Inquiry

[Sabine]

Hi Jon

Did any thoughts appear whilst this was going on?

Yes. On one hand just thoughts that came up about any random topic. Sometimes I got lost in the stream of thoughts and as soon as I noticed I returned my attention back to hearing, here and now.
On the other hand thoughts about the exercise came up. I don't remember exactly. Maybe some comments about what I hear.

With this first exercise we have made a start. Actually I can only suggest effective pointers to the extent that you let me know of moments when false identification has been happening for you. In particular instances that seem frustrating or annoying or confusing Does that make sense?

Getting up and going to work early in the morning is very frustrating for me.
Being in public transport with a crowd is very uncomfortable for me.
Are these two examples useful? There are many more.

I know the relation between thought and feeling. Depending on what I think, I have a better or worse feeling.
I can see/understand to some extent that false identification shows up more in instances when anger, frustration and so on comes up. But It isn't totally clear for me.

Kind regard

Sabine

[JonathanR]

Hi Sabine

. I can see/understand to some extent that false identification shows up more in instances when anger, frustration and so on comes up. But It isn't totally clear for me.

But that's quite helpful to notice. Could they both show up together?

.Yes. On one hand just thoughts that came up about any random topic. Sometimes I got lost in the stream of thoughts and as soon as I noticed I returned my attention back to hearing, here and now.

Thank you . About these thoughts, would you say that they were making hearing happen, or were they something else, something extra as it were, added on to the hearing ?

. Getting up and going to work early in the morning is very frustrating for me.
Being in public transport with a crowd is very uncomfortable for me.
Are these two examples useful? There are many more.

These are great examples! Thanks We may take a look at these if we need to. Just for now though I'd like to know about those thoughts that turned up during the hearing exercise.

All best,

Jon

[Sabine]

Hi Jon

Could they both show up together?

Together, do you mean both false identification and negative emotion?
I guess they can show up together.

Let's say someone has a strong identification with his opinion. If someone opposes or criticises his opinion, he could react with anger or aggression, because he feels attacked as a person. If someone confirms or agrees with his opinion, he could feel happy, due to his identification. If his opinion isn't touched at all, he won't react.
If he wasn't identified with his opinion, he wouldn't react in a strong way either.

So one could say that a negative reaction reveals the false identification?

About these thoughts, would you say that they were making hearing happen, or were they something else, something extra as it were, added on to the hearing ?

No, the thoughts weren't making hearing happen. The thoughts weren't added on to the hearing either. The thoughts simply appeared and went by besides the hearing in the same way as hearing and seeing can happen at the same time.
Even if the thoughts destracted the attention from hearing, hearing was still happening , I would say.
I had one thought about the ears being like portals where the sound enters and disappears. But this is just a thought and has nothing to do with the direct experience of hearing.

Kind regards

Sabine

[JonathanR]

Hi Sabine

. No, the thoughts weren't making hearing happen. The thoughts weren't added on to the hearing either. The thoughts simply appeared and went by besides the hearing in the same way as hearing and seeing can happen at the same time.
Even if the thoughts destracted the attention from hearing, hearing was still happening , I would say.
I had one thought about the ears being like portals where the sound enters and disappears. But this is just a thought and has nothing to do with the direct experience of hearing.

Great. Thank you.

Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing?
Try preventing thoughts from appearing.

Is it possible to create a thought? Try originating a thought.

(Thanks also for your answer to the other question but I would like to know how you get in with this question on preventing or creating thoughts).

Jon

[Sabine]

Hi Jon

Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing?
Try preventing thoughts from appearing.

No, it's not possible. I can try and stay without a thougth for a short while. But very soon, another thought will appeare. I can also try to keep my attention to senses, still very soon a thought appears. To prevent thoughts directly is impossible. There's no tap to turn off the stream of thoughts. If I try to actually prevent them, a picture af my hands suppressing something appears, which is another thought.

Is it possible to create a thought? Try originating a thought.

No, it's not possible. Thougths seem to appear, emerge, pop up out of nothing. Trying to create one brings up thoughts and pictures about how this could work. Building one with my hands? Putting one together from pieces? These are just more toughts. Actually creating one is impossible.


Kind regards

Sabine

[JonathanR]

Thank you Sabine

Very clear answers. Yes. This is how it's experienced here too. Impossible to prevent thoughts and impossible to create thoughts . Yes. There can be thoughts about preventing thoughts or about creating thoughts but those don't seem to be preventing or creating them.

Important. Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing, including the thought "I"?

Kind regards

Jon

[Sabine]

Hi Jon

Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing, including the thought "I"?

Since „I“ is just another thought, it isn't possible to prevent it from appearing. Also, when I have the intention to prevent the thought „I“, this thought is right there. Like „Don't think about a pink elephant.“ The „I ...“ might be replaced by rephrasing it after it appeared, but it can't be prevented from appearing.

Kind regards

Sabine

[JonathanR]

Hi Sabine

. Since „I“ is just another thought, it isn't possible to prevent it from appearing.

Very true that it can't be prevented. However there is something else to this.

What on earth is going on that, despite finding that thoughts cannot be created by a "me" the very thought "I" nonetheless appears and cannot be prevented from appearing?

Jon

[Sabine]

Hi Jon

What on earth is going on that, despite finding that thoughts cannot be created by a "me" the very thought "I" nonetheless appears and cannot be prevented from appearing?

Yes, that's funny. The „I“ claims to be in control of thinking, to think deliberately, yet any thought containing „I“ obviously isn't created nor prevented by „me“. The thought „I“ bursts like a soap bubble.
The thought „I“ seems to be a lie. It definitely isn't tied to the sensed „I“. Or does it reveal the sensed „I“ to be an illusion? It's not completely clear for me right now.
I'm still not sure why you point to the fact, that the thought "I" cannot be prevented.

Sabine

[JonathanR]

Hello Sabine

. It definitely isn't tied to the sensed „I“. Or does it reveal the sensed „I“ to be an illusion? It's not completely clear for me right now.

It's important to look at your experience. Certain tensions in or around "the body," energetic sensations do appear. For example if I start to place my foot in the road to cross over but a van suddenly appears rushing towards me there are likely to be "strong" energetic sensations and even involuntary jumping away movements. If it is noticed at the time there may well be "I" thoughts appearing that reference "saving myself" (or other self-referencing thoughts. These thoughts or mental images do not need to be phrased using the exact word "I" to still reference an assumed "me").

Are "I" thoughts definitely not tied to the sensed "I'?

I would have to ask you what you mean by "the sensed "I" ? Perhaps there are sensations that are interpreted as "an I that is sensed"? Is that close to what you mean?

. I'm still not sure why you point to the fact, that the thought "I" cannot be prevented

Well, we notice that it is not and cannot be a separate "self" that creates these "I" thoughts ...but that creativity does seem to be happening regardless. Isn't that interesting? A creativity that cannot be prevented ...and which creates an ongoing illusion?

All best

Jon

[Sabine]

Hi Jon

It's important to look at your experience. Certain tensions in or around "the body," energetic sensations do appear.

This seems to be difficult for me. I didn't notice any tensions in my body.
I have to look at this next time.

Are "I" thoughts definitely not tied to the sensed "I'?

I don't know. They just seem to have no real base.
Maybe they are tied to the „I“, although not created by it. And „I“ is an illusion anyway. So they are tied to what? I don't know, it's confusing.

I would have to ask you what you mean by "the sensed "I" ? Perhaps there are sensations that are interpreted as "an I that is sensed"? Is that close to what you mean?

I did not write clearly. I meant the false self, no sensations.

Well, we notice that it is not and cannot be a separate "self" that creates these "I" thoughts ...but that creativity does seem to be happening regardless. Isn't that interesting? A creativity that cannot be prevented ...and which creates an ongoing illusion?

Yes, I agree.

I am a bit lost now. I hope I am going about all this in the right way?

Sabine

[JonathanR]

Hi Sabine

Do not worry. You can't get this inquiry "wrong" and confusion is allowed and actually can be the beginning of moving to clarity

. This seems to be difficult for me. I didn't notice any tensions in my body.
I have to look at this next time.

I mentioned these because you mentioned "the sense of self". You may not have noticed or experienced what I described and that's perfectly ok. But this is why I went on to ask you what you meant by this phrase.

.
I did not write clearly. I meant the false self, no sensations.

But just as "the false self" sounds as though it might be a "thing" , "the sense of self" also sounds like a sensing entity.

I know you corrected your language but I feel that there is "something" here to explore here that could be worthwhile .

Kind regards

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Sabine


Please don't be put off by what I have said. I'm here to help and to encourage you to keep investigating.

Of course I could be completely wrong and not understand you correctly but it looks to me that you have a strong command of non-dual speech. You know how things ought to be expressed so that they are in line with your conceptual understanding of no self. But in spite of this there does appear to be some assumption of an entity. I know this is in contradiction to your conceptual understanding and that may explain the confusion you have mentioned?

Tell me what you think of what I have suggested?

If you are willing we can take a look at what may lie behind "the false self" and "the sense of self" .

Best wishes

Jon

[Sabine]

Hi Jon

But just as "the false self" sounds as though it might be a "thing" , "the sense of self" also sounds like a sensing entity.

I know you corrected your language but I feel that there is "something" here to explore here that could be worthwhile .

I meant that self almost everyone is identified with and walking around with. I cannot tell whether this is a sensing entity or not. I am not sure how to explore this.

When I read the book Gateless Gatecrashers and some threads in this forum, I could easily follow the instruction to look at sensations and thoughts. When it gets more subtle, I have a hard time.

Sabine

[Sabine]

Hi Jon

Please don't be put off by what I have said. I'm here to help and to encourage you to keep investigating.

Since I had this glimpse of no self so easily, I was excited to do this inquiry. Also to be guided by someone who entered the stream is fascinating.

But I guess this glimpse did not come out of the blue. Since last May last year I did a course in miracles. Thanks to this I practised almost everyday. In addition I have attended online satsang-meetings also since last year. I guess this practice has prepared the ground for this glimpse.

I don't want to give up so quickly. But maybe I should take this glimpse as a gift and return to my practice.

Of course I could be completely wrong and not understand you correctly but it looks to me that you have a strong command of non-dual speech. You know how things ought to be expressed so that they are in line with your conceptual understanding of no self. But in spite of this there does appear to be some assumption of an entity. I know this is in contradiction to your conceptual understanding and that may explain the confusion you have mentioned?

Except for that glimpse, I still have „my normal, false selfe“. When the inquiry is about thoughts and sensation, I can follow it. With other questions I simply don't know what to do.

If I keep not getting even what I should do, then maybe it simply is not the right path for me.

I would like to continue and see what happens.

Sabine