What is this?

[poppyseed]

Hi Ben

Very good!

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

-The label is obviously a thought referring to other thoughts. The memory of a shape in the mirror, the knowledge that the two long things sticking out the sides are called arms and are part of the body… the labels for the body parts etc. In the actual experience, no body exists… no separate body exists with any sort of boundaries.

Yes! In DE “body” is a label pointing to certain seeing (colours/ shapes), sensing (sensations), tasting :), and smelling :).

Can the 'body' do things?

-In the direct experience it’s just a constantly changing appearance… let’s say in the visual field, while “picking up a glass of water” it’s just changes in colors and light (and even that’s saying too much) in the experience there is no actual hand, glass or water and so nothing separate to act on anything else. So nothing is done and the body does not do anything.

Yes! But what is a “visual field” in DE? Is there a “field” that is not seen? Is the fied “3D”? What is space/distance in DE? What is it made of?
Please look at the computer (smartphone or tablet) display before you. Does your screen have a fixed location? Is the seeing coming from “here” and the screen is “there”? Where is "here?" Where is "there?" Look, where is the line between here and there? Is there a distance between “here” and “there”? What is the distance made of? Where is the reference point? Now, could you tell me from where you are looking at it, and what is there? Is there a "you"/an observer or a “center” of some kind in that direction? What do you see? Look at your screen. Is that screen separate somehow of seeing? Is the screen outside of seeing? Is seeing the screen and the screen two separate things? is there a place where the seeing (DE), is coming from, or seeing (DE) is all that there is? Is there a point of view (seer)? Is there a need for a seer?

Let’s have a look at the idea of control, choice and decisions. Please explore the three exercises below and report your findings

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
2. Put two objects that you like in front of you (e.g. a cup of coffee and a glass of juice), then pick up one or the other, while paying attention to the whole process of choosing.
Watch like a hawk. Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over.

3. Can you take me through a decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you share more details about it? How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?
Please give me some details about your decision making...

Love
Rali

[sittingfrog]

Hi Rali,

Thanks for these questions. The second part took a little more investigation this time.

Yes! But what is a “visual field” in DE? Is there a “field” that is not seen? Is the fied “3D”? What is space/distance in DE? What is it made of?

- There is no field separate from seeing in DE… it’s just a figure of speech. No distance or dimension outside of thoughts either.

Please look at the computer (smartphone or tablet) display before you. Does your screen have a fixed location? Is the seeing coming from “here” and the screen is “there”? Where is "here?" Where is "there?" Look, where is the line between here and there? Is there a distance between “here” and “there”? What is the distance made of? Where is the reference point?

-No distance, seen, seeing and seer are one and at the same location/no-location. There and here are post-DE and only thought-based.

Now, could you tell me from where you are looking at it, and what is there? Is there a "you"/an observer or a “center” of some kind in that direction? What do you see?

-To say it’s 2D is not exactly accurate but the closest description. There is no looking from and looking at… there is just seeing, nowhere in particular. There is no observer and there is no fixed center… I’m not sure if I’d call the middle of the “visual field” a center or not… right now it’s the cursor on the screen. It can be called the center as a concept but isn’t necessary any different than the window on the side.

Look at your screen. Is that screen separate somehow of seeing? Is the screen outside of seeing? Is seeing the screen and the screen two separate things? is there a place where the seeing (DE), is coming from, or seeing (DE) is all that there is? Is there a point of view (seer)? Is there a need for a seer?

-No seer, direction or anything outside of the seeing. The seen does the seeing and there is nothing outside of what’s seen, no next room, no universe, no painting behind me in DE… also no eyes or brain, etc.

Let’s have a look at the idea of control, choice and decisions. Please explore the three exercises below and report your findings

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
2. Put two objects that you like in front of you (e.g. a cup of coffee and a glass of juice), then pick up one or the other, while paying attention to the whole process of choosing.
Watch like a hawk. Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…
How is the movement controlled?

- Don’t know how the movement is controlled… there doesn’t seem to be a controller, so perhaps it’s not controlled at all.

Does a thought control it?

-Thoughts don’t touch the movement or have any effect on it.

Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?

-No controller can be located.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over.

-I can’t find a decision point but when the thought claims that it made a decision, the decision has already been made.

3. Can you take me through a decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you share more details about it? How did it come to be?

-This morning I decided to go for a run before I have breakfast… I’m not consistent with this, so the thoughts do some strong claiming of the “decion they made”. As I woke up, within a few seconds, there was a whole panel of voices discussing whether or not I should go for a walk lol. As it was early in the morning and there was nothing else to do, they nagged for a long time and made no final decision. I ended up going for the run.

Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence?

- Many factors: it wasn’t raining/ I didn’t have an early work meeting/ my daughter hadn’t woken up/ the world had not come to an end/ etc. All these conditions were outside of my control and most of them were outside of my influence.

What was in your control (according to thought)?

- By the time I ignored the panel and went for a run the thoughts had shut up but usually they’d claim that “I made the right decision and went for a run rather than have an early breakfast”. Perhaps claiming that the body movement was also in my control.

Please give me some details about your decision-making…

-I don’t make decisions outside of thoughts, it seems. I used to race motorcycles when I was younger… I remember going for minutes without a single thought; the body seemed to just move and decisions were made. When thoughts are less quiet, they usually claim that a decision was made by me.

Love,
Ben

[poppyseed]

Hi Ben
Awesome job!!

-To say it’s 2D is not exactly accurate but the closest description. There is no looking from and looking at… there is just seeing, nowhere in particular. There is no observer and there is no fixed center… I’m not sure if I’d call the middle of the “visual field” a center or not… right now it’s the cursor on the screen. It can be called the center as a concept but isn’t necessary any different than the window on the side.

Does it really have a “middle” without focusing on “objects”? What is “focus”?

-I can’t find a decision point but when the thought claims that it made a decision, the decision has already been made.

Great! Here is a video that you might find interesting:
https://vimeo.com/90101368?fbclid=IwAR3

- Many factors: it wasn’t raining/ I didn’t have an early work meeting/ my daughter hadn’t woken up/ the world had not come to an end/ etc. All these conditions were outside of my control and most of them were outside of my influence.

Yes!! If every action is always based on some previous event how can that be in your control? Your inclinations, conditioning, etc. all come to play a role in “decision making”, and those are built on top of other things. So, there is no “decision” at all but just cause and effect playing out and thought coming along “claiming” the ownership of the outcome.

But!! Do cause and effect exist without thought? How are ‘cause’ and ‘effect’ experienced directly? When could possibly cause and effect take place when there is only NOW/ what is happening? What is time without memory (thought content)? Can you directly experience ‘past’ or ‘future’? Can you directly experience ‘1 min ago’ or ‘1s ago’?
We already explored “space” So let’s have a look at “time”. There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?


Love
Rali

[sittingfrog]

Hi Rali,

The questions are getting more and more interesting :)

Does it really have a “middle” without focusing on “objects”?

-I suppose “middle” is also just a concept.

What is “focus”?

-Experiencing a partitioned section of the experience more prominently. Of Course, parts don’t exist in DE. Also, there is no comparison from moment to moment, so it doesn’t make sense to say an object is experienced more prominently… what would you compare it to?

​​But!! Do cause and effect exist without thought?

-Cause and effect require a number of things that don’t exist in DE. Past and future are not experienced. Nothing goes from one moment to another moment. And no relationship between cause and effect are experienced outside of thought.

How are ‘cause’ and ‘effect’ experienced directly?

-I hit the mug and the mug fell… it’s a thought and it happened in the past. In the direct experience, it would have been just a kaleidoscope of colors and patterns, physical sensations and sound.

When could possibly cause and effect take place when there is only NOW/ what is happening?

- There is no time for it to happen.

What is time without memory (thought content)? Can you directly experience ‘past’ or ‘future’? Can you directly experience ‘1 min ago’ or ‘1s ago’?

-No, you’d need thought to experience a ‘past’ or ‘future’ in the now.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?

-No movement is experienced. Outside of thoughts, time is not moving.

Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

-No, there is only this moment or simply ‘this’ without the moment.

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

-Not outside of memory

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

-It’s completely still… but since there is no movement and it doesn’t have any opposite, it doesn’t make sense to call it still either.

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

-No beginning.

How long does the ‘now’ last?

-Doesn’t have a length

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

-No end or start or you could alternatively say its start and end are the same.

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

-It doesn’t become the past. There is just ‘now’ and the ‘past’.

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

-Thoughts being experienced now.

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

-There is no experience of time, movement of time, past, future or present. It’s just a practical conceptual model.

Love,
Ben

[poppyseed]

Hi Ben
I’m glad you are enjoying the exercises :). I really appreciate your openness and enthusiasm!

-Experiencing a partitioned section of the experience more prominently. Of Course, parts don’t exist in DE. Also, there is no comparison from moment to moment, so it doesn’t make sense to say an object is experienced more prominently… what would you compare it to?

To “focus” on an “object” would be to select “it” and isolate “it” from the whole/ THIS, and this is the domain of thought. So, I would say focus is the precursor of labelling.

At this point, it will be a good DE exercise to get out for an actual walk in nature and observe interconnectedness. See how ALL is moving interdependently, including thinking and the senses. Hold these questions in mind:
Is there anything that is separate from everything else?
Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought? Is that interdependent movement outside of you? Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?
Is there an owner of being?
Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?
Is there a “you”?
Love
Rali

[sittingfrog]

Hi Rali,

I did a walk in nature but also did a half marathon with a large group of people this morning. A very interesting feeling of being a wave in a flowing river with no agency :D

Is there anything that is separate from everything else?

- No, there are no borders.

Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought? Is that interdependent movement outside of you? Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?

- No border, divide and label is the work of cognition. No Body, just the colours and sensations etc. No inside and outside… no sides…. There is also no behind or inside to things.

Is there an owner of being?

-No, there is just the being, without the label being.


Love,
Ben

[poppyseed]

Hi Ben

I did a walk in nature but also did a half marathon with a large group of people this morning. A very interesting feeling of being a wave in a flowing river with no agency :D

Beautiful!!!
I think you forgot to answer these:
Are there others? Is there an “I” in others? What are "others" in DE?

How is life these days? Is there still seeking?
Love
Rali

[sittingfrog]

Sorry, missed those:

Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?

-No there are no others or an I in others. There is also no other perspective in DE and so there is no perspective here or anywhere at all.

Is there a “you”?

-There doesn’t seem to be a relationship either way, no I, you or us.

[poppyseed]

Hi Ben

-No there are no others or an I in others. There is also no other perspective in DE and so there is no perspective here or anywhere at all.

-There doesn’t seem to be a relationship either way, no I, you or us.

Great!

How is life these days? Is there still seeking?
Love
Rali

[sittingfrog]

Hi Rali,

How is life these days? Is there still seeking?

Hmmm, very good question regarding seeking. There is definitely much less seeking but I’m not sure if there is still some. There is obviously nothing to become if you’re it already. The character goes on trying but it will never succeed or get it or grasp it. So I wasn’t expecting to gain anything new from these questions except maybe a refinement… maybe a question would come up, a new angle for the character to see things. Some of the questions are definitely new and enjoyable. How’s life? Good, bad and neutral and none seem to be an issue or last or be held on to.

Another thing, I’ve never been good with roadmaps or related to them so I don’t know (or really care) where I am but changes and refinements seem to continue. There don’t seem to be any problems either… it’s not like a state of bliss or anything like that. There may be an annoyance from time to time but that seems to be alright too.

Maybe I'll put it like this: there is (nor has ever been) seeking to gain something but changes continuously happen but there is no value attached to change.

Love
Ben

[poppyseed]

Hi Ben

The character goes on trying but it will never succeed or get it or grasp it. So I wasn’t expecting to gain anything new from these questions except maybe a refinement… maybe a question would come up, a new angle for the character to see things.

When you talk about a character, does “he” somehow exist? Can he do anything (even “try”) or is it just a story about a character, an illusion? Can a thought do anything – see, hear, taste, etc? You saw already that self, time, causality and things are illusory but there IS something there – there is seeing, hearing, etc (experiencing), which appear as them. And because they are an illusion, they or their absence can not affect the reality - like the Kanizsa Triangle:


So who /what is expecting to gain anything from this? Do you believe that there is an I that can wake up or be awake?
What is it that could be awake?
What is it that awakening could happen TO?
Is there someone separate form life, waiting to wake up to reality?
Is there someone who needs to let go of seeking?
Or letting go happens on its own effortlessly, when the futility of trying to grasp what is with thoughts is recognized?
What is it that is currently identified with thoughts, “seeing things”?
What is it that is standing apart from thought and has the ability to disregard them?
What do thoughts happen to?

Another thing, I’ve never been good with roadmaps or related to them so I don’t know (or really care) where I am but changes and refinements seem to continue.

When the core belief has been busted, a lot of other beliefs will still be hanging around. What you want to do at this point is LOOK and LOOK again. Keep your eyes open, let the beliefs come to the surface. Keep looking. They will come up one by one ready to be examined and released. Don’t fight them. Hold on to nothing. As soon as you start holding on to beliefs and ideas, you get stuck - you feel right about something and feel like you have an opinion. To unstick, just let it all fall off. That means question everything you are certain about. It may take a few months to settle in, but everyone is different, so there is no way to know how long it will take for everything to be re-examined. Sometimes it is intense, sometimes it’s gentle, but there is no finish line, only falling deeper and deeper into peace. Looking is the tool that has to be used over and over again. “Crossing the gate” is only the beginning of a long integration and re-evaluation. All this old conditioning has to be seen for what it is. The best part is that the cleaning happens on its own – it takes care of itself. If fear or resistance appears, it just shows that there are areas that have not been examined and need to be explored with DE.
You can find this video quite helpful in this regard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD58 ... 4&index=28

Is there anything else that you want to explore together specifically? Are you ready for the final questions?

Love
Rali

[sittingfrog]

Hi Rali,

When you talk about a character, does “he” somehow exist? Can he do anything (even “try”) or is it just a story about a character, an illusion?

-No, it doesn’t exist as a separate real thing but it seems to be a useful for communication / story telling.

Can a thought do anything – see, hear, taste, etc?

-No, thoughts don’t touch anything.

So who /what is expecting to gain anything from this? Do you believe that there is an I that can wake up or be awake?

- The expectation is just a thought. Nothing gets added or deducted from “reality”... it’s completely unchanging and changing at the same time. There is no I to take ownership of any changes. Awake or not awake both are very ordinary.

What is it that could be awake?

-Awake and not awake are discriminations made by the mind. Conventionally speaking though, delusion comes out of awakeness, made of same stuff and diasspears into the same stuff. It’s a momentary phenomenon with no owner and no one who is not awake.

What is it that awakening could happen TO?

-It doesn’t happen / it doesn’t happen to anything… or you could say it happens to itself.

Is there someone separate form life, waiting to wake up to reality?

-No it’s just life without the discrimination of awake and not awake.

Is there someone who needs to let go of seeking?

-Seeking seemingly happens as an impermanent phenomenon and comes to an end on its own… no one choses to start or end it.

Or letting go happens on its own effortlessly, when the futility of trying to grasp what is with thoughts is recognized?

-I hear the universe chuckling to itself quietly.

What is it that is currently identified with thoughts, “seeing things”?

-Nothing outside of thoughts interacts with thoughts. It’s like an empty train passing by with no one there to watch… it points to nothing and nothing points to it… it doesn’t contain any knowing other than the reflecting of other thoughts or senses. If there is a thought about “identification with thoughts”, that’s where it ends.

What is it that is standing apart from thought and has the ability to disregard them?
What do thoughts happen to?

-I had this question pop up into my head about half a year ago, which I think is relevant: “How do I know that I (or something) understands thought?” and the answer was “it doesn’t”. Nothing stands apart from it. Thoughts come and go. “Disregarding a thought” is when no related thoughts arise subsequently and “getting lost in thought” is when other thoughts arise that relate to the previous thought. So just like paying attention, disregarding thought is just a conceptual model. In reality thoughts are passing through slice by sice… only a trick of “memory and mind” make them seem like they’re understood.

You can find this video quite helpful in this regard:

-That was very helpful! Thank you.

Is there anything else that you want to explore together specifically? Are you ready for the final questions?

-Let’s do the final questions :)

Love,
Ben

[poppyseed]

Hi Ben

It’s really a pleasure reading your answers, there is so much clarity!
Here are the final questions. Please answer all questions in full, when you are ready.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?
Love
Rali

[sittingfrog]

Hi Rali,

It's been lovely working with you on these questions. Got a little busy over the past few days but here is what I have for the first four questions; I'll take a bit more time for the last two.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

-No, there is no separate self, nor ever was one.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

-For me it seems to be a psychosomatic focusing of attention on the sensation behind the eyeball and an identification with thought that suggest there is an I. It’s a thin layer of belief in distance, space and separation in the “visual field”. It’s a conceptual model of sound/hearer/hearing or feeling/feeler/felt etc. It’s function seems to be to distract and deny experience, specially body sensations. The illusion of separation seems to have a temporary relief of feeling in control. Feeling in control and knowing both are related to this process of cognizing a self as well.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

-Seeing this and realizing that there is no true agency, also realizing that there are no problems whatsoever, was a relief in the need to control and react to reality. Reaction still happens but less frequently and that itself is not a problem either.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

-It’s been a couple of years but it was a deep curiosity into sound and hearing… sitting for hours just listening. Then one day with eyes open, the sound was no longer anywhere specific and the divisions in the visual field disappeared.

Much love,
Ben

[poppyseed]

Awesome Ben! Looking forwrd to the rest of the answers!
Love
Rali