Divert No More

[Delphi]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That which I call I, me, my self is a story spanning supposed decades, an accumulation of memories, thoughts, experiences woven together like a thick medieval tapestry in which to wrap and protect that which needs no protection. Its sole purpose is to shield and to project a fictional character and in doing so bind oneself in darkness and suffering

What are you looking for at LU?
To experience true freedom in Life. To finally transcend my belief in limitation. To no longer live a life of reactivity and unnecessary suffering but one of inner clarity and acceptance of what is. To be able to love and give love without the intrusion of accumulated fears and insecurities that have lived on within my own imagination and inner pain . To stay in the light I know so well and to trust it.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To help me see what I at times cannot. To finally break through to a more permanent and stabile understanding. To help expose my erroneous beliefs and to allow me to live with a greater deal of acceptance.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Meditative practices and inquiry into the nature of the self (Ramana Maharshi). The usual self help books, psycho-therapy and my own reliance of what I have slowly garnered during the process of living. Have listened to countless number of lectures, read a variety of books ranging from Zen Buddhism to Advaita Vedanta to Jungian Psychology. Blah, blah,blah,

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[ankitawho]

Hello there :o)

My name is Ankita, and it is wonderful to see you at the Gate. I'd be happy to guide you, if you like?
What may I call you, and what time zone are you in, please?

A few agreements:

1. You are required to post everyday, as this inquiry works best if the momentum is maintained. If at any point, more time is needed, please let me know.
2. If you haven't already, please read the disclaimer ([http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/](http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/)) and what Liberation Unleashed is NOT ([http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041](http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041)), and confirm that you have understood them.
3. You will be asked several questions throughout our conversation, and they will be in blue. Even if they feel repetitive sometimes, please answer each of them individually, as each one of them serves a purpose. When you answer a question, you may quote it using the "quote" feature. This video may be helpful to understand how it works: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ)
4. It is advisable to write your answers in a word document and copy-paste them here, as technology is not perfect and glitches may sometimes wipe out your answers.

If this is all okay by you, we may start.

Warmly,
Ankita

[Delphi]

Hello Ankita, Thank you for responding. You can call me Delphi and my time zone is US Mountain Standard Time ( MST ) is 7 hours behind Greenwich Mean Time (Colorado time zone) . Look forward to exploring together.

[Delphi]

Hello Ankita, Thank you for responding. You can call me Delphi and my time zone is US Mountain Standard Time ( MST ) is 7 hours behind Greenwich Mean Time (Colorado time zone) . Look forward to exploring together. I just want to add I have read all the disclaimers and fully understand them

[ankitawho]

Hi Delphi :)

My timezone is IST, so we have a bit of a time difference -- but we can manage.

Alright, let's get started. To kick this off, it would be good to let out any expectations that may still be lingering. There's no one judging - so be as honest as possible:

On passing through the Gate,
- How will life change?
- How will you change?
- What will be different?
- What is missing as of now?

Loving,
Ankita

[Delphi]

Hello Ankita,

So nice to wake up in the morning and see you had replied. My new found friend. Now to your questions:

On passing through the Gate,
- How will life change?

"If my current experiences are any indications as I believe they are there will be a deep unwavering certainty that the entity I have known myself to be will no longer claim responsibility for all that occurs but remain as just residual conditioning and reactivity from the past that will be seen as such and slowly disentangle their hold. In short, Life will be allowed to just be."

How will you change?

"Life will no longer be resisted but allowed for. Pain will happen on occasion but unnecessary suffering will cease. I will be truly free."

What will be different?

"Life will be a direct experience, unfiltered by the past conditions or future expectations. Mind and body will be in alignment capable of coexistance with changing times and experiences. Outside may not change but its underlying reality will be revealed."

What is missing as of now?

"Actually right at this moment nothing is missing. In general at certain triggering times reactivity takes hold and I can mistake it to be me. In a way it is, as it is reactivity that is being experienced by me at the moment. Thoughts and bodily sensations can intrude and it takes a while to see them for what they truly are shadows from the past making themselves known. Ones that were there to protect me but are no longer needed"

With Love and Gratitude,

Delphi

[ankitawho]

Hi Delphi,

I feel delighted to accompany you in this little journey.

I understand your expectations, and they are both reasonable and valid. That being said, we attempt to drop all of them here. With intellectual understanding of spirituality, and consuming all of the content in the spirituality domain, it is difficult to not have some preconceived notions about what passing through the Gate will be like.
Our ultimate goal for this conversation is to SEE for ourselves, absolutely clearly, with no doubt, that there is no self, by relying completely on direct experience only -- and not at all on what we may have read or heard.

One true expectation you may hold is that if there is any seeking in your experience, it will come to an end.

With expectations out of the way, let us investigate if there is any fear with regards to this inquiry or the rawness of direct experience. Please tell me: what comes up when you read that there is no self, that there really is no you? Could it be actually, really possible?

Lovingly,
Ankita

[Delphi]

Hello Ankita,

what comes up when you read that there is no self, that there really is no you? Could it be actually, really possible?

My reaction to the statement there is no self is "of course there is no self". How can just a sense of a self be a self? I cannot however not have a sense of a self. I can find memories, I can find sensations, I can find feelings, I can find reactions but no entity that exists independently as a self. No. I don't want to deny the actuality of reactions. But are they truly my reactions?
How can they be if there is a witnessing of them? I am not try to intellectualize here. This is now my experience followed by what I only call a "forgetting" But that has become less frequent. Now even the forgetting is just experienced if that makes sense. There is great peace in knowing that there is no need to expend so much energy in propping up the illusion. But although less need I cannot say that that sense of self doesn't intrude. I just notice it now as an emotion or a thought a physical manifestation more often. Like much else that happens in life. Hope I am making myself clear.

With Love and Gratitude--Delphi

[ankitawho]

Hi Delphi,

This is great.
I gather that even though you are not able to find a self, there is still a "sense" of self. There is a lot of clarity here, however, just so we don't leave any stones unturned, let us start from the top. We will be exploring the "sense" of self deeply soon.

Our first exercise is called Apple:

There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now, you have two ways to answer:

1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.

2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!

You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is ONLY these 6 things:

Seeing

Hearing

Sensing (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)

Tasting

Smelling

Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Now, have a look at an apple. If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise, or you can google for a picture of an apple, or you can simply use this one:



When looking at an apple, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Colour is known and the fact that thoughts are arising are known.

But what about the content of thoughts and what they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something… because that is just more thoughts.

Actual experience is the colour, shape, smell, taste, sensation and the arising of thoughts but NOT their content. Their content is not experienced!

Is there really an entity ‘apple’ here, or only colour + shape, and a thought ABOUT some entity ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience."

Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known

Colour labeled ‘apple’ is known

Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)

Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known

Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Let me know x

Loving,
Ankita

[Delphi]

Hello Ankita,
I look forward to your responses and questions.

2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

"Yes only by looking can I see what I know to be a sock and its colour."
As to the Apple:

But what about the content of thoughts and what they describe?

"The contents of thoughts can only try to represent an experience in either internal descriptive words or internalized images. They cannot be the direct experience of an apple or anthing else directly experienced for that matter.

Is there really an entity ‘apple’ here, or only colour + shape, and a thought ABOUT some entity ‘apple’?

"The entity apple does not exist on its own. It can only be experienced directly and immediately otherwise it needs to be refered to. The reference may be a recollection of what sweetness or tartness may be, what crispness or softness may be, what smoothness or roughness may be, what bright red or yellow may be and that then is only in imagination or perhaps even in a physiological response to thought. Salivating or wincing at the thought of tartness. But to truly experience an apple is to use all the senses at the moment" The rest is heresay.


Love and Gratitude--Delphi

[ankitawho]

Dear Delphi,

It can only be experienced directly

to truly experience an apple is to use all the senses at the moment

Is there an apple that can be experienced directly (or indirectly)?
Even in direct, immediate experience of the "apple", there is only:
- Seeing (shape + colour)
- Hearing (the munch and crunch)
- Smelling (the fragrance)
- Tasting (sensations following eating)
- Sensing (touching)
- Thoughts arising
Where is the apple?

Yes, thoughts only refer to something such as the apple, but are the senses evidence of some conglomerate of a specific image, specific taste, specific texture that together make up some entity called the apple, that can be experienced directly?

Where was this apple before thought said that this image, this taste, this texture is of an entity called an apple?

Do you see that despite seeing that there is no apple, as you expressed here:

The entity apple does not exist on its own.

... there is still a sense of apple?
Where does this sense of apple reside? Is it in the image, the taste?
It is clear that thoughts can only refer to something, but is it clear that there really is no entity such as an apple at all?

If there was a thing that existed "out there", in reality, we would say direct experience is:
- Seeing
- Hearing
- Smelling
- Tasting
- Sensing
- Thoughts arising
- Apple

Do you see this?

Lovingly,
Ankita

[Delphi]

Good morning, afternoon or evening Ankita and thank you for your prompt and careful guidance.

Is there an apple that can be experienced directly (or indirectly)?
Even in direct, immediate experience of the "apple", there is only:
- Seeing (shape + colour)
- Hearing (the munch and crunch)
- Smelling (the fragrance)
- Tasting (sensations following eating)
- Sensing (touching)
- Thoughts arising

Where is the apple?

"If I am to understand the question as it is currently posed is it that my answer which although directly relating to my direct sensual experience of the apple is valid it is the conceptual label " Apple" that although seemingly subtle persistents and is indeed rather a profound barrier having obvious implications. A kind of Direct experience colored by the persistence of indirect experience via memory and conceptual understanding? And perhaps if that is true it becomes a metaphor for why the arising of even of a sense of self with it's inevitable ownership of experience stands between me and true liberation? In short the meaning we have learned to give absolutely all objective reality has tainted and obscured what just is in whatever form it may take. An Apple can be directly experienced only as sensations. They in themselves aren't Apple. Experiences in life just come and go and are engaged in a variety of ways but they don't in themselves scream out "Self" or a need for one to just exist. This can certainly be understood intellectually but then we are still not just searching for the gate but when found are resistant to break through. I hope I am making myself clear for that is what I am not just thinking but seeing.

With much Thanks, Love and Gratitude --Delphi

[ankitawho]

Hello Delphi,

This is wonderful :)

Let's look into body and the "sense" of self.

Where would you say "you" reside in the body?
Is it behind the eyes? Is it around the heart area? Maybe the gut?

Let me know,
Ankita

[Delphi]

Good morning Antika and many thanks for helping me see more clearly.

Where would you say "you" reside in the body?
Is it behind the eyes? Is it around the heart area? Maybe the gut?

My initial reaction was always and occasionally still is that the self somehow is associated primarily at the level of the eyes and the head and if that becomes established holds primacy to all experience. Like a closed fist slowly opening that over time has not been always the case. With the practice of self inquiry and Yoga Nidra sensations have now stood apart as what they are, sensations independent of a doer. However when the question as what you have posited "Where I reside" the mind goes blank and in doing so I disappear. This is a state I am not only familiar with but has been the prominent reality in my life. When a significant enough event happens that illicits a strong reaction in my body and mind more readily I find myself back to "a peace that knows no understanding". As if I am jostled back from some sort of dream. I wouldn't be here if that wasn't still the case infrequent as it has become. One would say perhaps I need more time. But then what comes to "mind" is why time?Isn't that where my story resides? A sequence of events and experiences that when pieced together form what I would now call the tapestry of what I call me. Thank you for letting me ramble it is extremely revelatory. The question then that begs to be asked is what purpose does that tapestry serve other than to try to solidify that which doesn't even exist. A holding on to the past as if it is needed for the proof of the present to find meaning. At what point does one finally find true liberation? It seems more a reality every day that you must "die before you die" to deeply reside in just a state of open acceptance of what just is. Beautiful how life can be when you are its unfolding.

With Love and Gratitude--Delphi

[ankitawho]

Hi Delphi,

I hear you. However, intellectual sense-making will not help us here. Let us strictly stick to Direct Experience from here on forward for all questions.
So, tell me, in direct experience (refer the green list from the Apple exercise), where is this sense of self? Is it a sensation?

Love,
Ankita