Ending the constant searching

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Diana,

You must be sorry I’m back

Hahaha.No. I'm really pleased that you persist.

Accepting THAT WE DON'T KNOW if it will ever happen.

I'm being pedantic here, but I think that it's important that you grasp the difference between what I was asking and what you answered. I'm not asking you to consider that it might not happen (or might) We are talking about what we know - or don't know.

And it did make me smile to think you think I’m close

On both our parts, these are only thoughts. Do you give my thoughts more credibility than your own?

I think I started off with the feelings of ‘I dont know ‘ but then inadvertently got to feelings of it will never happen. Interesting, all the mind.

Somewhere in there you were triggered. Sit with those thoughts ("I'll never succeed") and see if a very young you felt the same.

What comes first? the thoughts or the feelings?

This is a very hard one and I dont think I know the answer.

The best place to look for answers is in experience. ..and when you do this, try to identify where the feelings are and how they feel without labelling them.

memories are strange aren’t they because really they are just more thoughts at that moment.

Hmmm, I don't know.
i have read that memories are not stored as complete sequenced events, but rather they are created from disparate impressions in the brain. ..and remembering that our perspective of the world is a brain function that includes feelings as well as thoughts (& all sensations) then it suggests that they are more than just thoughts. (but I don't know)

I absolutely still think of them as somehow connected to Diana

Yes, they definitely are connected to the HAPPENING called Diana. Are they connected to a self though?

then the seeking is dropped,

I know that you know that they are only words, but seeking isn't dropped (as in there is a decision to stop) it just falls away. Just as I find reading about spiritual stuff interesting (mostly) There is no decision not to read. It just happens.
..but yes, it's seems that it is common after awakening.

Yes agreed but I think we have clearly established that I identify at least to a pretty large degree with the feelings and thoughts , even though I can witness them, even though it is seen that they happen and arise naturally, ‘’ still feel they are connected with me,

Ok, examine this. the part where you "feel" connected.
What is connected with what?

Ok, I hope to see you tomorrow

Yes, I hope so too.

with much love

vince

[Trinidiana]

Hi Vince

Missed a couple days, sorry, back to our conversation. First I should add that the Sunday talk was very good indeed and I think everyone really got a lot out of it. It’s amazing how many similarities they are in all of us. It encourages me to know and interact with people involved in this inquiry.

First, to answer the questions from the last post…

I'm being pedantic here, but I think that it's important that you grasp the difference between what I was asking and what you answered. I'm not asking you to consider that it might not happen (or might) We are talking about what we know - or don't know..

I for sure understand, I just got carried away and triggered.

On both our parts, these are only thoughts. Do you give my thoughts more credibility than your own?

No, I dont but I do respect your opinions

Somewhere in there you were triggered. Sit with those thoughts ("I'll never succeed") and see if a very young you felt the same.

I think I was triggered because I started to contemplate if I never get it and I felt hopeless. I couldn’t find if a very young me felt the same but I am sure that I must have. There has been a lot in life the feeling perhaps that things work for other people and not for me. Like most people, there are areas I am secure in and others not at all. There is definitely a degree of frustration that I am taking so long and that i wish it were not so, as futile as I know this is . Hopelessness and frustration again comes to mind as the feeling. Almost a giving up. I have given up on some things in life actually, that’s a whole other can of worms though.

The best place to look for answers is in experience. ..and when you do this, try to identify where the feelings are and how they feel without labelling them.

I have a hard time doing this in general , I just know I have a lot of tension, which I feel somehow covers up the feelings or is as a result of them. Some of my tension I see is how my family is and how I was raised. I also know that like most people, this sense of self, and where I feel I am perceiving from is very centered in the head, I would assume because that is where the brain is physically located. When people talk about physical contraction as opposed to expansion, I can relate, I never feel spacious or relaxed really. I think this needs to be really looked at.

i have read that memories are not stored as complete sequenced events, but rather they are created from disparate impressions in the brain. ..and remembering that our perspective of the world is a brain function that includes feelings as well as thoughts (& all sensations) then it suggests that they are more than just thoughts. (but I don't know)

Very interesting, I have not heard this but do agree that memories do seem different. I would think they are thoughts but structured differently in the brain somehow , but still at a fundamental level are thoughts. What is interesting is how faulty memories can be, how two people will have different memories of the same event, how they shape a persons thinking and current self construction. Mass collective memories and generational trauma, all that, very interesting .

Yes, they definitely are connected to the HAPPENING called Diana. Are they connected to a self though?

So, they are connected (all in the mind of course) to the happening called Diana and then the ownership comes in, they are connected to the ‘self’ only in the sense that the self is just a construction of all these thoughts , I can see its all stories including the ownership story. That was helpful that you asked me that.

I know that you know that they are only words, but seeking isn't dropped (as in there is a decision to stop) it just falls away. Just as I find reading about spiritual stuff interesting (mostly) There is no decision not to read. It just happens.
..but yes, it's seems that it is common after awakening.

Yes when i said dropped I meant fallen away, I know its not conscious. It just obviously drops because the seeking energy is coming from the ownership and identification . I get that its the you that tries to drop the you which makes no sense so when seen through would obviously not be there . I’m thinking of the story where the lion who thought he was a sheep saw his reflection, from that moment the identification with being a sheep was evaporated forevermore . He didnt have to practice roaring or anything like that lol, he ‘knew’

Yes agreed but I think we have clearly established that I identify at least to a pretty large degree with the feelings and thoughts , even though I can witness them, even though it is seen that they happen and arise naturally, ‘’ still feel they are connected with me,

Ok, examine this. the part where you "feel" connected.
What is connected with what?

To ponder this seems so silly, connected with ‘me”, it’s just thoughts connected with thoughts, somehow they are patterns of conditions like grooves that over years have been formed in my mind, but that also makes no sense, the grooves too are illusions, its like illusions upon illusion, patterns within patterns.

I would say though physically the connection is linked with contraction and tension , have you ever heard of Trauma Release Exercises by the way?

To go of off on a tangent that I am hoping might be useful, remember when I asked my question to Angelo and he said perhaps I should try something different, well after in an interview with someone he gave, just listening, she talked about this therapy , I have heard about it before, its based on the principle that animals will shake and release trauma and all that whilst humans are taught to cover it up. Something resonated with me due to my chronic tension and since then I have tried via you tube and cannot experience any shaking at all. Are too aware of this, I can give you a great link if you want, there are many on youtube but two in particular explained it beautifully. Anyway, since then I keep getting this feeling that a lot of these feelings and fears for me are within the body, so that if I dealt with that it could be helpful. As opposed to getting in to the stores and all of that. I am trying a class on Friday with someone who does zoom calls, I will let you know how it went. Its always back to the clenching f the fist with me, all that is needed is to unclench , which takes no doing really

The other thing I have unsuccessfully so far for the most part been trying to do is to ‘rest’ or relax in awareness. Not like in as if awareness is a thing, but I am trying to rest in the space where there is no thought, I cant control thoughts obviously but I know that since this cant be ever got with the mind, its to notice the gaps or the place where even for a glimpse, there is no thought, just aliveness, with no labeling. Hope that make sense

Xoxxo

Diana

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Diana,

Missed a couple of days, sorry,

Me too. Not sorry. Wondered what thoughts arose about it for you?

the Sunday talk was very good indeed and I think everyone really got a lot out of it.

Yes, and your input was valuable to others.

There is definitely a degree of frustration that I am taking so long

Has frustration happened or is Diana frustrated?

I never feel spacious or relaxed really. I think this needs to be really looked at.

Agreed. We will...

its to notice the gaps or the place where even for a glimpse, there is no thought, just aliveness, with no labelling. Hope that make sense

Yes, absolutely. ..and good stuff.

with love

vince

[Trinidiana]

Hi Vince

Me too. Not sorry. Wondered what thoughts arose about it for you?

Ha, I’m not really sorry, just saying it because I respect your time and also because I was trying to get a more consistent dialogue going. I just thought you were busy to be honest, or maybe had missed my reply.

There is definitely a degree of frustration that I am taking so long

Has frustration happened or is Diana frustrated?

Language again, there is frustration happening, which has a judgement emotion along with it, so it gets all tangled up with identification of Diana .

its to notice the gaps or the place where even for a glimpse, there is no thought, just aliveness, with no labelling. Hope that make sense
Yes, absolutely. ..and good stuff.

I see more and more that it’s so much just seeing what already is, and that what is beyond thought is always here and needs nothing. There is still often the restlessness that there is something I need to grasp, to get, the mind is always wanting to be used too, this I notice big time.Eveything that is thought is from the point of view of the character.

What shall we explore next?

I just read this in something I am reading

‘All is already OK as it is. The ‘I’ that would do something is seen through. As the search to do something, to try to change it in any way, falls away, then ease or peace is not manufactured or created‌—‌it’s what is already the case anyway and is simply obscured by the mesmerisation’

Maybe this life is all mesmerisation

Ok bye for now my friend
Diana

[vinceschubert]

Hey Diana,

I just thought you were busy to be honest, or maybe had missed my reply.

I was too tired. Part of me wanted to tell you this but another part knew that you wouldn't take it personally.

there is frustration happening, which has a judgement emotion along with it, so it gets all tangled up with identification of Diana .

Well, you just weakened that.
Here's a good one that I picked up from Pernille; "expectations are an indication of victimhood."
What is your take on that?

There is still often the restlessness that there is something I need to grasp, to get,

It just hit me as I read this line. This is avoidance behavior.
It is expressing dissatisfaction with the present. ..and that restlessness is the urge to do something to change THIS.
Of course, I might be completely wrong about this. You will have to look next time it happens.

Maybe this life is all mesmerisation

Yes..
Before people wake up, they think that when they do that TRUTH will shine from everything and everyone.
After waking up they realize that the dream that they woke up from is just a different dream than the one that they woke up to. (my story)

vince

[Trinidiana]

Hi Vince

Here's a good one that I picked up from Pernille; "expectations are an indication of victimhood."
What is your take on that?

I tried looking up Pernille , out of that pure curiosity and could find nothing. Who is that, not that it mattes?

So…. to that quote, well it is different , I am trying to process it.

My first instinct is the use of the term victimhood is because its about ‘me’, the character, and I suppose all victimhood if we really examine it, comes down to identification with character and with not wanting what is. (This directly leads into your next question I think, which is a big one)

If I have an expectation , then its a clinging or desire to an outcome “I” want and think is best, which may or may not happen, if the desired expectation result happens to align with reality we are pleased, but it all revolves around the character either way, without the character there could be no expectation and without the character there could be no victimhood. Thats pretty deep and something I never ever thought about before.

I can think of lots of scenarios, life is all about expectations and sure, many might well come to pass. Usually, it’s those that don’t that cause the problem, it’s when the expectation or desire or attachment or clinging doesn’t happen as expected, then there is resistance, rejection, disappointment and many other emotions. All revolve around the central character of me, thus in that way are victimhood. Delving even further into this strange at first quote on connecting victimhood with all expectation , I now grok it, because even so called positive results of expectations still have to do with the character, and would imply maybe dissatisfaction if it didn't turn out that way, so again showing it is all complete identification. It’s not being ok with the flow, with what may happen, has happened, with reality, its an arguing with what is, it’s the opposite of just THIS, of just IT’s WHATEVER ”

Wow, when I first read it I didn’t get it at all, and now upon examination I completely do understand it. (Unless I am completely off base which you will tell me ). But thats how i see it. An expectation is the opposite of ‘All is already OK as it is.

Getting back to the quote “

The ‘I’ that would do something is seen through. As the search to do something, to try to change it in any way, falls away, then ease or peace is not manufactured or created‌—‌it’s what is already the case anyway and is simply obscured by the mesmerisation’”

Expectation is mesmerisation, I see that now, and that expectations are only to do with the false self and so obscure reality. . thank you for that quote !

Damn Vince , I see how mesmerised and filled with expectations I am lol. Which is victimization and also leads to avoidance.


All this ties in so perfectly with

There is still often the restlessness that there is something I need to grasp, to get,

It just hit me as I read this line. This is avoidance behavior.
It is expressing dissatisfaction with the present. ..and that restlessness is the urge to do something to change THIS.
Of course, I might be completely wrong about this. You will have to look next time it happens

Absolutely Vince, it hit you totally right, this is what i have been I think trying to explain to you but probably not doing a great job. I feel like , in my life, I get it intellectually, and if I ‘practice’ mediation or mindfulness or whatever , tha’s fine, I can notice my thoughts and reactions, all that, but in day to day moments, there is avoidance of the moment because of boredom and wanting to stimulate the mind. It absolutely is expressing dissatisfaction with the moment and wanting to change what is THIS, I totally get this, but it doesn't make it any less powerful an energy in my life .

I swear, just yesterday, I was listening to one of the gazillion podcasts I listen to whilst going about daily duties, and I thought to myself ‘I wonder when Vince is not playing golf and is just in daily life, if he just listens to things to entertain his mind. I actually started to think about your golf and was going to ask you about it, like how would you feel if you didnt have golf, is there any character Vince there in it, would you be more bored in your life if you didnt have it, what other things do you do when your’e just doing daily activities, do you fill it with podcasts or noise, I thought all these things. I actually thought about how this character Diana seems to always feel the need to check news and political pundits she follows, listen to interesting science, health podcasts, shows , music etc, fill the silence with noise. All the time. Otherwise I am bored, what really is boredom, I think its restlessness and non acceptance of what is, it is huge with me and I know beating myself up and just trying to not “DO” it is useless. AVOIDANCE! How to avoid avoid avoidance, do yo see how silly that question even is?????

Even when I recognize this in the moment, say I am outside and I notice nature, I may indeed enjoy the silence for a bit, come into the body and senses, but then its back to distraction of the mind. It’s not that I am afraid of the silence with its perpetual hum, I love that too, but I go between wondering if it’s unhealthy all this avoidance or if it’s just part of what’s happening and that this mind wants to learn and be entertained and so that just is part of what is THIS too. I have been thinking about this a lot. Is this making any sense Vince? I hope so.

So I think it’s ‘auspicious’ that you brought up what you said , and do you see how it’s completely related to your expectations quote. I managed to see that any expectation is a resistance to THIS, to what is, that there is this continual restlessness to change THIS, to figure out the next thing, you are completely right about this, can you give me pointers to deal with this, should I deal with this or is just simple recognition enough. ANd you know even the quote I put in randomly ,ties in so well now that I am rereading it, I am mesmerised, this is so much the condition of people isn't it? People that have not woken up. Is saying to you Vince , help me become not mesmerised part of the mesmerisation? Whew, Going deep into the rabbit hole here.

What’s a simple answer to all this Vince, well….. I think this ended up to be an interesting exchange and before I was saying I didnt even know where to go next. It became clear this is where we should go, at least for now.

Before people wake up, they think that when they do that TRUTH will shine from everything and everyone.
After waking up they realize that the dream that they woke up from is just a different dream than the one that they woke up to. (my story)

What you say here, the before part resonates with me, I feel that if I wake up, the obscuraion of the natural non manufactured peace which I know is already there will be more apparent. That is my expectation Vince and I feel there would be more peace and freedom. Thats what I feel. I cant get the second line because I am not there. You live a differnt dream to me, or I will live a different dream when I wake up, so then where’s the truth? Is the woken up dream still just a dream, is not more free at least? You saying that is confusing to me and leaves me feeling a bit hopeless


Ok, thats it for today, this was a lot here, you will have a headache after all this. Talk tomorrow (hopefully)
Xoxo
Diana

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Diana,

I tried looking up Pernille , out of that pure curiosity and could find nothing. Who is that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M50-uDs1pPk I thought that you's met her at one of our meet ups. You will - she's great.

life is all about expectations and sure, many might well come to pass. Usually, it’s those that don’t that cause the problem,

What about the ones that do that reinforce the illusion of control, choice etc?

it’s the opposite of just THIS, of just IT’s WHATEVER ”

You are going to be such a good guide (when the time comes)

but it doesn't make it any less powerful an energy in my life.

Can we resist great energy? Can you stop the river with your fingers?
You can watch it. It's fascinating.. or you can use it...

when Vince is not playing golf and is just in daily life, if he just listens to things to entertain his mind.

As a kid I devoured a book a day. i haven't read a book for 11 years now. i don't watch spiritual videos. YouTube is for work. Some time each day fiddling with bonsai.
Doing this each night from about 10:30 on..

is there any character Vince there in it

Yes. Because I am with particular friends an appropriate role is adopted (not consciously) ..but! but it is seen to be what it is (if it is examined)

Otherwise I am bored

I am never bored. i also don't plan what I am going to do. Appointments arise, what needs attention will appear in front of me. With golf, without golf. No difference. There is always something in front of me.

what really is boredom,

This is another one of Pernille's. Boredom is aggression.
Tell me why?

How to avoid avoid avoidance,

What if you don't avoid it?

the obscuraion of the natural non manufactured peace which I know is already there will be more apparent.

Ok, we're jumping way ahead with this now, but anyway... Yes, it is already there, but not out there. That magic is in your perception,(the perceiving) not in the perceived.

I cant get the second line because I am not there.

Yes you can. Just squint a little.


with love

vince

[Trinidiana]

Hi Vince

Been busy but also feeling a bit down the last few days.

Oh I thought it was some famous person or something you were quoting, ok, no definitely didn't meet her, will check out her channel

What about the ones that do that reinforce the illusion of control, choice etc?

Well, I was examining victimhood, but in terms of an expectation that has a ‘pleasing” result, it tends to reinforce the illusion of control for sure. I dont think victimhood would be the right term, but maybe it wold reinforce doership, if one thinks the expectations somehow related to the character, which lets be honest is what happens to most.

but it doesn't make it any less powerful an energy in my life.

Can we resist great energy? Can you stop the river with your fingers?
You can watch it. It's fascinating.. or you can use it...

No I cant resist it, it’s causing a lot of suffering . I can feel myself grasping, yet I cant stop it, why do i try? I like the analogy of the stopping the river with fingers, impossible. So what then, confused. I watch it, I ‘guess’ it’s fascinating, I resist it, how can I use it, I dont know.

Thank you for your persona answers about my questions about boredom etc and if it exists in your life. ABout basically how you live your life in flow. Dealing with “whatever”, with “this, with what arises. Sometimes I can do this.

This is another one of Pernille's. Boredom is aggression.
Tell me why?

Huh? I have no idea why boredom is aggression. Upon examination of this thought, first I thought lol, this Pernille sure likesto use strong words like ‘victimsation’ and ‘aggression”. To me aggression implies anger, fighting, resisting, forcing your way onto something to change it to another way that ‘you” would prefer. Ok, well since I said I think boredom is not accepting what is , , I think I will stick with this definition, it is basically avoidance, with arguing with reality, and I can see how this could be then said to be aggression. Because its “fighting”, “forcing” “resisting”, or pushing one’s will using the character and ego to change what is, to attempt to mould it into what “you” desire, when looked at like this, I guess it is pretty aggressive.

But in the moment of boredom, I sense resistance, dullness and restlessness mostly. Not aggression. But it could be aggressive.

How to avoid avoid avoidance,
What if you don't avoid it?

Well then I will just continue to avoid and numbe and resist, no?

Your words were

It is expressing dissatisfaction with the present. ..and that restlessness is the urge to do something to change THIS.

So embrace the avoidance? I already am expressing the dissatisfaction and want things to NOT be the way they are , at moments, so just allow it? . Well then, I will continue ot be distracted, no? How is this helpful? I think I am missing something you are asking here.

Today I was a bit grumpy because I couldn’t sleep last night till really late. I went to the hairdresser with my mum. I was trying to show her something on a video before we went in that meant a lot to me, it was some peope singing a song in Trinidad for carnival (which I find myself really missing and nostalgic for this year), it meant a lot to me, and it was literally like 90 secs and she kept talking , she can never just enjoy the moment, it got me frustrated and annoyed and frankly a little hurt.

She then talked to me non stop like a kid, I was watching it all happen, she wouldn’t have realised anything because I was nice, but it was killing me inside and I was resisting so much, I jsut didnt want to be there etc.

We then went for a bite, it was nice, but because we cant talk about any state of affairs because of politics, I find there is not much to talk about, it always ends up being about my brother or England etc. It’s fine of course, just was painful at some level, and I saw myself resisting. I couldn’t avoid the feelings even if I tried. Which I didnt. It ended up fine but I thought it was just an example to tell you about.

In the restaurant I had gone to the bathroom, on the way out, a server ran straight into me bouncing me hard. She said “I’m so sorry, I wasnt paying attention”

It immediately hit me as a message that was meant for me, that I am not paying attention to something. Ha, that was my story anyway!! Who know, a strange day!

Xoxxo
Diana

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Diana,

feeling a bit down the last few days.

Oh good. There's an opportunity...

No I cant resist it, it’s causing a lot of suffering .

to paraphrase, "you can't resist great energy and it is causing suffering." Well, you weren't successful in resisting the great energy, but it was the attempt to resist it that caused the suffering. Not the energy.

how can I use it,

Next time it arrives, ask it what it is trying to show you.

Dealing with “whatever”, with “this, with what arises. Sometimes I can do this.

Excellent. If it happens at all, that says that the necessary brain superstructure is present. Good stuff.

But in the moment of boredom, I sense resistance, dullness and restlessness mostly. Not aggression. But it could be aggressive.

The final label doesn't matter. That you've examined it is all..

Well, then I will just continue to avoid and numb and resist, no?

Once avoidance is recognized, it there a softening, a letting go of that resistance?

I think I am missing something

Ok, remember way back I mentioned that the arising of unpleasant feelings was a clue that stories were being believed? (& to celebrate the recognition with a laugh)
Well, it may not be so obvious that boredom fits this too. (boredom is unpleasant, aye?)
There is a sequence of things that largely goes unnoticed. It is that something triggers something unpleasant and before we know it we are impelled into some activity to distract from it. Our habitual coping mechanism.
We want to widen the gap between the arising unpleasantness and the distracting behavior.
If we can sit in that gap, we can ask ourselves if there really is anything demanding that behavior.
This way we eventually don't get triggered anymore.

just was painful at some level, and I saw myself resisting.

Your mum may be your greatest ally in this endeavour. Stop thinking that it's about her. It's all you...

with love

vince

[Trinidiana]

HI there,

I plan to be at the meeting tomorrow, hopefully relaxed in my room and not walking this time lol

Once avoidance is recognized, it there a softening, a letting go of that resistance?

Maybe, but i still usually end up distracting myself, I’m just not beating myself up as much. Do you find that the more you live life this way, like in the flow, the faster it seems to go by?

Well, it may not be so obvious that boredom fits this too. (boredom is unpleasant, aye?)
There is a sequence of things that largely goes unnoticed. It is that something triggers something unpleasant and before we know it we are impelled into some activity to distract from it. Our habitual coping mechanism.
We want to widen the gap between the arising unpleasantness and the distracting behavior.
If we can sit in that gap, we can ask ourselves if there really is anything demanding that behavior.
This way we eventually don't get triggered anymore.

Yes. I understand, sometimes it just feels like pure distraction though, out of habit maybe, like say at a traffic light there is an urge to check ones phone, is it that something was triggered that was unpleasant? Why does the coping mechanism come into effect then? But I do get what you are saying and this is definitely what people do and numb all the time with distractions. Me included

Your mum may be your greatest ally in this endeavour. Stop thinking that it's about her. It's all you...

Jus came back from my Saturday outing with My mum , it was fine.

Well, I started to look at Pernilles channel, it is golden, I have ‘binged’ a lot actually. She mentions you and your meetings at times, also i watched one where she talked about expectations and victimhood. made perfect sense, I was on the right track. ANyay, they are very very useful indeed, what she speaks about biochemistry is very similar to you talking about recognizing and smiling or laughing and how it changes body chemistry. Interesting. I have to admit that whilst I do recognize, I still many times don’t necessarily smile or celebrate so I guess judgement must still be there.

Xoxoxo
Diana

[vinceschubert]

I plan to be at the meeting tomorrow,

Excellent. I'm looking forward to you meeting Pernille. She might just get a shift out of you...

but i still usually end up distracting myself,

Distracting yourself isn't the primary issue. Trying to stop it only leads to.... (you must get bored with me repeating this stuff)
What is a good strategy here?

Do you find that the more you live life this way, like in the flow, the faster it seems to go by?

Hmm, interesting.. i do often blithely say that the past has flown by, but your question provoked a different perspective. No, I just realized that time (almost) doesn't exist for me anymore.
yes, I put thing in my calendar, but there is no waiting for them to happen. The're an entry in the calendar and there not here now, then they are. ..or what actually is here is the happening of preparing to attend.

like say at a traffic light there is an urge to check ones phone, is it that something was triggered that was unpleasant?

Yes. ..but do check it out next opportunity.
What is the sensations if you resist looking at your phone?

I still many times don’t necessarily smile or celebrate so I guess judgement must still be there.

..and is that THIS also?

with love

vince

[Trinidiana]

HI Vince,


Long meeting today, insightful as even, some parts for me were more useful than others though.

I am interested in the fetter stuff, however I am wary to get too caught up with concepts and the intellectual , since I’ve been down that road and am enjoying my recent more stripped down stay with the present approach.

I am sorry I didnt meet Pernille, I am going to continue to watch her videos bit by bit, I actually right before the meeting today, watched a meeting she had on her channel that had you , Todd and a few others in it sharing your stories. I was interested to hear how much you also searched. It still gets me that you got the non scratching analogy which led to THIS IS IT! So, all this resonates with me. In that meeting, you said that you felt that the desire and the fact that you think it’s important to feel like ‘I am not stopping till I get this etc’ (which I have ) is necessary, but then of course the seeking is dropped because the seeker cant find it. I grok this yet its like I have not experienced it. It it is a little driving me crazy!!

So , when in today’s meeting, you talked about how you think you had done a lot of shadow work before, this is how I feel too which is why I don’t want at this point when I feel I’m close to get too caught up in a system, you know? Like I’ll take it slow with the fetters.

I feel for me, the answer lies in letting go, releasing,, unclenching, non clinging, etc, I feel there is an answer in the body , not necessarily going through what we were talking about at the beginning which sounded a bit too much like therapy which is fine, but for me again I dont think this will be the portal.

So then this leads me to Mark, who both last week and this week I feel is a gift to help this process and as I said, it’s like watching an awakening. There is no doubt in my mind, and the more he talks, that he has already had a shift.I am going to rewatch a few parts of the recording, what he said about stripping everything down and seeing through thought is useful , I can see how , for him, the seeking is dropping . So again, it all resonates with me, so much, and yet, Vince it’s Ike in day to day life I don’t know, the thoughts ‘mesmerize ‘ me. So I dont feel I have got like the thoughts unraveling so to speak upon examination. Also then everything he said about boredom, and you, again i get it and I dont get it cause it exists for me. Sometimes anyway.

Well, onto your questions for today.

Distracting yourself isn't the primary issue. Trying to stop it only leads to.... (you must get bored with me repeating this stuff)
What is a good strategy here?

Sigh, just noticing that I’m distracted, sitting with that, and maybe celebrating the noticing?

Hmm, interesting.. i do often blithely say that the past has flown by, but your question provoked a different perspective. No, I just realized that time (almost) doesn't exist for me anymore.
yes, I put thing in my calendar, but there is no waiting for them to happen. The're an entry in the calendar and there not here now, then they are. ..or what actually is here is the happening of preparing to attend.

You know, when I wrote and asked you this, I was actually thinking that more than just fly, it’s probably like time just doesn’t exist, because I kind of get that this would be how it is, because youre more in the moment and flow, where time which is really a concept does exist. Some days do feel like this a bit, then at the end of the week, I’m like good grief another week has gone by. I find time very elusive actually, because its like its not there its not there, then its here, then its gone. I understand what you were explaining

What is the sensations if you resist looking at your phone?

Ill have to check, usually what I do when I notice is bring my attention to my body or breath, and then the urge usually passes.

I still many times don’t necessarily smile or celebrate so I guess judgement must still be there.
..and is that THIS also?

Yes it is, of course, with intentions it will come, it does come many times, well the noticing anyway.

Well, I’m a bit brain fired, off to watch mum Caribbean girl Rihanna!!!

[vinceschubert]

Hi Diana, i'm on the road at the moment, so might be a little inconstant with my replies.

Long meeting today, insightful as ever, some parts for me were more useful than others though.

Of course. ..and what parts weren't useful today might be useful later. ..and what parts were useful might not be later. While you are seeking, everything that life presents is potentially useful. (to awaken)
After awakening it all becomes entertainment. (I've no idea how accurate this is for others, but even the shit here can be funny or intriguing.)

I am interested in the fetter stuff,

Well, you are working on the first (or second) fetter.

however I am wary to get too caught up with concepts and the intellectual , since I’ve been down that road

The fetters are concepts. Useful concepts to focus on more subtle 'selfing'. If we look at what they are pointing at we can avoid the "getting caught up" bit.

am enjoying my recent more stripped-down stay with the present approach.

Good. You know where the juice is.

I am sorry I didnt meet Pernille,

Me too. It will happen..

It still gets me that you got the non-scratching analogy which led to THIS IS IT!

Yes, it's mind-boggling to consider 43 years of seeking and an infinite other set of circumstances all coming together in that moment. Wow!

but then of course the seeking is dropped because the seeker cant find it.

No, that is not why seeking is dropped (here). Hmm, it is a little tricky to put into words..
Ha, i often say that the "why" and the "how" are endless (mental) rabbit holes. ..and here is was about to try the "why" when i encountered difficulties. Perhaps the "what" will clarify it. (let's try)
From memory, seeking felt like a yearning. There is an upward/forward expansion of the chest when i think of yearning. The head goes up and the looking is where an imagined horizon is.
Although i say seeking doesn't happen now, i found it interesting that i was able to conjour the physical/emotional sensations of it. This tells me that there is still some there, however subtle.
On a daily living perspective, there is no seeking or yearning evident. This is evident by the omission of thoughts of want or should. Everything that life offers appears to be evaluated by what it is, rather than by what it lacks.
Even shit is welcomed as an opportunity.
Seeking wasn't dropped. It just doesn't happen any more.

I feel for me, the answer lies in letting go, releasing,, unclenching, non clinging, etc,

This sound like where the juice is.
So rather than doing those things, what is a positive 'non-doing'' perspective to consider?

I feel there is an answer in the body

After discarding a couple of ideas, the thought of yoga had a satisfactory feeling about it.
Now, i imagine that you have done some yoga, but every teacher is different.
i had a friend that i would sometimes do Salute the Sun with. He would do six rotations before i had finished a half round.
So, when i imagine yoga helping you, i imagine that you do it really slowly, with the attention on those areas that inhibit stretching. When they are located, then they are watched for stories that emanate. No judgment or opinions. Just watch.

usually what I do when I notice is bring my attention to my body or breath, and then the urge usually passes.

Ok, this is fetter stuff. The process is that you feel uncomfortable then you do something to alleviate that.
So the first alleviating behavior is to look at your phone.
When you deny yourself that, you revert to the second alleviating behavior which is to focus on body or breath.
Instead of running from the initial discomfort, you sit in the gap and observe. Looking for where the juice is (that's the third time that phrase happened.) We don't want the discomfort to go. We want to keep it and even stimulate it so that it can be seen clearly.

with love

vince

[Trinidiana]

Vince. Thank you for your last post, I will get back to you in a day or two as I have something going on and I know as well you are on the road, Talk soon
Xoxxo

[Trinidiana]

HI Vince

Hope you're enjoying your trip, whatever it is. This weekend and next week Monday and Tuesday is carnival in Trinidad and I wanted to go there so badly but couldn’t , so I have major FOMO lol. Actually it’s been interesting to watch the clinging and thoughts arise and see how it is all thought based, also how without thought there can be no ‘missing’, no suffering. Since social media makes it worse right now, I am not looking at anything until Ash Wednesday. Mind mind mind stuff. Arguing with reality. I will lose and only ALWAYS!

After awakening it all becomes entertainment. (I've no idea how accurate this is for others, but even the shit here can be funny or intriguing.)

I can see this, not there at this point, but more so I would say

Yes, it's mind-boggling to consider 43 years of seeking and an infinite other set of circumstances all coming together in that moment. Wow!

This gives me chills , isnt is amazing how ‘everyone’,though there really isnt a self has a unique different experience, I liken it to snowflakes, everyone unique, so many infinite variations yet really just a part of one mass of water vapor appearing in so many different infinite and unique forms. Has every snowflake that ever existed been different, that is so mind boggling? I will ask chat GPT the answer to that one lol. Actually that brought to mind another concept, isn’t it true that there is always the exact same amount of water on the planet, just continually transferring all the time, different locations and different forms, ice, snow, lakes, ponds, oceans, rain, sleet, snow , clouds etc. Wow , I thought of an analogy lol.

but then of course the seeking is dropped because the seeker cant find it.

No, that is not why seeking is dropped (here). Hmm, it is a little tricky to put into words..
Ha, i often say that the "why" and the "how" are endless (mental) rabbit holes. ..and here is was about to try the "why" when i encountered difficulties. Perhaps the "what" will clarify it. (let's try)
From memory, seeking felt like a yearning. There is an upward/forward expansion of the chest when i think of yearning. The head goes up and the looking is where an imagined horizon is.
Although i say seeking doesn't happen now, i found it interesting that i was able to conjour the physical/emotional sensations of it. This tells me that there is still some there, however subtle.On a daily living perspective, there is no seeking or yearning evident. This is evident by the omission of thoughts of want or should. Everything that life offers appears to be evaluated by what it is, rather than by what it lacks.
Even shit is welcomed as an opportunity.
Seeking wasn't dropped. It just doesn't happen any more.

I feel the need to copy and quot this whole portion, another one that would be great in the Vince book ha ha. Beautifully put. I beleive your habit when you were young of reading a a book per day paid off in that you are great with words.

So I didnt word it right what I meant. I meant that I intellectually am aware that whilst the seeking energy is strong and I seem to have no control over it, I recognize, again intellectually that seeking will never be able to ’get’ this because it cannot be ’got’ with the mind. That in the seeing of ‘this’, of which i do get glimpses , seeking is not there, it’s useless, a dud, pointless, I believe this is why Mark has been finding that seeking is dropping effortlessly.Cause it will , its not the right tool. Yet it does seem to happen in many and may be even a prerequisite. Weird, another mystery and paradox.

SO what you are saying and I think what I get is It’s not like you drop it , it just drops, kind of likejust releases ,like the fist naturally just unclenching, its not a doing of the dropping, it just doesn’t happen, am I correct?

Seeking by the way definitely does feel like a yearning for me, big time. A painful yearning , I would say for me the sensation is more of an inward contraction and deep pulling in, strangely the opposite of you, it’s like this drive to come home is a recognition of an inward calling, knowing I will never attain it in the future or in the outside world, that its something closer than close. It pulls me IN not out, but it’s just words …

i feel for me, the answer lies in letting go, releasing,, unclenching, non clinging, etc,

This sound like where the juice is.
So rather than doing those things, what is a positive 'non-doing'' perspective to consider?

All that comes to ‘mind’ , recognizing that none of these things can be ‘done’ is just words that evoke the opposite, eg. surrender, letting go, dropping, unclenching, relaxing, being, softening, settling, the yin to the yang, the feminine aspect, going back to what is, to this, to presence, to the moment, these are what comes up as the perspective to consider. What do you think? I believe that too it’s your description of just recognizing, without judgement, with smiling,I believe that’s all that can be done. It’s where there is no thoughts, no concepts. It’s a bit like neti neti from the yogic perspective if you are familiar with that. You cant get this without going through and seeing all youre ‘not’ and then its just whats left.

Though I am not religious, I remember reading something that stuck with me in some spiritual book ; it was saying that the only difference to a normal person and a Buddha or Jesus is not us having to become more or attain more or get something but actually its that they are less, they are stripped down, no beliefs, nor concepts, less doing, just being, we are covered up , with conditioning, they are not. Makes sense and also it was makes it clear that we can become like them too, cause we already are actually, its our natural state.

So, when i imagine yoga helping you, i imagine that you do it really slowly, with the attention on those areas that inhibit stretching. When they are located, then they are watched for stories that emanate. No judgment or opinions. Just watch.

When I do yoga, I do indeed like to do it very slowly with attention, I also do reformer pilates two times a week which I love because it’s jsut that, slow and mindful. I will try to watch as you say. I dont have too many judgements. I really do feel this trauma releas thing has something to it that is what I need. Or that will help. Check this link out , it’s very simple and it seems that most people after performing these very simple exercises will have shaking occur. It explains it all, try it and see what happens for you. I have been coming back to this for weeks, and still there is only a faint vibration and it does not happen for me. Ther is no judgement about it, but I recognize that there is a lot of contraction in the body. I am resonating with Mark’s saying that what is happening for him is a dropping not only of anxiety but of body tension, I do believe there is a path here for me. Here is a simple video I liked , there are many if you are interested. https://youtu.be/evSxE1cPBDM

After awakening Vince what changes did you notice in the body if any?

usually what I do when I notice is bring my attention to my body or breath, and then the urge usually passes.

Ok, this is fetter stuff. The process is that you feel uncomfortable then you do something to alleviate that.
So the first alleviating behavior is to look at your phone.
When you deny yourself that, you revert to the second alleviating behavior which is to focus on body or breath.
Instead of running from the initial discomfort, you sit in the gap and observe. Looking for where the juice is (that's the third time that phrase happened.) We don't want the discomfort to go. We want to keep it and even stimulate it so that it can be seen clearly.

Well that’s interesting I wasnt thinking of the second as an alleviating behavior, I guess I thought it was being mindful and coming in to the moment, but now I see that it is. Damn it’s just spiritual bypassing isnt it? This is why people can mediate for years or whatever, but really just are substituting one form of numbing for another. Have you heard that there was a study that looked at the brains of all these supposed very experienced mediators who had put in like thousands of hours, and to the horror of many , the brain waves showed that they were actually thinking and not mediating, they had fooled themselves completely. Ha! But I digress!

Yes I did notice you used juice three times lol

SO i this case, the juice is being present, stripped down, I wold say more being and not doing, more the feminine yin aspect, and instead of turning to a technique, even if its a so called ‘mindful ‘ one, instead sit in the gap, the discomfort , and see what happens. Yes, I think so, THATS the juice VInce, …..not sure if I can manage this aspect though without turning to thoughts. It somehow has to come back to sensation dont you think, awareness of body sensations all throughout the day might be a good practice

Ok, I feel there is a lot of useful stuff in this post

Talk soon

Xoxxo
Diana