Looking for nothingness

[PeterO]

Hi Luchana,

What is the direct experience of "ego"?
What is "ego" when it is looked at here now?

It's just thoughts who believe themselves to be a someone. A Peter in this case.
I can't see a direct experience of an ego. It is more like an idea.
There is a body, there are thoughts, emotions and sensations but thats it. There is no more then that what I can see. The ego is not possible to experience here right now. Just emotions, thoughts and sensations.
Its like a laughing and crying at the same time when I am looking. But very mildly now. Its just hilarious. Going around believing there is a me. But then again it feels like nothing is changing if there is no me. What is here will still like chocolate and fast cars :)
Only there is less story of a someone who needs this and that to be happy. Everything always is as it is... And can not be any different than it is.

And how memory is experience here now?
As something real which can be touched, smelled, seen?
Or as a content of thought?

It is content of thought. Just like fantasy. Produced in the head in the moment and then gone. It can produce images, sounds, sensations and emotions.

s there someone or something responsible for the programming?
A controller of the programming/conditioning?

Haha, no :)
Its just evolving, no different from plants and animals. No programmer. No boss. No God. Everything is God or Creation and it is just happening to no one. Life is impersonal.
Looking at it right now "I" can "see" that this is how it is and there are also thoughts that this is memory. It is both.

Is there an expectation that identification will stop happening/appearing once the illusion is seen trough?
Why? This is why it is called illusion :-)

Yes!
There is expectations of being happy as a child and laughing for no reason and being content for no reason. And it happens every now and then but it did happen more often some time ago. But I can not remember when I last suffered. Oh, actually I can. It was about 2 months ago but it tok me a day and then (with some help from a friend who is awake) I just laughed like a child when I realized I could just leave, and leave the story that I had to do something.

So I guess the expectation is there because it has happened many times. And what I can see is that it always happens when Peter is not there. The identification is gone.
So yes, there is a believe that there is a possibility to be open and relaxed with no identification. And there is also an understanding that if that will happen it will happen and there is no rush. The plant will grow in its own pace according to its programming and so will this person also do. Nothing to worry about.

But this is a very interesting subject. Things will happen as they will happen. Life happens as it does. Still there is a feeling that if I don't do anything I might not reach the "goal". And at the same time I can see that life will happen as it happens and I can just relax in that. Nothing to "do". It feels like both are true...?

Cheers :)
Peter

[Luchana]

Hi Peter.

It's just thoughts who believe themselves to be a someone. A Peter in this case.
I can't see a direct experience of an ego. It is more like an idea.

Can a thought do something for example to believe itself?


And yes, the word ego can't be experienced other that an idea, a content of a thought. Because there is no such real thing as ego here in reality.
There are words which point to real things like tree, glass, table, there are other words which describe something bit can't be found in reality - like university or port. And there are other words which point to nonexistent things - like Santa, Batman, Self../ ego.

Can you clearly see that?

What is here will still like chocolate and fast cars :)
Only there is less story of a someone who needs this and that to be happy. Everything always is as it is... And can not be any different than it is.

Yes, preferences stay the same.
By the way what did you precisely for there to be liking a chocolate and fast cars?
Did you voluntary choose that? When? How?

Looking at it right now "I" can "see" that this is how it is and there are also thoughts that this is memory. It is both.

Great! Look - Is there an expectation that thoughts will stop occurring?

Yes!
There is expectations of being happy as a child and laughing for no reason and being content for no reason. And it happens every now and then but it did happen more often some time ago. But I can not remember when I last suffered. Oh, actually I can. It was about 2 months ago but it tok me a day and then (with some help from a friend who is awake) I just laughed like a child when I realized I could just leave, and leave the story that I had to do something.

Right. And to be like that 24/7?
Without any other emotion or sensation?
No sadness, no anger, no irritation?

From what I can see in my experience - freedom is not from, freedom is WITH.
Of course it is natural for us as humans to desire more pleasant emotions and avoid no so pleasant ones, but real liberation means to embrace them all.
Also there are wounded places, emotional triggers which are different for each of us. These are not going away once the illusion is seen trough. These will need further looking and exploring the pattens and how conditioning is playing. Usually it is easier and in a way inevitable - when there is nothing on the way that, repressing them.
It is easier because when the strong emotions/sensations come there is nothing or nowhere to stick to.
However if there is a curiosity to explore that you will be able to see how it plays in your own direct experience. Seeing trough the illusion of a separate self is just the first, but crucial step so to speak.

How does this ring for you?

Sending love,
Luchana

[PeterO]

Hi Luchana,

Can a thought do something for example to believe itself?

No, the thought is just a line of words in the head…

And yes, the word ego can't be experienced other that an idea, a content of a thought. Because there is no such real thing as ego here in reality.
There are words which point to real things like tree, glass, table, there are other words which describe something bit can't be found in reality - like university or port. And there are other words which point to nonexistent things - like Santa, Batman, Self../ ego.

Can you clearly see that?

Yes, I can see that but sometimes I get caught in story in the head and have a habit of believing there is a me. As soon as I look I see there is no me. It's just when I am stuck in story which I rarely am nowadays but it happens.

Yes, preferences stay the same.
By the way what did you precisely for there to be liking a chocolate and fast cars?
Did you voluntary choose that? When? How?

I did not choose this, it just happen to be so. I am programmed that way.

Great! Look - Is there an expectation that thoughts will stop occurring?

Yes and no. Sometimes.
There is not an expectation that thoughts will stop occurring but there is an expectation that the identification with the thoughts will stop. I guess it have stopped a little bit but sometimes not.

Right. And to be like that 24/7?
Without any other emotion or sensation?
No sadness, no anger, no irritation?

I understand that all kinds of emotions can arise but I can’t see how I can be identified with them for long times anymore. For ”who” is the emotion happening? If it happens it can’t be personal since the person is fiction.
So how can it last when it is seen that it happens to ”no one”?
Last time I felt a little bit of emotional pain in the body (a girl that came hand in hand with another guy) I immediately saw it and felt it and then it disappeared or I dropped it.
Sure, I can get tired and a bit irritated but I don’t stay there because then I suffer for no reason.
So maybe I do not expect to be happy for no reason all the time but yes, I do expect to not suffer anymore. Only physical suffering in the body which I do have every now and then, back and neck pain.
I can also understand that the expectation is creating suffering because i don't accept things as they are in each and every moment. So this is something i look at when it arise, if it arise.

From what I can see in my experience - freedom is not from, freedom is WITH.
Of course it is natural for us as humans to desire more pleasant emotions and avoid no so pleasant ones, but real liberation means to embrace them all.
Also there are wounded places, emotional triggers which are different for each of us. These are not going away once the illusion is seen trough. These will need further looking and exploring the pattens and how conditioning is playing. Usually it is easier and in a way inevitable - when there is nothing on the way that, repressing them.
It is easier because when the strong emotions/sensations come there is nothing or nowhere to stick to.
However if there is a curiosity to explore that you will be able to see how it plays in your own direct experience. Seeing trough the illusion of a separate self is just the first, but crucial step so to speak.

How does this ring for you?

Yes, this rings very true to me. Everything that is here in each and every moment is what it is. Accepting what is here is always key.

I am with a guru in Australia right now so my answers will take some time. Have so much fun with this guy :D

Cheers
Peter

[Luchana]

Hi Peter,

Yes, I can see that but sometimes I get caught in story in the head and have a habit of believing there is a me. As soon as I look I see there is no me. It's just when I am stuck in story which I rarely am nowadays but it happens.

Ok, let's look here:

How that one which stuck is experienced exactly?

I did not choose this, it just happen to be so. I am programmed that way.

What is a programme?

When the bird flies - this is programme or this is what's happening in reality?

An idea that you are something separate and small and needs to be taken care of is a programme or reality?

So maybe I do not expect to be happy for no reason all the time but yes, I do expect to not suffer anymore. Only physical suffering in the body which I do have every now and then, back and neck pain.
I can also understand that the expectation is creating suffering because i don't accept things as they are in each and every moment. So this is something i look at when it arise, if it arise.

Right. When you say "body" what do you mean by that?
What is the direct experience of a "body?

Sending love,
Luchana

[PeterO]

Hi Luchana,

How that one which stuck is experienced exactly?

It is seen that there is a trail of thoughts that is not true, just a story. In reality it just is what happens, there is no one there. Just the story and feelings and emotions.

What is a programme?

When the bird flies - this is programme or this is what's happening in reality?

An idea that you are something separate and small and needs to be taken care of is a programme or reality?

Hmm, a program is the conditioning. All the experiences that have come to this point in time that, the sum of it all makes up how I react, what I like and so on. Impersonal. No choice.

When bird flies it is reality as it is. When I do things it is the same. And at the same time it is programmed, the birds are aslo conditioned, evolved according to their environment. Reality is like a program that constantly evolves.

The idea that I am something separate and small is also the program, the conditioning. But what I think is not reality, it can be reality if I think of what is exactly in front of me but it is not reality if I am lost in fantasy, story. But if that happens that is what is happening so then that must be reality, or?

Right. When you say "body" what do you mean by that?
What is the direct experience of a "body?

The direct experience of a body is sensations that is experienced like kinesthetic, visual, auditory and gustatory. There is a body that experiences and most of all I connect to the body with kinesthetic and other sensations in the body, like feeling the breathing, my heart beating, pulsations and vibrations.

Cheers
Peter

[Luchana]

Hi Peter.

The idea that I am something separate and small is also the program, the conditioning. But what I think is not reality, it can be reality if I think of what is exactly in front of me but it is not reality if I am lost in fantasy, story. But if that happens that is what is happening so then that must be reality, or?

:-) If you kick a wall agains you - there will be a real sensation or imagined to be real?


And how the one that is separate and small is experienced EXACTLY?

Does it exist in reality or it can be found only as a content of a thought?

The direct experience of a body is sensations that is experienced like kinesthetic, visual, auditory and gustatory. There is a body that experiences and most of all I connect to the body with kinesthetic and other sensations in the body, like feeling the breathing, my heart beating, pulsations and vibrations.

Right.
And is it the body experiencing or the body is also experienced?

sending love,
Luchana

[PeterO]

Hi Luchana,

:-) If you kick a wall agains you - there will be a real sensation or imagined to be real?

The sensation is real.

And how the one that is separate and small is experienced EXACTLY?

As thoughts about sensations, impressions and emotions. And thoughts about thoughts...

Does it exist in reality or it can be found only as a content of a thought?

It can only be found as content of thought. It does not exist in reality.

And is it the body experiencing or the body is also experienced?

This is a very interesting question.
The body is experiencing but it also feels like there is an experiencer. But when the mind is silent there is only experience, it is impersonal. No experiencer, only experience. Very strange.

Cheers
Peter

[Luchana]

Hi Peter,

As thoughts about sensations, impressions and emotions. And thoughts about thoughts...

What is the difference between a thought and content of a thought?

The one that supposedly is small and separated from the rest
is it REAL or it is a content of a thought - IMAGINARY?

Sending love,
Luchana

[PeterO]

Hi Luchana,

What is the difference between a thought and content of a thought?

Not sure if I understand this question. A content of thought is seen when looked upon. A thought is just happening and might be identified with or not. I don't see any difference.

The one that supposedly is small and separated from the rest
is it REAL or it is a content of a thought - IMAGINARY?

It is imaginary but the habit might make it feel real. As soon as it is looked upon it is seen to be imaginary.

Cheers

[Luchana]

Hi Peter.

Not sure if I understand this question. A content of thought is seen when looked upon. A thought is just happening and might be identified with or not. I don't see any difference.

All right. How would you explain to a 5 years old child that her/his friend is imaginary, not real?

It should be very simple, so simple that the child can understand..

It is imaginary but the habit might make it feel real. As soon as it is looked upon it is seen to be imaginary.

Right. But the moment we look - it is obvious.

Is there an expectation that the habit will stop once and for all the moment illusion is seen trough?


Sending love,
Luchana

[PeterO]

Hi Luchana,

All right. How would you explain to a 5 years old child that her/his friend is imaginary, not real?

It should be very simple, so simple that the child can understand..

Haha, this is a very good one :) The mind is like and imaginary friend...
I would ask the child if she can see it or touch it. If the child says yes, I would ask her to show me. Then I would compare with a real person for her to see the difference.

Is there an expectation that the habit will stop once and for all the moment illusion is seen trough?

Yes. There is an expectation that the identification will stop. Right now it is on and off. Sometimes very identified and sometimes no identification.

Cheers
Peter

[Luchana]

Hi Peter,

I would ask the child if she can see it or touch it. If the child says yes, I would ask her to show me. Then I would compare with a real person for her to see the difference.

Nice catch :-)

Yes. There is an expectation that the identification will stop. Right now it is on and off. Sometimes very identified and sometimes no identification.

Mm, good that the expectation is exposed here.
Can you look

What it is EXACTLY that sometimes is identifying and sometimes not?


Sending love,
Luchana

[PeterO]

Hi Luchana,

Mm, good that the expectation is exposed here.
Can you look

What it is EXACTLY that sometimes is identifying and sometimes not?

I feel a fear arising when looking, but just briefly.
When i keep looking I just sense beingness.

It is the ”space”, the indescribable, beingness, awareness itself. No, actually it is more like beingness forgets itself and than thoughts take over. Story hides beingness.
So is it the thoughts that are doing the indentifying or is it awareness itself? It must be the thoughts as awareness is just there.
So if I practice to just come back to "this", what is here, put awareness on awareness, and allow anything that arises, that should do the trick :) ?

I'm laughing a bit now because it is like a game of hide and seek, but the awareness is here all the time so how can it be hidden :) And suddenly a story of whatever comes along and comes to the foreground and awareness forgets itself... Tricky but actually now I can not see how I can forget. Because now I see it. But I remember it was not seen just a few moments ago...

Thank you Luchana :)

[Luchana]

Hi Peter,

I feel a fear arising when looking, but just briefly.
When i keep looking I just sense beingness.

Thank you for sharing that with me. Fear is a protective mechanism and is doing its job very well.
If it shows up again:
Can you look curiously BEHIND the fear - what is there?
What is fear protecting?

So is it the thoughts that are doing the indentifying or is it awareness itself?

What can a thought do?
Can a thought do identification?

What is awareness when you look at here now in this very moment?
As about awareness - it is ok to use words to describe the experience, but
Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?

Sending love,
Luchana

[PeterO]

Hi Luchana,

Can you look curiously BEHIND the fear - what is there?
What is fear protecting?

Just awareness.
Fear is protecting the imaginary self.

What can a thought do?
Can a thought do identification?

A thought is just words in the head, it can not do anything except affect other thoughts.

A thought can not do identification, it is just words. It feels like identification but it is just forgetfulness of what is truly there. The belief in the imaginary self.

What is awareness when you look at here now in this very moment?

When looking in to awareness I laugh and cry at the same time, it is not describable. It just is.
I cry a little bit, do not really know why but it does not matter. Some sorrow that comes up, no story behind it.
Now I am laughing instead, just looking in to awareness.
Stillness
Expansion
Silence
Joy

As about awareness - it is ok to use words to describe the experience, but
Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?

It is just experience, in each and every moment. When I look in to awareness, that is the experience in that moment. Just experiencing.

So when I experience that the imaginary self suffers, that is just the experience and when I experience stillness, that is just the experience.

Thank you :)
Peter