There is nothing

[CrystalBeach]

Hi again Dion,

How are you doing?
Everything ok?

Doing well, things feel a bit lighter overall. Earlier you made the suggestion to be really familar with the sensations of anxiety in the body. Allowing these sensations to be here and move around seems to let them go.

Experiences started for who/what?

Hmm now I'm back to the who or what is the self, that earlier I said I couldn't find. The self from the perspective of a physical baby was born and it has a collection of organs and a nervous system. It feels like something is looking out through the eyes and has experiences. I don't know what that something is or where it is.

Jana

[Dion]

Hi Jana :)

Allowing these sensations to be here and move around seems to let them go.

Glad to hear it :)

Hmm now I'm back to the who or what is the self, that earlier I said I couldn't find. The self from the perspective of a physical baby was born and it has a collection of organs and a nervous system. It feels like something is looking out through the eyes and has experiences. I don't know what that something is or where it is.

The baby, the physical body, etc. are all things that are experienced.

1- But experienced by what?

The self from the perspective of ...

Perspectives change, and there are a million different ways to describe, or speculate about, reality.

Our work here is to become utterly accustomed with what really is. Not the stories or the ideas. So, what we're doing is very, very simple. What can you perceive? Check and check again. Is it always so? Then , it is true.

So, we look at thoughts, the body, and experiences, minus the stories, meanings and values associated with them.

In your first mail to me you answered;

[When I am realised].. I will not be identified with the story of me, but I will really see (not just have a concept) but really feel the sense that I don't exist.

You will really see, not just have the concept, that you really don't exist.

2- When you look for the one who witnesses/experiences, (stories and concepts aside) what do you find? Do you get the same result every time?

As for a video meeting time, how about 5pm your time Tuesday evening? (That'll be 8am Wednesday my time.)
Do you have Skype?
My Skype name is "licketystick".

Dion

[CrystalBeach]

Hello again,

1- But experienced by what?

In direct experience, there is nothing found that is experiencing.

2- When you look for the one who witnesses/experiences, (stories and concepts aside) what do you find? Do you get the same result every time?

There is nothing found and the result is the same every time. So every time I "look" it's the same. Does "looking" all the time just become what's happening?

As for a video meeting time, how about 5pm your time Tuesday evening? (That'll be 8am Wednesday my time.)
Do you have Skype?

Yes 5PM tuesday central time works for me - my Skype name is jana.currin

look forward to seeing you :)
jana

[Dion]

Hi Jana :)

Does "looking" all the time just become what's happening?

By "looking", I mean perceiving. Witnessing. Experiencing. And its always happening. I would say it's the only constant.
By that, I mean experience comes and goes, happiness, sadness, hot, cold, agitated, relaxed, etc. The only constant in that is the experiencing of it. The witnessing of it.

Would you agree with the above?

When I say "looking", I mean actively directing attention to some aspect of experience. Like "looking for" something.


There is what can be perceived, namely, Reality, and then there are stories.
Bearing in mind that this method of "direct looking" is concerned only with what can be perceived, and you are unable to find anything that is doing the experiencing, what does that tell you?

[Dion]

And, see you tomorrow :)

[CrystalBeach]

Hi Dion,

Thank you so much for meeting on video, I appreciate your insights. I mostly took a bit of a break or rest from "this" spent the day finding anything to distract from the moment and from the sensations. My mind is trying to figure out why this isn't working so then I read the gateless gatecrashers and noticed some patterns.
The idea that something needs to be done first before it's allowed to drop the self and see - like some responsibility. The idea that somehow it's not deserved or that its irresponsible to "do this". Like something is going to maintain some control-it appears like holding on to doubts. You didn't use the word "shadow" work but I guess that's the word I would use - like there is this deep shadow of shame and guilt and somehow that has to be "dealt with" first, that I'm just trying to use this to bypass it, deep dark "wrong's that need to be made right.

I know part of the agreement is to not follow other practices - I bought the book No self, No problem and had just started reading it when I started the guiding. Is it OK to read things like this or do you have other pointings/recommendations.

Thank you
jana

[Dion]

Hi Jana :)


The whole thing about "shadow-work" was more of an aside about managing discomfort, than a recommendation for approaching liberation.
You don't need to release anything or become lighter or freer, or a better version of Jana in order to see the Truth.
It has nothing to do with self-improvement.

As for reading books, I recommend that you don't. No books, no videos. Just immediate direct perception.
It's information for the mind to work with, as if it's going to help you to become realised. It won't. It can't.

Here's some recommendations..

1- Sit quietly, with an attitude of non-action. If anything happens, fine. But you don't actively initiate anything.
Wait for something to happen, thought sensation or emotion. Pay special attention to thought.
Try to find and witness the birth of a thought.

2- Boredom- Who/What is bored by the prospect of boredom? Does it have any validity? Who needs liberation to be interesting or exciting?
There is the recognition that all experience is automatic and there is one "one" who is perceiving it, but there is still strong identification with some feelings and some beliefs.
Only you can recognise what these are.

3- So, you need to sit and watch/feel, with the understanding that NOTHING that arises can be claimed.
I'd like you to do this, and describe everything that you are privy to.

Dion

[CrystalBeach]

Hi Dion,

I'll continue with this tomorrow, but here are initial observations.

1- Sit quietly, with an attitude of non-action. If anything happens, fine. But you don't actively initiate anything.
Wait for something to happen, thought sensation or emotion. Pay special attention to thought.
Try to find and witness the birth of a thought.

Sat quietly a couple of times during the day, when witnessing the birth of thought - the thoughts just appeared, like I couldn't capture the birth or first thought, by the time I noticed that thought, well there was a narrative about the previous thought. but the thoughts just disappear and more thoughts show up.

2- Boredom- Who/What is bored by the prospect of boredom? Does it have any validity? Who needs liberation to be interesting or exciting?
There is the recognition that all experience is automatic and there is one "one" who is perceiving it, but there is still strong identification with some feelings and some beliefs.
Only you can recognise what these are.

will continue looking at this, perhaps will write more tomorrow on it. There is a very clear sense that everything is automatic, but a strong identification that some how some feelings and beliefs are "unique". Will continue looking tomorrow this is helpful.

3- So, you need to sit and watch/feel, with the understanding that NOTHING that arises can be claimed.
I'd like you to do this, and describe everything that you are privy to.

This is a very helpful pointing, I would like to sit and watch this more tomorrow and then will post again.

Thank you so much Dion - these pointings are very helpful. I had a few things to do today (car repair and some consulting work). So I would like to stay with these pointings again tomorrow if that's ok.

jana

[Dion]

Thanks Jana.
I'm glad there seems to be some useful points there. Looking forward to hearing from you tomorrow :)

Dion

[CrystalBeach]

Hi Dion

1

- Sit quietly, with an attitude of non-action. If anything happens, fine. But you don't actively initiate anything.
Wait for something to happen, thought sensation or emotion. Pay special attention to thought.
Try to find and witness the birth of a thought.

Definitly just saw thoughts, emotion and sensation just come and go. Nothing stays around for very long at all. Thought was just "there"- there is nothing that can find the birth of a thought.

2- Boredom- Who/What is bored by the prospect of boredom? Does it have any validity? Who needs liberation to be interesting or exciting?
There is the recognition that all experience is automatic and there is one "one" who is perceiving it, but there is still strong identification with some feelings and some beliefs.
Only you can recognise what these are.

There is no one that is bored, it doesn't have validity. It's just a thought - a thought comparing experiences with others.
Yes there is still identification with some particlar feelings or beliefs. Can you talk a little more about doing things like shadow work being a way to manage discomfort and how to separate this from seeing liberation? When there is still identification with some particular set of thoughts and doing work can help manage discomfort- is that just something that continues on? It's a little hard to word the question. Is it the same as, before liberation, chop wood, carry water, do shadow work. After liberation chop wood, carry water, do shadow work.

3- So, you need to sit and watch/feel, with the understanding that NOTHING that arises can be claimed.
I'd like you to do this, and describe everything that you are privy to

When sitting and watching with an understanding of Nothing to be claimed there is a recogniton of a lot of thoughts around blaming and trying to control a situation. After each few minutes of sitting or noticing this attempt to claim and looking at that directly, those thoughts and sensations of clutching in the chest would fall away very quickly.

Jana

[Dion]

Hi Jana :)

Thanks for your replies.
I hope you're doing ok.

there is nothing that can find the birth of a thought

1- What does that mean, exactly?

There are times when there are thoughts, and there are times when there is an absence of thoughts. At what point, in what way, by what mechanism do thoughts come into being? It is possible to witness the birth of a thought. I'd like you to, and recommend that you attempt to, witness the birth of a thought.

Can you talk a little more about doing things like shadow work being a way to manage discomfort and how to separate this from seeing liberation?

Is it the same as, before liberation, chop wood, carry water, do shadow work. After liberation chop wood, carry water, do shadow work.

Before Liberation, it was felt and believed that the chopping and carrying and working were the responsibility of an individual. After Liberation, Sometimes the chopping and carrying and working feel very easy and free and automatic. Sometimes they arrive with feelings of burden and stress or dissatisfaction, etc. But the need to modify that experience of unpleasant thoughts and feelings weakens over time, because it is clearly seen and realised that these things happens by themselves, and are the workings of a higher power/the one/ Infinity, etc.
Sorry, not sure if that makes sense, seems a bit convoluted. But do you get what I mean?
Don't hesitate to ask for clarification if it's unclear.

If there is an urge to act to modify an experience, and that urge is acted on, that's fine. But if possible, you want to pursue that urge consciously.
Consciousness liberates. That's the whole of it. How available is consciousness to what is happening?
The more consciousness can be brought to bear on any experience, the faster liberation proceeds.

Dealing with Emotional and psychological issues is all good. It's fine and good.
But why not rather bring consciousness to bear on the source of all suffering, instead? The source of all suffering being the sense of self and individuality, and the mind.

After each few minutes of sitting or noticing this attempt to claim and looking at that directly, those thoughts and sensations of clutching in the chest would fall away very quickly.

Great. Very good. The falling away of those feelings is good.
But don't stop there. Keep looking, feeling. What can you detect? What kind of subtle feelings can you detect? Whispering thoughts that usually pass unnoticed? Every single thing that you can be aware of as an experience. Consciously experience those things. This is pretty interesting stuff. It's an exploration of the fullness of experiences that constitute "Jana.

Phew! Long winded! Sorry! :)

Dion

[CrystalBeach]

Hi Dion,

I'm doing well, how are you?

there is nothing that can find the birth of a thought
1- What does that mean, exactly?

Yes there is thought, the space between and there is a sense or witness that observes the thought arise. So there was the birth of thought through the senses. For example, hearing a bird sing. There is hearing and then a thought arises to label it as a sound coming from a bird and then further thoughts about that thought. Thoughts also arising when the mind wants to plan or solve a problem. Some other "sense" notices the thoughts arise.

But why not rather bring consciousness to bear on the source of all suffering, instead? The source of all suffering being the sense of self and individuality, and the mind.

The light came on here! :) The suffering I spoke about previously with my son and this shame about what kind of parent I was, and relationships etc.. I can see how I'm trying to fix something that doesn't exist and this "trying" is really a source of suffering, and this trying creates a "brokeness" that is easy for the mind to hang on to and identify around. I visited my son with this intention of there was nothing to claim and no one or nothing to fix... and it was just such a different vibe. There was no guilty parent and victim son in the room, rather there was talking about hobbies and jobs and dogs and grandparents and plan for tacos next week.

Sometimes they arrive with feelings of burden and stress or dissatisfaction, etc. But the need to modify that experience of unpleasant thoughts and feelings weakens over time, because it is clearly seen and realised that these things happens by themselves, and are the workings of a higher power/the one/ Infinity, etc.
Sorry, not sure if that makes sense, seems a bit convoluted. But do you get what I mean?

yes, I don't need further clarification here..

But don't stop there. Keep looking, feeling. What can you detect? What kind of subtle feelings can you detect? Whispering thoughts that usually pass unnoticed? Every single thing that you can be aware of as an experience. Consciously experience those things.

Today when sitting there was a feeling of frustration and "you'll never be liberated" and a story of aahh just quit.. your not good enough, just tell them you don't want to do this. There was an experience like squirming around.The story of your not good enough, your a quitter is story the mind likes to create this victim story of jana. After a awhile it all just seemed silly and dramatic. Throughout the day I just saw so many rules, beliefs, constraints that I use to try and control or make things safe. And it's also seen that its exhausting and impossible.

Jana

[Dion]

Hi Jana :）

Yes, there is nothing there.

I can see how I'm trying to fix something that doesn't exist and this "trying" is really a source of suffering, and this trying creates a "brokeness" that is easy for the mind to hang on to and identify around. I visited my son with this intention of there was nothing to claim and no one or nothing to fix... and it was just such a different vibe. There was no guilty parent and victim son in the room..

All good :) Just bear in mind, who is "trying"? Who witnesses the trying?

Today when sitting there was a feeling of frustration and "you'll never be liberated" and a story of aahh just quit.. your not good enough, just tell them you don't want to do this. There was an experience like squirming around.The story of your not good enough, your a quitter is story the mind likes to create this victim story of jana. After a awhile it all just seemed silly and dramatic. Throughout the day I just saw so many rules, beliefs, constraints that I use to try and control or make things safe. And it's also seen that its exhausting and impossible.

Excellent :) More of that.

Dion

[CrystalBeach]

Hello again Dion!

Just bear in mind, who is "trying"? Who witnesses the trying?

Ah wow.. are you saying, "what the heck could be trying??!!"

jana

[CrystalBeach]

Hi Dion,

The seeking energy has dropped significantly. Will report on how life unfolds today.. later :)

jana