Breaking through views

[Dhvictoria]

Hello Wesley,

I am chaffed that we stablished this understanding of common honesty, humanity and clarity, thank you!

I am aware of my difficulties but prepared to act on them!

When I look at "I , I don't see much anything anymore, I mean, I see hands, eyes, taste, consciousness, choice, thoughts, all bits and pieces: here they are, here they are not.

there is though a fluid sense of 'I', softer; like a wave in the sand. I cannot experience "I"as I did before; solid , my great virtues and my weaknesses very well defined and solid, and that feels good and relieving.

So where is all gone? my opinions, my passion? well I am less caught in grasping, but still caught, what a joke!, there is more that I don't know that still keeps 'me' back...

I have to repost that I have been "not' noticing mind, and I don't know! I thought I knew = "a sense that thinks", but looking at it in experience, there is nothing, nowhere; in the brain? no sense, I feel unstable and confused now, like something has been taken out under my feet.

Many thanks

Victoria

[Dhvictoria]

The three fetters, and LU directs the enquiry to are: 1 Belief in Self, 2 Doubt, 3 attachment to rites and ritual.

[WesleySPK]

Hi Victoria,

I am chaffed that we stablished this understanding of common honesty, humanity and clarity, thank you!

Great I’m glad to hear!

I have to repost that I have been "not' noticing mind, and I don't know! I thought I knew = "a sense that thinks", but looking at it in experience, there is nothing, nowhere; in the brain? no sense, I feel unstable and confused now, like something has been taken out under my feet.

Ok, so just to be clear - if you take a minute and look everywhere you can in your direct experience right now. Can you say with complete certainty that there is no self to be found? Or is there the slightest doubt about this?


The aim here is not to look at what may or may not be “I” or “me”, the aim is to stick to the facts. If you stop and check your senses, can I see a me? Can I hear it? Go through all of them real quickly looking for any sense of self.

If you do not find anything, then my next question is : what makes you feel there is something to be found?

Looking forward to your answers,
Wesley

[WesleySPK]

The three fetters, and LU directs the enquiry to are: 1 Belief in Self, 2 Doubt, 3 attachment to rites and ritual.

Yes that’s right thanks for the reminder!

[Dhvictoria]

Good evening/night Wesley,

I look at my senses, I see them, one by one, and I am totally sure that there is no self in any of them, or together as a bunch.

Now, when emotions gather and I am not looking at them, then I have a sense of these emotions as; 'my' anger, 'my' gratitude, etc, etc.

"What makes me think there is something to be found? "

I guess this question is in response of: " there is more that I don't know that still keeps 'me' back...

What is happening is that I am experiencing 'not knowing' what comes next and beyond, and you see, I am used to have answers, so not knowing 'must' keep me back. Wow! it's so not true!

I simply don't know. Full stop.

Good night

Victoria

[WesleySPK]

Hi Victoria,

I look at my senses, I see them, one by one, and I am totally sure that there is no self in any of them, or together as a bunch.

Really good job looking here!

Now, when emotions gather and I am not looking at them, then I have a sense of these emotions as; 'my' anger, 'my' gratitude, etc, etc.

We will look at this sense of ownership and control a little later, for the moment you can try just an easy little exercise : whenever you notice that feeling of “my anger” or “my gratitude” simply stop and look for the owner, the “me” who owns. By stop and look I mean go through your senses, figure out where that feeling comes from. If you’re left empty handed, that’s good!

I guess this question is in response of: " there is more that I don't know that still keeps 'me' back...

Interesting. So how do you know there is more that holds you back? Really stop and ask yourself “ok so this sensation that something is holding me back, what is this? Where does it come from??”

What do you find?

W

[Dhvictoria]

Hello Wesley,

On your first question about feelings, i.e: anger, it's the body stressed by heat, burning. And later, a memory ; the little unloved child that I was, then nothing.

If I feel something positive like gratitude; there is an all over warmth and expansion of my body boundaries. Later the thought of all good things and people in life, and then nothing.

As for being held back

No, there is nothing holding me back,

I have an unpleasant sense of not knowing, but that sense is fading out by the moment.

Thanks

Victoria

[Dhvictoria]

It's exciting not to know! keep the freshness of the direct experience: my hand doing this typing, and my gratitude doing its feeling. Nothing to control, to attach to, just life flowing whether I notice or not. It's joyful. and I don't know!

Wishing you are well

Victoria

[WesleySPK]

Hello Victoria,

Ok it seems like maybe things are shifting a little bit.

So just to confirm, you don't feel that it's "my" anger or "my" gratitude, etc.?

And it is clear that nothing is holding you back?

It's exciting not to know! keep the freshness of the direct experience: my hand doing this typing, and my gratitude doing its feeling. Nothing to control, to attach to, just life flowing whether I notice or not. It's joyful. and I don't know!

Great to read this :). Yes it is indeed very pleasant to not know!

So I think at this point I would like to ask you where you might feel stuck, or confused, or unsure?

Depending on your response, we can perhaps look at the experience of control, but I would really like to look precisely where you feel there's a blockage.

I know I have said this many times, but please let any doubts, uncertainties, confusion arise and welcome them. They will likely be the most useful pointers and helpers in your inquiry. We need them in order to know where to look.

Think of those doubts like rooms unexplored in a house. Once you've explored the entire house, every nook and cranny, for any real "self" or "I", then at some point or another it will just become clear that here never was a separate I. But until we look in all of those forgotten rooms, you may still have this feeling of "ahh I don't know maybe there's still something, something is blocking me".

So?

Wishing you a lovely evening,
Wesley

[Dhvictoria]

Hello Wesley,

I can see clearly that “I” does not exist no matter where I look, just as I said before. Now you ask me to look for doubt and nooks and crannies and I find 2 types of events;

Negative Feelings: I catch myself feeling negative feelings often enough i.e: resentment = light heat in the body and almost saying inwardly: ““I” resent that person…” and then thinking: “oh! I owned this feeling that made me feel so hot and then planted it on someone else so mechanically ! how familiar this is to me even after so much work on myself and doing this enquiry”, This is a painful experience.

Then I have confusion around; how all actions have consequences; rain makes plants grow, deforestation makes the earth barren. Actions of body, speech and thoughts will have consequences if acted out, -even of they are not acted out as perpetuators of a habit-.

I have agency if I feel resentment and act it out. Even if I don’t act it out . It seems that “I” manages to make itself strong and visible precisely through ethics.

This is confusing because, if there is no “I” surely there is no one to be responsible for, no one having agency…. yet actions have consequences and ‘someone’ is responsible for those actions. You guide me; you are responsible for your guiding.

Thanks

Victoria

[Dhvictoria]

Ah! nothing is blocking me!; just looking at the negative feelings process "room", and the confusion over "who" foots the bill of unskilful actions if there is "no one". :)


Victoria

[WesleySPK]

Hi Victoria,

Negative Feelings: I catch myself feeling negative feelings often enough i.e: resentment = light heat in the body and almost saying inwardly: ““I” resent that person…” and then thinking: “oh! I owned this feeling that made me feel so hot and then planted it on someone else so mechanically ! how familiar this is to me even after so much work on myself and doing this enquiry”, This is a painful experience.

No negative feelings can and likely will continue to happen, as I'm sure you're aware. Those will be dealt with during the 4th and 5th fetters after LU if you choose to do that. It's very normal to experience those. In some cases (including my own), reactions become even more intense after LU. Nothing to worry about there it's perfectly normal. But let's take it one thing at a time. For now I would recommend just embracing your feelings whatever they may be.

This is confusing because, if there is no “I” surely there is no one to be responsible for, no one having agency…. yet actions have consequences and ‘someone’ is responsible for those actions. You guide me; you are responsible for your guiding.

Right I see where you are going and what you mean, and this is a very common worry with seeing through the illusion of self. To put it simply, what stops you from becoming an irresponsible asshole if there is no longer an "I".

Let me respond to this by inviting you to do some exercises exploring the notions of responsibility and control.

Open and close your hand. Pay very close attention to how it happens. Can you explain how you do that? Is there, anywhere in the experience, an "I" that opens and closes it? Or would you say the hand just opens and closes? Play with this a little.

Now pick two objects and place them in front of you. When you feel ready, grab one of them. Pay very close attention to the moment you decide to grab one.

Did you know which object you were going to grab before you grabbed it?
Who or what decided to grab that object?
Did you decide when you would grab it?

Or...Do all of these just sort of happen?

Like always, try and distinguish between 1) what happened and 2) what thoughts say happened. These are not the same.

Ah! nothing is blocking me!; just looking at the negative feelings process "room", and the confusion over "who" foots the bill of unskilful actions if there is "no one". :)

Great :). I promise we are going to address this confusion over who foots the bill of unskillful actions. It is indeed best to avoid going around acting like you can't take responsibility for anything because there is no "you". This is let's say a dangerous pitfall to avoid when doing Liberation Unleashed.

Looking forward to your answers :)

W

[Dhvictoria]

Hello Wesley,

Many thanks for this last feedback, I am feeling on fire; so is my desire to break with the fetters and hindrances that stop liberation.

Hands

I open and close my hand and, at first I notice ‘a faint sense of volition’ in the action of opening and closing, then hands are opening and closing spontaneously on their own way.

Grabbing

I picked up 2 things that I didn’t have awareness I would pick up
There was no entity picking them up, the hands did it! :)
DID “I”? No, not at all, it happened spontaneously, in the middle of another activity , if it makes sense?

I am glad that we will address control, and in future, I will other fetters. I am presently on a retreat on the Heart Sutra; if you were into Zen this is a sutra that basically spells out all these hindrances, fetters, etc we have and show us what to do with them! very in keeping with breaking the fetters.

Grateful
Victoria

[WesleySPK]

Hi Victoria,

Many thanks for this last feedback, I am feeling on fire; so is my desire to break with the fetters and hindrances that stop liberation.

Good!

Hands

I open and close my hand and, at first I notice ‘a faint sense of volition’ in the action of opening and closing, then hands are opening and closing spontaneously on their own way.

Grabbing

I picked up 2 things that I didn’t have awareness I would pick up
There was no entity picking them up, the hands did it! :)
DID “I”? No, not at all, it happened spontaneously, in the middle of another activity , if it makes sense?

Great work, really! I would like you to do this now and then as a little exercise or a reminder. You can choose the two objects, then place them in front of you. At that point, you observe which one you pick up, just like you did. Notice how it happens spontaneously. Perhaps you think of picking one up, but in the end the hand picks the other up.

I'd like to revisit this now :

This is confusing because, if there is no “I” surely there is no one to be responsible for, no one having agency…. yet actions have consequences and ‘someone’ is responsible for those actions. You guide me; you are responsible for your guiding.

Ok so you say there is no "I" found in the process of picking up one of the two objects right? Or in opening and closing your hand right? Maybe open and close your hand to make sure.

So why did you open and close your hand? What made you do it? Why did you pick one of the two objects up? You could have just not done it, right? That's always an option. Why did you do these exercises?

(this is going somewhere) :)

I am glad that we will address control, and in future, I will other fetters. I am presently on a retreat on the Heart Sutra; if you were into Zen this is a sutra that basically spells out all these hindrances, fetters, etc we have and show us what to do with them! very in keeping with breaking the fetters.

Wonderful, enjoy the retreat :). Yes I vaguely remember the heart sutra! It's been a while for me but I do.

Have a great day,
W

[Dhvictoria]

Hello Wesley,

I picked up a three objects;

No, There was no “I” in the process of picking them, I picked them at random; they picked themselves, really, no “I’ in opening and closing my hands; they just do it themselves. The hands opened and closed themselves there was no “I” entity in the action,

What made me do it? well you asked me to do it and I aspire to break free, and then they sort of did themselves.

Why did? because you asked me, but they did the action themselves, not having the volition of doing it would be counter productive doing LU enquiry, so in that sense that was the only option to me because I am here for the purpose of breaking through views, and contacting with direct experience feels satisfying as training for that, that is why “I” did it.

With gratitude

Victoria