That there is just awareness aware of itself

[nicefello]

What are you looking for at LU?
To find a more direct experience of the teachings that I am drawn to about reality. I have moments of clarity on what is here but then I fall back into a cycle of seeking and reifying. I would like to be free from this delusion and be a beneficial presence

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect someone to help point out where I am stuck and to turn my thinking on its head. And to help me see what is here. and to help break me loose from my spiritual seeking. to deliver an appropriate response to where I am at.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I practiced self inquiry in the teaching of ramana maharshi for a few years and then I've lived at a zen temple for the past few years.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[poppyseed]

Hi nicefello
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[nicefello]

Hi Rali, thank you for joining me. You can call me Jackie. I'm ready to start

What time zone are in?

PST

[poppyseed]

Hi Jackie
Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

What time zone are in?

PST

I'm GMT+2. We have some difference but we'll manage

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[nicefello]

Thank you Rali

What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I don't know. I wonder if I know that already. Sometimes it seems so. Nevertheless, I find myself drawn into trying to figure it out or see it more clearly or have it stay.

What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I won't be stuck anymore. Everything will flow freely and I won't be in the way or clinging.

What do you want not to happen?

I'm scared of going into some kind of confused and/or irreversible state by doing this looking. I often have a lot of fear arise when my self is called into question and there's some instinct that I'm doing something wrong or unnatural or unwholesome. And I'm scared of not being in control.

What are you hoping for?

When experiencing some diminished sense of self, there seems to still be some part left over thats holding on for dear life. I hope to let go in a way thats kind to that sense of self.

What is missing?

non-manipulation. love

Thank you

[poppyseed]

Hi Jackie
Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary.

What do you want not to happen?

I'm scared of going into some kind of confused and/or irreversible state by doing this looking. I often have a lot of fear arise when my self is called into question and there's some instinct that I'm doing something wrong or unnatural or unwholesome. And I'm scared of not being in control.

Let’s examine this carefully. Fear usually is there to protect the imaginary self from harm. In this case it protects “you” from changing and losing your ”humanity”. But look, how can something that has never existed change? Why would the absence of something that has NEVER existed cause a change in existing stuff? Do you expect that somehow you are going to turn into a zombie or a vegetable? Life expresses itself and "we" are part of this expression. In some way, we get the idea that we are life and we dictate what is happening, we are in control, we think, we do things and we need protection but when we examine this closely we see it for what it is - just a mirage, an illusion. There is no doer and thinker, no decision maker and no control . Things are just happening.

You probably believed in Santa when you were little. When you realised that Santa is not real, did anything change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?
Please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary. Please let me know what you find.

Love
Rali

[nicefello]

When I look for the self, I can't find anything. But I'm still seeking. I would like to go beyond/end the seeking.

But look, how can something that has never existed change? Why would the absence of something that has NEVER existed cause a change in existing stuff? Do you expect that somehow you are going to turn into a zombie or a vegetable?

When I feel the fear and feel the contraction of self protection and trying to hold on to what seems normal and comfortable, I don't have a picture of what I might become if I let go but its fear of the unknown. and maybe its not so much a fear of anything actually changing. Maybe more so just a fear of the self protection function taking over and freaking me out. In other words a fear of the fear. Especially with the possibility of some irreversible shift in my perspective albeit subtle.

When you realised that Santa is not real, did anything change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?

I don't remember.

See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary.

Okay the fear is not here right now but I'll check it out and let you know tomorrow.

Thank you

[poppyseed]

Hi Jackie

When I feel the fear and feel the contraction of self protection and trying to hold on to what seems normal and comfortable, I don't have a picture of what I might become if I let go but its fear of the unknown. and maybe its not so much a fear of anything actually changing. Maybe more so just a fear of the self protection function taking over and freaking me out. In other words a fear of the fear. Especially with the possibility of some irreversible shift in my perspective albeit subtle.

The fear itself is not to be feared. It's a mechanism. Working perfectly as a security system. It is protecting something from being found out. It is a sensation + a thought. Look at the sensation and just let it be here. Find where in the body is being felt, bring it closer, invite it to share its wisdom. It's fine to just let it be. Respect it. Bow to it. Then look what is behind fear.

It goes exactly like this… There is a snake on the road. It is dark. But, In the light it’s seen as a rope. The darkness makes the rope appear as a snake and with that a relationship with it, fear of it. But in the light it’s clear that a rope is a rope, it was never a snake, it did not transform, snake was an idea superimposed on the rope.

Ok so, I’m sure you guessed, the snake is the separate self. The rope is reality (life, aliveness, being, THIS, what IS - whatever word works to connect to the actuality of being.) Darkness is not knowing the reality. Light is knowing the reality. You can’t lose what you never had. And what is here is here, no need to hold on or do anything for this to be here.
So don’t worry! There is no danger in knowing what you are and what life is and see all that in your experience. It’s coming back to sanity - the fear of going insane, but what is there behind it? What is there that needs to be protected?

Love
Rali

[nicefello]

but what is there behind it? What is there that needs to be protected?

I don’t see anything behind the fear. I’m not seeing anything to protect. just openness and joy and energy. And still theres something not quite right. I dont think I can put words to it but im still seeking in some way and this feels like just some transient pleasure

[nicefello]

it feels a little dizzying or disorienting

[nicefello]

and I’m still trying to make my experience non dual or something. or to at least try to keep it going or deepen it. and now some fear is coming. and now it passed but leaves some residue of high energy that i dont know what to do with

[nicefello]

In meditation tonight, I had a more visceral experience of not having a self where it felt like the center of my experience dropped out for a moment and was immediately met with panic. I had been inquiring into the fear as you suggested but at this time the fear overwhelmed me and I switched to calming myself as my heart and breathing were fast.

[poppyseed]

Hi Jackie

and I’m still trying to make my experience non dual or something. or to at least try to keep it going or deepen it. and now some fear is coming. and now it passed but leaves some residue of high energy that i dont know what to do with

Just explain to me, how can you make your experience non-dual? And what is the difference between a “non-dual” experience and a “dual” one? Like I said, fear is a sensation + a thought. Do you see how your expectations of how “no-self” should feel (thought content) come in the way?

If you feel tension when trying to look at what is, you are trying too hard. Stop trying. Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something that needs a huge amount of energy to sustain. It’s not mental gymnastics, and there’s no medal that you have to go for. Soften, breathe, smile even. Take your time to relax and simply notice what is happening in the present: sensations, muscle tension, feelings, subtle eye movements, sounds, smells. This sort of noticing is effortless; attention moves and focuses on different perceptions, different information coming in. Thoughts rush in to label what is being noticed. No special state is required; it’s everyday ordinary business.

I don’t see anything behind the fear. I’m not seeing anything to protect. just openness and joy and energy. And still theres something not quite right. I dont think I can put words to it but im still seeking in some way and this feels like just some transient pleasure

Fear = sensation + thought
What you experience (hopefully) is a sensation and a thought ABOUT how things are “not quite right”. Do you see that? Does anything in the actual sensation suggest in any way about “not being right”? Separated from the thoughts and images that are attached to them…all that is there is raw sensation. Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is fear, or that it is fearful? Does the sensation know anything about “fear”?
Look and see if the sensation itself is the fearful I. Look at the label/thought ‘fear’ itself. See the label F E A R or the thought “I am fearful” as typewritten letters.
Is the label the fearful I? Does the label ‘fear’/thought know anything about fear, or is the word/thought just a bunch of letters? Is the thought itself, fearful?Can you find anyone/anything in the word/thought that is fearful?

If there are some mental images coming along, just focus on the images.
Are those mental images the fearful I, or are they just images that are arising and subsiding?
Can you find anyone/anything in the images that is fearful?
Love
Rali

[nicefello]

how can you make your experience non-dual? And what is the difference between a “non-dual” experience and a “dual” one?

By looking to see that there is no separation, just the whole field of awareness. The difference between the dual and nondual experience is recognition of unity.

Do you see how your expectations of how “no-self” should feel (thought content) come in the way?

Yes, I'm aware that I keep making it into something and reifying it but that seems like the only way I can make an effort. And when I don't make effort, I'm just lost in thought and not recognizing how it is to be aware.

Do you see that? Does anything in the actual sensation suggest in any way about “not being right”?

When I look closely at the sensation of something missing or not being right, it just has a tone or flavor and the meaning I interpret about not being right drops away.

I don't have any fear right now with which to investigate your other questions, but I will reply after I look at that.

Thank you

[poppyseed]

Hi Jackie

how can you make your experience non-dual? And what is the difference between a “non-dual” experience and a “dual” one?

By looking to see that there is no separation, just the whole field of awareness. The difference between the dual and nondual experience is recognition of unity.

So basically, the only difference would be the thought content – the description of what is happening? Is there anybody that is separated from reality and needs to be reunited? What recognises the unity?
Anyway… I think it would be helpful to make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:
If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what color they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what color they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:
Seeing
Hearing
Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.


Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's color, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, color(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Color (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

P.S.

When I look closely at the sensation of something missing or not being right, it just has a tone or flavor and the meaning I interpret about not being right drops away.
I don't have any fear right now with which to investigate your other questions, but I will reply after I look at that.

Good! We'll deal with it when it appears