beyond identity, beyond thought, beyond emotion

[lgn]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the concept of a self that I have grown up with has ultimately been an illusion. From what I understand so far, it’s simply a repetitive pattern of thoughts with a label of I or Me attached, memories, goals, etc. these have been repeated for so long that it can be a hard habit to break and move past from.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking to move beyond the concept of a self. I feel as if I simultaneously have no self but still cling to these patterns of self. Particularly seeing thoughts/emotions as just thoughts/emotions. I feel as if I am sticking my limbs through the “gate” but not just walking through it. The experience is hard to explain, but knowing what this is, but still being pulled back into self when anything that triggers my emotions gets started. I am looking to see that perhaps a way to identify that there actually isn’t a me to get pulled back into those thoughts and emotions?

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I have never done some truly guided before. I would say I’m looking for ways to address my issues with still identifying with thoughts and emotion. A method of not getting pulled back in. I feel like if I keep going I will just be repeating my answer to the previous question.

But yeah, looking for a guide to help me identify where a potential problem area is. Areas where I’m still getting hooked. I’m what way am I looking at things incorrectly.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have practiced meditation for the last 15 or so years. Started with a very traditional mindfulness practice. Very off and on. Eventually found more non-dual teachings, and spent a few years practicing Dzogchen. Currently, don’t subscribe to a sitting practice. I try to incorporate meditation into daily life. Driving, walking, talking, listening to music, etc. Figure this is the ultimate goal in terms of awakening so, why not focus there. (My adhd also made sitting a bit of a challenge, but still nice from time to time)

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[ankitawho]

Hello there :)

My name is Ankita, and it is wonderful to see you at the Gate. I'd be happy to guide you, if you like?
What may I call you, and what time zone are you in, please?

A few agreements:

1. You are required to post everyday, as this inquiry works best if the momentum is maintained. If at any point, more time is needed, please let me know.
2. If you haven't already, please read the disclaimer ([http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/](http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/)) and what Liberation Unleashed is NOT ([http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041](http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041)), and confirm that you have understood them.
3. You will be asked several questions throughout our conversation, and they will be in blue. Even if they feel repetitive sometimes, please answer each of them individually, as each one of them serves a purpose. When you answer a question, you may quote it using the "quote" feature. This video may be helpful to understand how it works: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ)
4. It is advisable to write your answers in a word document and copy-paste them here, as technology is not perfect and glitches may sometimes wipe out your answers.

If this is all okay by you, we may start.

Warmly,
Ankita

[lgn]

What may I call you, and what time zone are you in, please?

Hi Ankita! My name is Logan. I would be delighted to have you as my guide and appreciate your time!

I am located in Eastern Standard Time (EST)

[ankitawho]

Great! :)

I am located in Eastern Standard Time (EST)

I am in IST, so there is a time difference, but let's try to manage :)

Logan, our first step is to let any lingering expectations float to the surface. It is of course okay to have them, and I've had some fun ones too. There is no one judging, so be as honest as you can be:

On passing through the Gate,
How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing as of now?

A reminder: Please answer all of these questions individually by quoting them (as explained in the video in the previous message). This will help me keep track clearly.

Warmly,
Ankita

[lgn]

How will life change?

Life shouldn’t necessarily change. From my perspective, this isn’t about change but seeing. Or a change in perspective, a view from the “back seat”. Life will keep continuing on as it has been. This shouldn’t alter the course of my life or anything like that.

How will you change?

I also shouldn’t change. From my understanding, a self shouldn’t really exist, and the sort of “big self, awareness, etc”, isn’t mutable (while simultaneously constantly in flux? If that makes sense?)

What will be different?

I think there might be a bit less reactivity.

While life will continue as is (ups, downs, beauty, ugly, happiness, sorrow) there won’t be an aspect to it that is actually personal. It’s just doing its thing, nothing to be controlled.

Not just seeing this conceptually but being this.

But then are these expectations I should be aware of? Is this simply knowledge of acquired through reading/listening to other inquiries?

What is missing as of now?

Nothing can be missing. What’s here now is what is here now. Whatever is missed is also here and now and therefore that “missing thought” is also presently here and now.

Thanks again.

Much love,

Logan

[ankitawho]

Hi Logan,

Thank you for your answers :)

Is this simply knowledge of acquired through reading/listening to other inquiries?

Speaking in an absolute sense, knowledge acquired through hear-say is no knowledge at all. As long as it has not been experienced directly, it is indeed an expectation, an assumption of what something must be like.
With the amount of content available around spirituality online, it is understandable that we might have a general assumption of what seeing no-self might be like. More often that not, it is quite different from what its actuality.

Your expectations are reasonable. But we will be putting them aside moving ahead regardless. The only true expectation you may hold is that all seeking will come to an end.

Now, please tell me:

What comes up when you read that there is no you, no self, no doer, no controller, no witness, no experiencer ... never has been and never will be?

When you look for the "I", what is there? Where do you look? What do you find?

Warmly,
Ankita

[lgn]

Hi Ankita,

What comes up when you read that there is no you, no self, no doer, no controller, no witness, no experiencer ... never has been and never will be?

When this is really felt. sense of relief comes up, if that makes sense. For example, this morning I was challenging thoughts and opinions about who exactly decided to have those thoughts and options. Where did that decision to act come from, etc. When these questions are asked, It’s just a blank. When other thoughts with suggestions come up of a possible origin, then those too can be challenged on how those were decided.

I’ve also tested this with movements I’ve made and the same principle has come up. It seems where there was an assumption of a doer or actor, but that’s just a feeling.

When you look for the "|", what is there?

I don’t really find a sense of a concrete “I”. Some thoughts bubble up, but then I can’t really define them as an “I” those are also appearing.

Where do you look?

I look at my immediate experience. I try not to really focus on my thoughts about an “I” or a “no self”. Try to not have a focus at all really but the intention of finding that “I”.

What do you find?

I find experience. The colors, smells, shapes, sounds and feelings that are happening. Thoughts are also happening but also part of the experience. A thought might latch on but then I notice and go back to “finding”. This has been noticed before but there has been issues of getting latched back on. Now when I remember this, that would also just be an experience. Seems to be if there is just experience when I look for an “I”, then that would essentially just be another experience.

Hope you had a great day and having/had a great evening!

Best,

Logan

[ankitawho]

Hi Logan,

Great :)
These questions were to check for fear, in case there's anything that is scared to immerse into this inquiry. You express feeling relief, so we move forward. But if at any point, a contraction or fear is felt during our conversation, please let me know.

Our first exercise is called Apple, and it is to ensure you understand what Direct Experience is:

Apple:

There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now, you have two ways to answer:

1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!

You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is ONLY these 6 things:

Seeing

Hearing

Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)

Tasting

Smelling

Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Now, have a look at an apple. If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise, or you can google for a picture of an apple, or you can simply use this one:



When looking at an apple, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Colour is known and the fact that thoughts are arising are known.

But what about the content of thoughts and what they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something… because that is just more thoughts.

Actual experience is the colour, shape, smell, taste, sensation and the arising of thoughts but NOT their content. Their content is not experienced!

Is there really an entity ‘apple’ here, or only colour + shape, and a thought ABOUT some entity ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience."

Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known

Colour labeled ‘apple’ is known

Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)

Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known

Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Loving,
Ankita

[lgn]

Hi Ankita,

But what about the content of thoughts and what they describe?

My thoughts instantly distinguish the color red, shape, smell and touch (if I had a literal apple in hand). However, these thoughts are not the sensation itself but merely thoughts about the apple.

Those thoughts can never actually come into contact with the reality of the apple image. They can just describe it.

Tested this out more by just thinking about something totally irrelevant and am still experiencing that visual sensation of the apple, it doesn’t simply leave my experience because I’m no longer thinking about the apple.

Is there really an entity ‘apple’ here, or only colour + shape, and a thought ABOUT some entity ‘apple’?

There isn’t an entity called ‘apple’. It is just shape and color.

The thoughts identifying that color and shape do come up, almost instantly. The shape and color arisings themselves are instant though. No gap compared to thoughts that Identify this combo as an apple.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
……., is an apple actually known?

Apple is inherently a concept, compared to what’s directly there. The Conceptual mind never comes into contact with an actual ‘apple’. When the combination of visual, taste, touch, smell etc appear together, then this gets the ‘apple’ label, but I suppose none of that really indicates the direct existence of an actual apple. Those senses are the actual experience alone.

There is still an an absolute feeling of there being an apple while also seeing no evidence directly of their being an apple.

So, apple itself is not actually known. It all seems very paradoxical.

Best,

Logan

[ankitawho]

Logan,

Great.
You seem to be already clear on looking in DE, but here's another exercise to reinforce the same thing. It is important because this is the foundation to all of our inquiry.

Please try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.

For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/color (just seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (just smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (just sensing)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (just tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (just hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (just thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Warmly,
Ankita

[lgn]

Hi Ankita,

Please write a few examples from your daily life

Here are some examples from my day so far:

Seeing the trees: just seeing
Hearing the birds: just hearing
Seeing the bird: just seeing
Smelling the flowers: just smelling
Feeling the breeze: just sensing.
Thinking about work: just thinking
Seeing the desk: just seeing
Feeling the hardness of desk: just sensing
Seeing the oatmeal: just seeing
Smelling the oatmeal m: just smelling
Tasting the oat meal: just tasting
Hearing cars: just hearing
Worried: just thinking
And/Or worried: just sensing
Sitting on the chair: just sensing
Seeing the chair: just seeing
Walking around the house: just sensing
Seeing my environment move: just seeing


Texting a friend:

Seeing my phone: just seeing
Touching my phone: just touching
Formulating a message: just thinking
Typing on my phone: seeing/touching

Hearing music: just hearing
Identifying the song: just thinking

Listening to a friend: just hearing
Responding to a friend: just thinking

Walking in the yard: just sensing, just seeing, just smelling

Hope all is well!

Much love,

Logan

[ankitawho]

Hi Logan,

Wonderful :) All is well and I hope you are having a beautiful day too.

Moving forward, we will be exploring thoughts:

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.
Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:

Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Is there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Warmly as always,
Ankita

[lgn]

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear!

Thoughts are simply appearing and disappearing into nothing. When I try and find a place where they would be arising, I don’t find anything. If I do find something then it too is also just a thought.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Absolutely not. What thought is currently appearing is what is appearing. There isn’t a chooser to decide that next thought. It would just be an illusion (and a thought itself) if there appeared to be one.

Can you predict your next thought?

Nope! That “prediction” is also another thought appearing. Unpredictable. Impossible to predict.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No, positive think away, but as noted above, there isn’t truly control of thoughts. They tend to relate to one another and at some point, there is going to be a negative thought (maybe it’s fear of having a negative thought)

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Also no. If these are suddenly appearing and reacting to other events, they are spontaneous. You cannot stop it.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

It seems that a category appears and then a list can form, but the “chosen” category of thought itself also was just an appearance

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

The intention to prevent an appearance is a thought appearance itself and it would be impossible to stop anyway.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:

Could you predict the order of their appearance?

Nope! Keeps things interesting

Is there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence' or "they take content from previous thought", or that 'one thought follows another thought?

It’s all very random. They seem to domino off each other, in some cases but overall no direct sequence.

Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?

Absolutely not.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Based on everything above, nope!

[ankitawho]

Hi Logan,

Great looking!

Lets now explore control:

Palm Flipping Exercise
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.
Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Let me know,
Ankita

[lgn]

Hi Ankita,

How is the movement controlled?

It seems to not really be controlled but a lomos t be spontaneous.

Does a thought control it?

No. Can think of something completely different and it still moves.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No. Some thoughts might come up saying me but they cannot be it. My experience says otherwise.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Spontaneous. Doesn’t seem to have any sort of decider managing when exactly to turn my hand.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

It was the left hand. Strong urge to say me but but no memory or a me ever really deciding that.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Nobody decided. It was just happening.

Fun exercise :)

Best,

Logan