The veil thinnens - where is the veil? Need of a guide

[Elettaria]

That's a nice liberation story :D
Thank you for this motivation. Yes, sinking in, falling, enjoying experience - on my agenda.

Should I get back to you in a week or so? I got a lot of info from you and want to develop a practice from that.

[Anastacia42]

Please post every day, as agreed.

This helps you to keep up momentum.

Tell me every day what was practiced & how it felt.

Much love

[Elettaria]

Thank you, I'd like that.

I practiced ButtChair, ButtBench, ButtBed. There is only the sensation of ButtChair, I zone out of all other sensation meanwhile, while I let myself sink it more and more and then I get the feeling of vast spaciousness within the ButtChair sensation happens - and it's like falling. The sensation is in free floating space. I cannot keep it for too long, it becomes uncomfortable. So I know I just have to keep doing it.

This also happens now with the other sensations, hearing, seeing. There is just seeing in free floating space - and it seems rather 2-dimensional.

I also listened a bit more to Pernille on the 1st fetter.

I get more frustrated to see myself caught into thoughts, but as soon as I realise it, I can step out of the thoughts. This happens more and more throughout the day.

[Anastacia42]

That's great.

And when you are noticing the spaciousness, can you say 100% that there is no separate self?

[Elettaria]

I will get back to you tomorrow. Today was a very busy day, good but different, and the little moments I had I wasn't able to dive deep and even sense the spaciousness. But tomorrow is Sunday and I will be able to dedicate a lot of time for this. Looking forward.

[Elettaria]

Quite often I took time today to go into Just Sensation, ButtChair and so forth. It was more difficult to go to the spaciousness moment, until I realised, this is expectation and therefore Self centering. As I learned from watching more videos by Pernille, I was just realising that and accepted it. This made it possible to let go more and to experience.

Nothing much happened. There was a lot of thoughts coming in. It was at times even funny because I recognized how the ego was trying to trick me out of trying. Acceptance. But I did find more and more joy. It is so immediate, beautiful, because raw. It is stunning. So I incorporate it more and more into everything, trying to be more present. And looking for the next possibility to ButtChair.

One time today, when I was "closing in" on the experience I felt a tiny moment of ecstasy which I did not expect at all.
At other times thoughts were trying to "help" me take note of everything I experience to later report it to you, so it put me under pressure. I managed to draw myself out of that. Yet another trick.
In some mini moments I did see that DE was all there is. Because it was just one point and the vastness at once and nothing else was there.

[Anastacia42]

This all sounds like good practicing.

Keep going!

Much love,

[Elettaria]

Even though it was/is Monday I got to experience a few time. Nothing new. I do feel the realness of it, I struggle to fall / sink in because of thoughts. I do see them coming up on a "higher" level than being in the moment. Visually I have the image of thoughts coming into existence about my eye height. When focussing on DE, they are appearing as if I was observing that from the level of my heart or something.

I also experimented with my fear image (stars reflecting in water, ne being inside). I imagined this happen, and sink into the experience. I know it is not DE and fantasy, but it is such a strong image, I thought I can use to tackle some underlying doubt or belief. I will try it again. Nothing much happened so far.

I am coming close in DE: In the milliseconds I am fully absorbed in the experience I realise everything there is - and there is no self. But it is not experienced long enough for me.

[Anastacia42]

Yes, you won't SEE with visualizations or thinking or expectations. Those are a waste of your time. Seriously.

LOOK with your eyes - is there a "self?"

Explore ‘Sense of Self’

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

Loving,

[Elettaria]

Does the sense of self have a location?

It doesnt have a set location. It appears to be from the heart up to the eyes, sometimes far back behind my head. But whenever I want to pinpoint it, grab it, it is not there.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Fluid spheres of different sizes, constantly changing.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

No. I feel a grabbing of thoughts in it, making it "my own". Itself is just empty, hollow, nothing. By having something inside, a thought it took ownership of, there is contrast to the emptyness, loudness, the thought becomes so loud I believe it.
However I feel that I just made up this explanation. The habit of trying to make sense of things. I think it is true, but I also think it is not.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

Changing, emptyness, hollow without distinct borders.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

It is pure thought. Imagined. There is nothing real about it.

What is found?

How can I sense that and still believe in Self?

I realised a strong belief coming up these days: I cannot see myself living with no-self. How can life work without me being there, watching over things, control? It seems impossible.
Do you have an approach for that? I tell myself already, that there was no self the whole time, but it doesn't seem to click.
I fear it is keeping me from Seeing.

[Anastacia42]

Okay, lots of stories. Lots of made up stories.

Fluid spheres of different sizes, constantly changing.

Can you reach out and touch this? If a surgeon opened you up, would this be there? In other words, is this DIRECT EXPERIENCE or content of thought?

However I feel that I just made up this explanation. The habit of trying to make sense of things. I think it is true, but I also think it is not.

Test it. When you think " loudness, the thought becomes so loud I believe it."
Check your gut: contraction or expansion?

There is a self - same thing - expansion or contraction?

Truth = expansion
Lie = contraction

It is very simple.

It is pure thought. Imagined. There is nothing real about it

Correct.

How can I sense that and still believe in Self?

Only by lying.


While it seems unbelievable, there has NEVER been a "you" controlling or directing *anything*. If you LOOK with open eyes, you will clearly SEE this.

Did you do this pointer?


Stream Exercise

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.

Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side.

Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where "you" autonomously intervene into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc.

Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which 'you' are responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

As always, relax & have fun!

Loving,

[Elettaria]

I have to postpone my reply by one day. I was working too much. I did go over the exercises already but want to spend more time Seeing, in a relaxed and patient manner.

The picture of the landscape "rivering" gave me a burning image of truth. I relate deeply to nature. Yes! And I was able to experience myself like that today - from "outside" myself, just as presence throughout the whole scene I experienced. That was amazing.

Searching for the decider I did already and nothing came back. But I want to look into it again in the way you presented it to be sure.

The truth/lie check about my story of how believing of thoughts happen to me came back as full blown lie.

Thank you.

[Anastacia42]

All good! I'll watch for your answers.

want to spend more time Seeing, in a relaxed and patient manner.

Okay.

How does it FEEL to SEE these things?

Loving,

[Elettaria]

Re: stories about sense of self

Can you reach out and touch this? If a surgeon opened you up, would this be there? In other words, is this DIRECT EXPERIENCE or content of thought?

It is all content of thought. Nothing is to be found in direct experience.

Test it. When you think " loudness, the thought becomes so loud I believe it."
Check your gut: contraction or expansion?

Very strong contraction.

There is a self - same thing - expansion or contraction?

Contraction. On the phrase "There is a seperate self" strong contraction.

Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

It is a beautiful entirety. Nothing is independent of each other. It is but one.

1. Can you find anywhere where "you" autonomously intervene into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc.

I wanted to keep this "clean", so I didn't read any books on the subject or watched anything else on it on Youtube except what you linked to since we speak. But yesterday a book kinda jumped at me, I opened it randomly and read what was there. It was exactly about this issue. It is one of Lisa Cairns'. It became so obvious and clear to me how every choice depends on everything before and there is no beginning of this thread. When did a decision start then?
Also when Looking: I do not find the decider. The gap between a decision and a thought claiming "I decided" is huge - it is ridiculous. So I do not pick it up. Or is it, that there is no one to pick up a thought about that? Hm. Interesting...

Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

Mind says, there cannot be such an entity. It is a very good triggering question. It seems to break something when looking.

3. Can anything be found for which 'you' are responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

No. I would need to be able to decide autonomously for that. There is no responsibility, no guilt in reality to be found.

How does it FEEL to SEE these things?

When I step on some profound "new" truth, I experience expansion shivers a lot. From the core of my body outwards. Sometimes a thought about destabilisation comes up. But this fades more and more.
Seeing the landscape being one was ultimate joy. Okay that is thought. But it made me be part of it. The observer (even in imagination) was part of the oneness.

Thank you

[Anastacia42]

Beautiful.

Can you now say with 100% certainty that there is no separate "self," never has been and never will be?

If your father is wearing a red Santa Claus suit, are you still fooled?

Loving,