Ending the constant searching

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Diana,

Hope you're enjoying your trip, whatever it is.

Home again now. A cousin tripped over her dog and broke her heal in a nasty way. She needed some caring.
I've run out of puff again before I got to you tonight. Tomorrow night...

love

vince

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Diana, sorry i've been absent. Had a little procedure in hospital. All good.

so I have major FOMO lol.

..had to look it up. Good one. (I don't mean to have it is good)
Here, acceptance that I'm not able to be there happens pretty quickly (and easily)
it is helped by the idea (thought) that to want to be there is robbing me of appreciation of THIS.

After awakening it all becomes entertainment.(shit happening)

I can see this, not there at this point, but more so I would say

You can enlist the use of thoughts to elucidate the opportunities.

This gives me chills , isnt is amazing how ‘everyone’,though there really isnt a self has a unique different experience, I liken it to snowflakes, everyone unique, so many infinite variations yet really just a part of one mass of water vapor appearing in so many different infinite and unique forms.

Yes, I love to boggle this mind with impossible understanding. Even more so when considering that water vapor is not separate from THIS (which is not separate from 'me')

This is evident by the omission of thoughts of want or should.

This warrants some more exploration.
My right wrist is giving me pain sensations as I type. (arthritis) At the same time as there is acceptance of this, there is an idea that it is improving and will one day no longer be painful. This idea is held lightly and is accompanied by another idea that it might not happen.
i say "lightly" as there is no desperation in it.

SO what you are saying and I think what I get is It’s not like you drop it , it just drops, kind of like just releases, like the fist naturally just unclenching, its not a doing of the dropping, it just doesn’t happen, am I correct?

Yes. One day you wake up and it just isn't there any more.

I would say for me the sensation is more of an inward contraction and deep pulling in, strangely the opposite of you,

It may have been that way for me. i don't remember. Memory isn't reliable. My previous description of yearning is how it is now. i do (vaguely) remember despair.

All that comes to ‘mind’, recognizing that none of these things can be ‘done’ is just words that evoke the opposite, eg. surrender, letting go, dropping, unclenching, relaxing, being, softening, settling, the yin to the yang, the feminine aspect, going back to what is, to this, to presence, to the moment, these are what comes up as the perspective to consider. What do you think?

I love them. Especially the feminine apsect. It's welcoming, inviting, accepting, comforting...

It’s a bit like neti neti from the yogic perspective if you are familiar with that. You cant get this without going through and seeing all you're ‘not’ and then it's just what's left.

Yes, I am (a little) familiar with it. It promises something that can't exist. That is that you will be left with something that you can grasp. Can understand.
When in reality what you are left with is a mystery. A beautiful, wonder full succouring mystery.

its our natural state.

Yes, here I see the beginning of this but wonder if I'll 'get there' in the time (ha) left.

Check this link out

I will. The link has been open for days now, but haven't had time to watch (yet)

After awakening Vince what changes did you notice in the body if any?

Hmm, can't remember any specific changes. Certainly the daily (or more) bout of frustration/anger wasn't there anymore. (it still occurs maybe monthly)

Have you heard that there was a study that looked at the brains of all these supposed very experienced mediators who had put in like thousands of hours, and to the horror of many , the brain waves showed that they were actually thinking and not mediating, they had fooled themselves completely.

No, I haven't seen that study, but I'm not surprised.

instead sit in the gap, the discomfort , and see what happens. Yes, I think so, THATS the juice

Yes, and here the mind is useful. It's via thought that you will discover what the discomfort is about.

with love

vince

[Trinidiana]

HI Vince,

Let’s get this thread going again shall we? I have been a bit delinquent with it.

I will write a bit then continue from our last post. I think it’s going to be a bit stream of consciousness.

Time is flying and the last couple of weeks have been very busy, such is life. Now this week, sons in town, brother coming soon etc. Lots to do. Yet I procrastinate on much .

I have a level of guilt in me that although i love everyone,I seem to value and enjoy my alone time the most, and quiet.

ONe year ago I gave up drinking, started off as a thirty day thing but I just continued. I feel much healthier now. But when hanging out with family, I am often just ready to come to bed whilst they continue to drink. Perhaps I have got boring in their eyes. ALthough my sons seem to be really proud of me. Anyway….. I just like to be alone it seems.

Where am I, I don’t know Vince, I have almost finished the latest meeting and listened to the last one too. I enjoy them and resonate with a lot of it. I dont think I can be as eloquent as you and the Brits and the Americans, I am happy so many more are coming on.


So I am at this place of getting it all intellectually as you know, but not having shifted because “I would know it” and I dont seem to know it. I have a lot of physical tension, I have a lot of I think repressed anger, thats where I am , and Im not sure how to proceed. What you said in the meeting about how the LU approach of looking for the I is not exactly how you approach it, I completely get what you say, I see that it’s all thoughts and stories. theres nothing more than than that. It’s like for me now, it’s either being caught up in the stories, but usually recognizing they're all thought stories, or there seems to be vast expanses of my life that just flow through without a self even being aware of. More of a day to day approach and dealing with that. Much more freedom in some ways. Yet, there are these feelings (which underlay the thoughts) and they nag at me. Discontent, self judgment, fear etc. But thats just part of THIS too I know. So see through the illusion of self, where I am is clinging , desire and aversion, avoidance , perhaps I should be in a fetter group Vince?

And I’m just kind of fed up, I still have so much seeking energy. Yet I long to end this thread and move to a next phase, still with the group and LU and all that of course, but I feel stuck. I still feel scattered in my life still, pulled in many directions, dissatisfaction, I feel judgements and fears in all walks of life. I feel the world strongly , all that is going on, politically, a, financially , all of it. I feel the shortness of life.

There is resistance to what is and I recognize that, big time. AS you can see Vince, Im all over the place
If I had to pick an energy that I feel is the most prevalent now, i wold say it is avoidance. Of everything. And distraction and
Procrastination.


now I’m rereading our last post and replying to anything that comes up.

I like your idea that acceptance of what is can be helped but the thought that wanting to be somewhere else , or resistance let’s call it, is robbing me of appreciation of tHIS. Thats true. I know too that there are many times that I do appreciate THIS.
Its like a dichotomy,

After awakening Vince what changes did you notice in the body if any?

Hmm, can't remember any specific changes. Certainly the daily (or more) bout of frustration/anger wasn't there anymore. (it still occurs maybe monthly)

Right, so that’s definitely what is NOT happening with me, I would say the daily bouts of frustration anger are more there than ever. I try to sit into it, I am not getting any clear insights. Perhaps I also avoid it. So far all that has come up that I think MAY be a portal is what I was telling you about bodily stuff, repression, tension, how I cant even seem to get that shaking TRE thing that everyone who tries it seems to easily be able to. The link I sent you.

So, ok, Im done, this was all over the place, Vince where do I go from here, I need help, I really do.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Diana,

Let’s get this thread going again shall we?

Yes

I have been a bit delinquent with it.

Do you mean that you're feeling guilty? (or what?)

Time is flying

It does that (even though...)

the last couple of weeks have been very busy, such is life. Now this week, sons in town, brother coming soon etc. Lots to do.

life does that..

Yet I procrastinate on much .

Something that has evolved here is that I let life decide what is next. ..and amazingly, it all works out fine. No decisions, no choices, no control. Just do what's in front of me. (including what's in the calendar)

I have a level of guilt in me that although i love eve

I just like to be alone it seems.

ryone,I seem to value and enjoy my alone time the most, and quiet.

Me too. Is the guilt that you think that you're not as important as them? (or what?)

I just like to be alone it seems.

That sounds pretty healthy to me. Inane talk can be exhausting.

I dont think I can be as eloquent as you and the Brits and the Americans,

So what? (you always seemed eloquent to me)

perhaps I should be in a fetter group

Not yet. Let's get the 2nd fetter (doubt) out of the road first.

it is avoidance. Of everything.

Ok, this is a protective mechanism. It has your best interests at heart (even though it's misguided) We need to create a safe environment where you can let that animal (inside you) burst out. (see messenger)

with love and compassion

vince

[Trinidiana]

Hi there

Nah I didn’t feel guilty , but that is because I know you don’t judge. An interesting question would be if I knew that you did get upset with me for not being always consistent , then would I feel guilty, and the answer is probably yes.

I am much more letting life guide me too, on a personal level I find this freeing. However external life in terms of possible financial meltdown , rise of fascism, does , let’s say disturb my harmony though I know that it’s beyond my control. I am very aware of the divisions that are getting stronger in this world. I don’t know, perhaps it is a reflection of the individual. But what is the individual anyway?

I am also aware that all that I just said is just a story. Perhaps just being aware of the fears that this brings up is the key

is the guilt that you think that you're not as important as them? (or what?)

No not at all, it might be more related to pleasing them I guess, but then I guess one could then say what you said about not being important , I don’t know. It’s a feeling that if I don’t give I am selfish maybe , or like what’s wrong with me, shouldn’t I like to be with loved ones ? And I do, just that I like it in small doses

Ok, this is a protective mechanism. It has your best interests at heart (even though it's misguided) We need to create a safe environment where you can let that animal (inside you) burst out.

Yes I think I have a lot of protective mechanisms. Let’s do it

[vinceschubert]

'evening Diana,

it might be more related to pleasing them I guess,

This would seem to be a key.
Is it seeking approval? Wanting to be liked? A fear of disapproval? Fear of a physical response? Something else?

vince

[Trinidiana]

Hi Vince.

Just a Quick one, haven’t had much to post and we have talked

I thought I would mention something , I think kind of funny and wanted to see what you thought

Recently, I find that my anger comes quicker, but also goes right away.

Two big examples. I recently, like maybe two months ago got my first pair of contact lenses for distance, it’s quite a learning curve to be able to put them in. Of course now it is already easy to do but at the beginning when I was trying to do it and the contact lens kept sticking to my finger over and over, I swear I had a complete rage in my bathroom. Like shouting , cursing it’s like I went ballistic. I was so angry and all the time I’m kind of watching myself and realizing that wow this is pretty intense and then it was over and I was able to laugh about it.

Yesterday, I was trying to use my vita mix blender which I now realize had a problem to make my own coconut milk for a soup I was making, so I had all the dried coconut in there, filled it with water, well, it was a complete disaster because it started to leak and then by accident I pressed the high button instead of off and little bits of grated coconut flew EVERYWHERE over the kitchen, I’m laughing now, just relating this to you But a the time, I was so mad , I had a full on rage reaction, cursing at the blender like a mad sailor, kept shouting at it and calling it a mother F&@*er! Again, as I’m experiencing all of this, I am aware that it’s crazy. the dog and cat probably think I’m crazy , so there is some part of me thinking perhaps I should calm down, but again the rage came, and it was big, and then it was gone and all was well, writing this now it reminds me a bit of your story with the golf club. It was entertaining to watch it all play out.



Well I’m not sure why I felt the need to relate all of this but I did so there lol.
Have a nice day or evening.
XOXO.
Diana

[vinceschubert]

my anger comes quicker, but also goes right away.

Oh boy, I can relate to that.
In my case, it went so quickly and like you it even seemed humorous quite quickly.
It wasn't until I met the fetter model that I realized that getting triggered like that revealed an opportunity for more work (deepening) It probably fits in with fetters 4 & 5 (desire and aversion)
For the moment, it's appropriate to simply see it as THIS and have no opinion about it, although it invites examination.
See you around your 5:30 pm Friday (today?)

with love

vince

[Trinidiana]

HI Vince

Okay. So, where shall we go from here?

I am in a different space however I still can’t say for certain a shift has occurred, though I feel I basically grok everything

Xoxoxox
Diana

[vinceschubert]

Hi Diana, tell me about that space...

love

vince

[vinceschubert]

Hi Diana, After watching you entertain yourself with Paul and Jenni on the video recording (after I left) it came to me that your blockage (to awakening) is likely fear.
Fear of something happening if you awaken.
So here's an experiment to shine light on this possibility;
I want you to behave AS IF you are awake.
That is I want you to respond to stories that would be present if you were actually awake.
i don't mean fake it. You are allowed to continue to believe that you aren't 'there yet'. You recognize the stories that you respond to. You recognize those of them that are about not yet being awake. These ones are to be replaced by stories that you are awake and then responded to AS IF they were the primary story.
They will likely produce some uncomfortable feelings. Remember that feelings are sensations plus stories.
If we can identify the stories, we will be able to identify the blockage and deal with it.

with love

vince

[vinceschubert]

Let’s run through these questions and see if there’s anywhere that needs further investigation.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

[Trinidiana]

HI Vince

I think I’m ready for these questions. I think I’ve been for a while but there was resistance. It’s slowly begun unfolding over time, and specifically this year. Call it serendipity , a story I like, but the thought came yesterday to go onto Ilona’s Marked Eternal blog because I remember that she had a start here page where she lays it all out, how to see through the illusion. Obviously I have read it before and have read hundreds of threads, but I decided to write and do her process, which took me much of the day. Then at the end she lists a whole bunch of her threads with people. I randomly picked one (serendipity) and it was as if I could have written it. Anyway it may have given me the final push, you and the other guides I guess will be the judge.

I will try to keep my answers brief.

1)

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No, there is and there has never been a separate entity, self, me, I , doer, director, organizer, soul, little being in the head, in any way , any shape or any form whatsoever. It was only ever imagined.


2)

Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

The illusion of this self is a core belief that came into being in early childhood for us all, when we are taught language by our caregivers. Animals don't have this. By necessity, language , which humans are wired for, is dual and made up of subject and object in order to communicate. When we are taught to describe or label the world around us, the labeling leads to the labeling of a separate ‘being” which we call “I”. It’s incredible that literally the word ‘being’ which is itself a verb is turned into a noun, a subject, we become a ‘being” and so does everyone else. Human ‘beings”. Every single thing in our culture and society reinforces this sense of self for our entire lives, everyone believes it as if it’s true and then religion and even spirituality reinforce it even more. I see why Vince always says CULTure, it really is almost like a cult as we have all been indoctrinated into believing in the specialness of the separate I. For example, “ Living my best self, my soul, the real me, the higher self” , it’s all built up for all of us since so very young, movies, songs, everything, and because life requires an identity for logical practical purposes, we are given this name and identity that follows us our whole life and we take to be so real, with so many so caught up that they literally spend the present thinking of their legacy. It is mad! We are taught to compete with other selves and to try to be the best, smartest self, and to please all these other I’s . We are even taught that our essence , this real I or our precocious soul is invisible and cannot be seen , but that it indeed real and so we never ever question it until we do. This sets up a yearning and seeking within some of us since sense we are living a lie which at some level we kind of know we are, we feel like imposters. We sense the I is phony and seeking begins which sadly usually reinforces the I even more.

I will answer

give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion

in 3 since I feel it makes more sense there.

3)

How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels a relief to see this because I see clearly that it’s an illusion , a lie basically , and it always feels good to see reality , it feels lighter, even though in another way you just cant’t believe that you have been conned your whole life by your own self created prison ,which actually was wide open and unlocked the whole time. Ha! I would say that my life has been changing slowly since starting this dialogue years ago, of course on one level I see that there is nothing that really was found since the I was a trick, a mere thought, never even there, pure imagination, but in ‘time” I have just been able more and more to see the thoughts play out, the stories , working with Vince and listening to others made me realise that the only thing stopping me from waking up was the story that I wasn't awake because I had seen though everything else. This became very clear yesterday in writing and working through Ilonas process. For me the biggest thing, was actually seeing that since ‘I’ is so clearly a thought, (even though I intellectually knew that already), but really seeing that a thought cannot think , like looking in direct experience, just helped finally break though the illusion. A sense of me is still there but that is fine , it in no way means that there is any real I. That’s just part of what is happening and it’s all just a happening.

Also I would say the big difference was also seeing that expectations were holding me back, specifically ‘hope’, for peace, for less suffering, which I saw was just another expectation, and just more thoughts, that they aren’t useful, that the hope for peace, for less anxiety are just also stories, and I saw clearly that ‘thinking’ I didn't have that peace was just a story, just more thoughts, and I saw that by continually having this expectation of something different and the story that I didn't have it was exactly what was keeping me wrapped up in mind and blocking freeing ‘myself” from the illusions. I realise that language here gets so tricky But I was in a loop , a mental loop. Ilona’s comment that all suffering is built on unfulfilled expectations really hit me. And that I could drop these expectations and then resistance stops. I saw that seeking is a story too and that to engage in these stories is just more daydreaming and thinking, taking me out of direct experience. I see that so much of the time I was continually saying no to what is, pure resistance. “Thinking” it should be different. I spend a lot of time resisting reality and I am sure I will continue to an extent but now I can see through it and it falls away.


4)

Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?

My inquiry has been a long process as is obvious by the length of this thread. There was no specific epiphany though I have mentioned some specific portals that opened for me in question 3., also over the last few months there has been a feeling of being close. I think that working with Vince, watching the zoom meetings and then yesterday really digging into the process and specifically writing it all down was just the final ‘getting’ it. But seeing really that there was nothing to get, there really is not gate. I feel more peaceful and free, less encumbered , more confident in just being in truth .

5)

a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

Everything just happens, somehow , and its quite a mystery. A human’s conditioning and life experiences result in actions and intentions and stories and emotions which result in more actions, stories etc and the process just goes on and on, part of the process is the labeling and naming and thinking that there is control of decisions, that there is choice and control but once it is seen there is no doer, this all falls apart and its seen that its just THIS, it’s just whatever, its just Life happening. The thinking that there is control is an illusion , decisions are just made, actions just happen.

This morning was a good example for me, as I woke up an hour late and had to get to my pilates class in thirty mins if I was to make it. When I woke and realised the time there was a rush of thoughts and emotion as I realised I had ten mins to get ready and leave the house, but then a calmness kind of ‘descended’ and I went though the motions and it all went fine and I arrived with five mins to spare, even though I got every traffic light. I have no idea how it all happened but it did, just perfectly. Life is seen as a flow.


b)

What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

I respond , but I am not ‘responsible’ in the normal sense of the word (Vince, here’s one for you we are respons-able) since there is no entity controlling anything, it’s all just a thought that there is a controller, an addition we put on with a label, all thought. However this is not to say that responsible and right and even wise actions don’t happen all the time, but like breathing or other bodily functions, there is no controller, or breather or ‘I’ responsible for anything. The mystery just plays out. Sometimes regretful actions and decisions happen. But it is all just happening.



6)

Anything to add?

I would just say that its obvious that this plays out differently and perfectly for everyone and for some it may be an instant or an epiphany but for me and I feel that for many it is just a shift in perception, just slowly the illusion loses its grasp. Life is the same but different. I am very grateful for this forum and that Ilona started it, and thank all the people who are helping others wake up and it is my hope that more and more will see through. Vince thank you for never giving up on me. It is a never ending process and I know that the unfolding will continue for the rest of my days. I am excited to keep exploring instead of seeking.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Diana, one guide asks "How do you know a separate self isn't real?"

with love

vince

[Trinidiana]

How do I know a separate self isn’t real?

Ultimately I know nothing for sure, of that I am certain, which sounds like an oxymoron, lol, much is a mystery, but I see the separate self as being as real as any other thought, which is to say , that the thought itself exists , well, ‘thinking’ happens anyway, so the thought of I does exist or thinking there is a separate self does exist, but the content of thoughts aren’t actually real. And since it’s seen clearly that I is nothing more than a thought, a label, and a thought doesn’t itself think, it doesn’t point to anything real at all. No more real than a useful label and a name. It’s no more real than saying the wave is separate to the ocean because it looks and appears like it is. We do refer to waves as if they are separate because it’s useful in language, but the wave is the same as the water and is not separate from it in reality. It’s no different also to imagining an apple , trying to eat it, you can’t, because although it might feel for a moment that you can bite into it perhaps if you are a good visualizer, maybe your mouth would even water, and that body sensation as direct experience would be real, but its clear that there is no apple to bite into.

Similarly the separate self as ‘I” is just a thought, and definitely this leads to stories and actions, somehow, destructive and constructive, just like the body can have a visceral action from visualizing a delicious fruit, but like a house of cards , the story of the separate I that is supposedly the agent all comes toppling down when it is seen that all this is happening without any actual separate self, that it’s just a labeling that comes after the decision or action or emotion or whatever has happened. But really it is just a thought of a separate self, an illusion that we take to be so real. I like how Ilona referred to it as a misunderstanding. Exactly.

Sorry if that was long winded , to end, I would just say that its clear that yes, sensing happens, thinking and feeling happens, but when looked at , directly, it is seen that there is no separate self or doer of any of the happenings of life, it’s just happening just fine without any agent.