking closer, that is not totally true: there is some tingling in the hand, signalizing its existence.

All the best
Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hi Aguila

. First of all probably a better question would just be "what is happening?". And applying the honest looking and no judging, now that I think about it.

Yes. I agree. That's a bit like ground zero. No assumptions at the outset. Noticing whatever is happening right now.

. And yes, there is still a strong impulse to change things.:-( There is judgement. And there is judging the judgment. Cute.:-)

Ha ha! :-). Well, the good thing is that it's noticed and whilst there's judgement and judgement of judgement, there is also no judgement . This is not something that a "doer" has to "do" in order to change things.

. Well, looking closer, that is not totally true: there is some tingling in the hand, signalizing its existence

Look at this again. The tingling may be experienced but "signaling it's existence" is an interpretation or thought. The "hand" appears as a thought. Tingling is only tingling.

Try this with eyes shut. If there is tingling (or similar sensation in the area labelled "hand", with eyes closed is there "a hand"?

All the best

Jon