The veil thinnens - where is the veil? Need of a guide

[Elettaria]

I am still chewing on the question about finding an autonomous entity... It got me closer than looking for "self". Because "self" let me focus on "me" even though "no self" means also others... And this helps.
But, no, I cannot answer your question with "yes" yet.

However: I got a step closer. I feel it. Being more relaxed, observing everyday life, observing how everything unfolds without autonomous entities, letting it sink it, seeing how everything is just interdependent, orchestrated without a composer or conducter, just spontaneously flowing.
Also working with DE especially on sound seems to help me realise more and more. I will do that another day plus the questions, unless you have a better idea...
It will soon be too ridiculous to believe in self.

(My Santa story is complicated. I saw through that illusion immediately but than they made me believe in it again...)

[Anastacia42]

It will soon be too ridiculous to believe in self.

GOOD!

For sounds, try this:

How about doing this pointer, possibly again?

Hearing Exercise

Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Whatever it is, I'll just refer to it as 'what can be heard'.

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?

2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?

3) An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears?

Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just 'what can be heard'?

What do you find?

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?


Loving,

[Elettaria]

Exactly this exercise is what I am already doing. It is kinda like ButtChair, but with ears :)
I have days I get easier into these experiences and days it is very hard and frustrating because I cannot let go as much as I was already capable of. Today and yesterday were those days (with a lot of work, but this eases now).

Then I am busy trying to stop myself labeling everything.
Then I am realising I cannot stop anything.
Then I try to relax and just go deeper but I stare at the labels anyways.
Restlessness.

I observed during the days the flow of life. Even more proof I don't decide anything.

I realised, when I am in the "me mode" my eyes are a very busy focus, with a lot of tension. Similar to the exercise of truth/lie.
When I am in "experience mode" I am just relaxed in the "back of the body", expansion. I don't really feel it is "in" the body - just overlaying it maybe. So... there is sense of self in experience situation.

Honestly, I feel like a bad student. I did have a crazy work week, but this is important to me. I feel you have given me quite a lot of good exercises and I just am not investing enough time. Whatever I do helps though.

[Anastacia42]

You're being a good student. You're looking, you're posting. Relax into it. This can't be forced.

"Enlightenment is an accident. Meditation makes us accident prone."

Sunryu Suzuki

Explore ‘Sense of Self’

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

Loving

[Elettaria]

I am home very late from a day out with family, getting back to you tomorrow. I have a lot of time tomorrow for Looking and really cannot wait.
Hope you are having a good time too.

[Anastacia42]

Sounds good.

[Elettaria]

Finally I could dedicate ample amount of time to practice.

The "sense of self" exercise you already gave me before, but I welcomed the invitation to recap a few exercises.

Sense of self was surprising. Now I cannot sense it anymore. There is vage feeling of boundlessness, endlessness. Nothing more. Not sure this is thought, because it is not really described with words. Other than that I cannot find it. Which is odd because I still think in "I". But whenever I want to grab it, it becomes dust. This one is thought, but it is also not, because it is content of thought and this just demasks as not real.

I practiced becoming aware of the senses a lot. Investigating what is actually real. If I tune into either sound or sense of body, it soon becomes a plane of timeless experience moving around in some sort of space. The form breaks into potential. It is an experience which feels complete - it seems there cannot be anything else than the experience itself. So there is never someone who can jump in and ask "is there a separate self here?". After each of these situations I felt like I would need to do so, because only then I would be able to SEE. But it is just not possible. And asking it retrospectively is just recalling it in thought and therefore not real anymore and the question wouldn't be able to do much anymore.

When going with visuals, with seeing, it becomes very interesting. Also here I get moments of seeing everything as a plane. And then it can happen that I see someone or something and feel unbelievably close, like in my face, only there is no touch to be felt. As if distance is illusion. This happened only in a few moments.

I also practiced recognition of thoughts. Learned from Angelo DiLullo. Starting in a still place letting thoughts come up, recognising their content, realising it is a thought, and then let go of it, to go back to stillness. This made me more aware of how much actually is thought.

When I searched for sense of self I also realized I feel more empty. There is emptyness - just neutral. Nothing bad or good. This is actually something that I now see arising since days and is more prominent within every moment, especially when I come into "now" and experience only. Maybe I just become aware of what was there all the time.

If you would ask me now about there never being a separate self, I would not be able to reply. Neither yes nor no. But also there is a big non-interest in that question. As if there is absolute no relevance. Maybe though, it is an avoidance strategy. Hm. If I confront myself with the question now, I feel initial resistance, then sadness, when just relaxing into the realisation that there really never was a separate self. It is one thing to know in the mind, but to admit it fully felt... Yes I think this is falling... I feel some heavy weight moving.

[Anastacia42]

Good.

You say over and over that there is no separate self and then in your last paragraph you've got some doubt. We need you to know with 100% certainty that there is no separate itself.

Here are the so called final questions. So called because this is just a beginning. Please answer these with succinct answers as clearly as you can and the answers will be shared with other guides who may have questions.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Loving,

[Elettaria]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Yes. This has not fallen completely. If I look closely I cannot find it. But it doesn't lead to a shift in casual seeing. It is like I am seeing both versions at once.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It seems to be a concentration, a definition of a point in time and space. It starts by education and awareness of ones perspective linked to a body and naming and labeling things and others, which leads to thinking there is a "me" and a "not-me". It works by constant thoughts defining what I am and by labeling what I am not - and believing these thoughts.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It is quite hard to put into words. I feel less distance, less separateness with all my senses. It is like "me" is touching the points of as far as I can see and everything in between. Hearing is expanded the same, sensing too. There is vastness to be felt. I also feel more leveled in everything - seem to find the middle ground of things better. I surprise myself (yes, myself) by how quickly I can drop things again when they passed. I see other people less, I mean, it seems my awareness is expanding over or through everything and people are less haptic and dense to me than before. I used to experience them quite massive compared to today. After interacting with them, I can easily drop thoughts about it again, whereas before I took the conversations with me in my mind for days. Everything seems more okay.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I cannot say I have "seen it" or am through... Or maybe this was the most mellow smooth fading into it. So I cannot pinpoint it. Maybe it's still coming in the future. I think most helpful was to really learn what DE is and to constantly being guided into it.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Decision is change of action. But there is no one deciding. Environmental factors offer triggers to bring forth a directional change, which is completely dependend on the environment and former experience. Also thoughts coming up out of nowhere can be such an environmental trigger.

Example 1: Where to sit in a café? The environment shows there are only 3 options today: One being at the bar and rather close to someone, so it would feel not free enough. One table being in a corner and the other in another corner with people slowly packing their things to leave and this place would have a socket nearby to charge the dying phone. However, the coffee was ready at a point, when the people were still sitting/packing, so the "decision was made" to sit at the first table in a corner.

Example 2: Being in a supermarket and recalling "I opened the last pack of almond milk today". So I went to grab from the big shelf another pack of almond milk. I already tested all brands before and this was the one I preferred. After walking half of the store already, a thought came up saying "You are going to the other store after that, because you also need chickpea flower. The almond milk there is cheaper and you need every penny now." (Yes, some thoughts are calling me in the 3rd person.) So I went all the way back to the almond milks, put it back and bought it in the other store.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Intention to me is focus on a thought content concerning something that is wanted. An idea, that was spontaneously a "good idea". It is setting up a direction, consciously. So it is consciously empowering a thought with its content, using it, not necesseraly believing it.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Free will is thought content coming up when experiencing seperateness. But there is no such thing. Everything is highly interconnected - because it is essentially one. Everything is exactly where it needs to be. One thing moves, because the Whole is changing. Can the Whole have free will, life itself? This is beyond me.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Choice is an array of thought contents with different directional options, build on receiving information from senses. So, it is a thought, in which the other thoughts of options appear. It is not real.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

It's my favorite thing. Kidding - well. I feel control is so heavily interconnected with wanting something, or wanting to avoid something, together with a very deep hurt of feeling seperated. I think this might be why it takes for me some time, it is a deep wound or scar. I was a control freak. This has seemed to be released, maybe not completely, I don't know. I am really okay with how things are just happening, even when otherwise intended. So, control is a believed thought, which is very intense, with intense bodily sensations.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

There is life and there is mystery. I don't know how it works. I am a vessel, which experiences. Things happen through me, as they happen through others. It is just life living, ever unfolding, moment to moment.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Nothing. Responsibility needs seperateness, free will, decisions. All of it are illusions.

6) Anything to add?

Thank you for your help. Maybe you find something in here, that helps to see me better.

[Anastacia42]

Yes.

I find you SEEING, but doubting because it does not meet the stories you have heard or your expectations. That seems to be the only hold-up. You seem to already know that "self" is nothing but a thought that is not real - right? If so, you are basically done.

Yes, it can be very subtle and gradual for some people. It would help for you to talk to people who had that experience. I didn't.

You will not SEE 24/7, especially not at first. That is what those videos on Falling are telling you. This goes on for years.

Everything else you are describing is SEEING that there is no self.

I had another client stuck in expectations yesterday. He went to the meetings with Ilona and with Vince. They helped him on teleconference with his inquiry. The next meeting is with Luchana and Lubo on Thursday. Then Vince again in 2 weeks.

Will you be able to attend these for assistance with this last shred of doubting?

To participate in Luchana and Lubo's Thursday meeting, send a request to luchanauzunova@gmail.com
You will receive an e-mail confirming your participation and a link to join.

To participate in Vince's meeting in 2 weeks email him vinceschubert@gmail.com

Sydney (est) Australia. 6 am
Every 2 weeks

https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768?p ... 12Um5DQT09 (ask Vince for the FULL LINK)

Meeting ID: 869 9148 5768
Passcode: 083035

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

PS. Just because your father put the red suit back on and covered his face with a white beard does that make Santa Claus real? Or do you still know that there is no Santa Claus?

[Elettaria]

right?

Yes. I think it is exactly like you are saying.

Will you be able to attend these for assistance with this last shred of doubting?

I will join one or the other or both. I did join Luchana & Lubo once when waiting for a guide. And it was a bit confusing, not so precise. I will try again and I already heard praises for Vince's meeting. I will find my way and keep practicing / allowing myself to let the Seeing sink in.

To confirm later, should I report back here? It will be nice to have closure for you too, no? :) Did I thank you enough already?

I become more forgettable now. It's funny. But always okay. And I experience more like a kid - emotions are there right now and full on and expressed and poof they are gone. Next moment is on.

You know, I spent some time thinking about why I won't see what I see. A thought came up suggesting, it is nothing new. It is how I always saw the world. So where is the change, the Seeing? But this is what often is reported, isn't it? I think there is a change though.

Another thought brought to mind the reason for my fear of the night sky. I was always rather sensitive and seeing a fully lit night sky means not only seeing the stars, but
"I" am actually there - I am reaching out all the way and in so many directions and it is just overwhelming. I feel everything. This is why I think the night sky is coming down on me, falling onto me. Others with a fear like that always reported the opposite, being lost, drawn into the vastness. This became more clear ever since I see this now happening with seeing if I tune into it in daily life. I see myself with less resistance to this experience now. Mystery solved, maybe.

Life is nice. Thank you so much - so much!

[Elettaria]

OMG Stacy, I got it!
I was just walking home looking at the people crossing by and intentionally thinking "They are a seperate self from me" and this was intensifying the knowing that it absolutely isn't true. I couldn't believe it anymore. I started to laugh on the street, just bursting out into laughter and then continued to walk, to question that again with the next people and I found myself laughing again. OMG, this is so clear!

Writing it all down before to you was so helpful, yet again. Yes, in my little bubble at home I was still thinking that I believe in seperate self. But when confronted with people (and trees) on my way home, I really had it all infront of me. It is self just "there", in the form of someone else. I should have thought about that earlier, but then again, I really needed this allowance of sinking in and your words to do so.

[Anastacia42]

YAY! Yes!


To confirm later, should I report back here? It will be nice to have closure for you too, no? :) Did I thank you enough already?

Yes. We need one succinct post with your replies to the "final" questions as you see them now all in one place. Those will be shared with other guides, who may have questions.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?



Good LOOKING!

Loving,

[Elettaria]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there isn't (yay). It was never the case.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It makes us think and act as independent, self-responsible beings, which might just be a protection mechanism, to protect the bodymind, so life can be experienced through it. It is created with education, awareness of ones perspective linked to a bodymind and by language. Naming and labeling things and others is leading us to think there is a "me" and a "not-me". It works by constant thoughts defining what I am and by labeling what I am not - and believing these thoughts.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It is somehow absolutely funny. How could I have been so convinced?
The difference is, in addition to my "normal" point of "me", I see the interconnectedness of everything - there is no distance between things, yet they unfold in 3D. I was bumping more against things the last couple of days. I can tune in with all my senses to feel raw, vast, true experiences. The senses expand, there is falling inside a vastness felt.
I am able to recognise and drop thoughts better. Which makes life in general more enjoyable.
Other people seem at times emptier to me. Maybe because I don't address too many stories to them anymore. I recognise self there. It works best with people for now. When I try to see Self in plants, maybe because it is "my" life's dedication to work with them, but I feel a lot of energetic interaction happening. There is Self, but there is more.
After interacting with people, I can easily drop thoughts about it again, whereas before I took the conversations with me in my mind for days. Everything seems more okay.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The absolute last push was to actually test it out in the open with people walking around me. Only when I intentionally said there is a seperate self in a specific person, the interconnectedness and the experience of there only being one self was magnified, intensified and I saw it everywhere. I kept testing it out like that because it made laugh hard every single time. It wouldn't have worked without the practices before.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Decision is probably defined as deliberate change of action. But there is no one deciding. There is just change of action. Environmental factors offer triggers to bring forth a directional change, which is completely dependend on the environment and former experience. Also thoughts coming up out of nowhere can be such an environmental trigger.
Hearing my cat meowing outside, meaning he wants inside, I can just observe myself getting up to let him in. I can also let myself be more naturally flow with the whole - without participating in the thoughts battling whether I should do it now or when I finished writing an email. There is an impulse, I can flow with it.
It is becoming a game or play. Just to be and observe my reactions. But it is also not there all the time. I fall into habits and need to remember I can do things differently.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Intention to me is focus on a thought content concerning something that is wanted. An idea, that was spontaneously a "good idea". It is setting up a direction, consciously. If this will be the actual direction is not being established by it. So it is consciously empowering a thought with its content, using it, like I did when I was finally Seeing, but not necesseraly believing it.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Free will is thought content coming up when experiencing seperateness. But there is no such thing. Everything is highly interconnected - because it is essentially one. Everything is exactly where it needs to be. One thing moves, because the Whole is changing. Can the Whole have free will, life itself? This is beyond me.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Choice is an array of thought contents with different directional options, built on received information from senses. So, it is a thought, in which the other thoughts of options appear. It is not real.
A thought appears "I want coffee". This leads to more thoughts like "Look at the clock, it is almost 5 pm... you really shouldn't.", "Coffee is tasty", "I like to sit in the coffee and read", "It's me-time" (whatever "me" is nowadays), "I can go right away.", "I can make coffee at home", "No, I make shitty coffee these days", "You always go to a café at this time these days". All of them offer a directional option. Now I can lie back and see what will actually happen and smile - and are surprisingly unimpressed by the thoughts concerned with routine. Every thought, even the first one setting the options in motion, can just be dismissed.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

I guess I will need more time, days, to really feel into that one. It was such a big one for me and is substituted with a delight feeling of flow in whatever direction it goes.
Control is so heavily interconnected with wanting something, or wanting to avoid something, together with a very deep hurt of feeling seperated. I am really okay with how things are just happening, even when otherwise intended. But it needs to be tested still if it is always the case. And if not, there might be work to do. Which I expect anyways.
So, control is a believed thought, which is very intense, with intense bodily sensations.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

There is life and there is mystery. I don't know how it works. I am a vessel, which experiences. Things happen through me, as they happen through others. It is just life living, ever unfolding, moment to moment.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Nothing. Responsibility needs seperateness, free will, decisions. All of it are illusions.

6) Anything to add?

Not at the moment.