Please confirm understanding

[kcross]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Everything that we think of as self is a thought/label/belief. I have experienced this and at first it was freeing and then terrifying and then deeply sad and then okay again. In other words it was a big shift from my previous way of experiencing self.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking to confirm my understanding. Am I on the right track? After seeing that there is no self I experienced that without the overlay of thoughts there is just this completely neutral (?) space that is open to all experience. It actually has no preference/judgements/thoughts. I used to label this 'awareness' but have recently realized that I replaced the old felt sense of 'I' with the new felt sense of 'Awareness' and that 'Awareness' is just another thought/label. I experience hearing, seeing, feeling, tasting, smelling, thinking. I recently realized that this awareness cannot be separated from the experience of the senses. It is literally part of the experience. They occur at the same time and are the same (?) And also that the senses aren't separated from one another - they are just experience. I don't know if this makes sense.
I am also looking for a community of people with an interest in this topic. I have no one in my family/friend circle to discuss this with - they just think it's strange.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I am hoping for a guide to confirm my understanding or tell me where I might be missing something and where to inquire/what questions to ask if I am missing the mark. I also just want to talk to someone who has knowledge in this area. I feel quite alone in that no one around me has an interest in this subject or has gone through experiences like mine.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been seeking for a long time, it seems like I was born with this interest. I don't have a well developed spiritual practice. I have always been drawn to Buddhism (felt true) and my spiritual practice could be summed up as reading spiritual books, watching spiritual teachers' videos, with varying degrees of interest/ commitment for the last 20 years by myself. Through inquiry I feel like I have developed much deeper understanding/realizations over the last few years. Like before it was only an intellectual understanding and at some point that changed to actually experiencing it. After that change I have experienced the feeling of being in a bit of a free fall like the rug has been pulled out.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Anastacia42]

Good afternoon (here),

You're not alone. I'll post a link to some video meetings you can attend below.

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you know yourself to be a skeptical person, prone to doubt, I may not be the best guide for you. I never had any doubt. I can connect you with one of our other guides who did & who can guide you better than I.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

There are 3 meetings & a set of 5 videos you're invited to attend:

This one is today in 3.5 hours:

Thursday Meetings.

Hi Guys,

we are Luchana & Lubo, guides at LU.

Here is an invitation for you:

Join us each Thursday, 6 pm CET, UTC+1
and let's explore together what is already here.
Let's enjoy together this beauty called Life
MEETINGS ARE ON ZOOM and LIVE on youtube.

To participate in the meetings, send a request to luchanauzunova@gmail.com
You will receive an e-mail confirming your participation and a link to join.

Looking forward to seeing YOU!
Luchana & Lubo
__________________________________________________

Meet up with vince (For LU seekers & guides)

Monday August 14

5am Sydney (est) Australia
Every 2 weeks after that.

https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768?p ... 12Um5DQT09

Meeting ID: 869 9148 5768
Passcode: 083035

Let him know if you want email reminders.

__________________________________________________

Ilona's Meetings

Next group meeting on Zoom is on the 4th of September. (There was one October 9. Not sure when next one is. )

To register send Ilona an email to

admin@ilonaciunaite.com

Looking forward :)


__________________________________________________

(videos)

Hi everyone.

Starting on 15th of October for 5 weeks I will post a new video of guiding sessions we had with Jim.
Here is a link to the first one.

https://youtu.be/gb6FwZ6PlI4

Liberation Unleashed Direct Pointing - The Gateless Gate

Ilona

__________________________________________________

Have fun with these. Looking forward to next reply.

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Oops! Not today.

[kcross]

Thank you very much for offering to guide me Stacy. I can post every day and have no doubt.
I have read the disclaimer and understand everything that LU is not.

How will life change?

I don’t expect my outer life to change at all.

How will you change?

I think that my internal dialogue and thoughts, feelings about myself and others will change. I have seen that there is no self. Initially I saw it for myself first and I felt lighter – like not taking myself or my stories seriously because they are just stories/ thoughts and the result of conditioning(?) I noticed that thoughts just arise and are only an aspect of experience. They don’t feel personal anymore. This realization and it’s implications sort of landed in a stepwise fashion. When I saw it for myself that was okay but then I was like waaaaaitaminute! That means it’s true for everyone (including my kids) and for some reason I felt deeply sad about that. It’s okay now. I relate to my family members in a different way. I can see this because when they do something that before would have triggered me and caused a reaction, the reaction just doesn’t come up. Because I’m not reacting, it stops there.



What will be different?

Nothing much in my external life except that I relate to others differently so they relate differently in turn. A lot internally in terms of my thoughts about everything and the stories I tell myself.



What is missing?

Nothing is missing.

Please call me Kari. I am in Pacific Standard Time (GMT-8)

[Anastacia42]

Hi Kari,

Good. We have some traditional "final" questions, which you have nearly answered already. Let's see if there's anything further to clear up.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Thank you,

[kcross]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?


No. Never.



2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.


I think it starts very young, maybe before you can remember. It would develop naturally because of our social conditioning and life experiences. From my own experience, we believe ‘stories’ or ‘thoughts’ about ourselves that aren’t true. These thoughts and stories come from:
• things we are told by others, especially people with a strong influence
• things we come to believe about ourselves because of how we are treated by family and broader culture
• impactful events in our lives that imprint a belief

Once I saw that thoughts were just thoughts, I started to question everything and the whole story (and my ability to tell them) just kind of lost its legs. Things were happening that before I would’ve reacted to but the story just wouldn’t come up anymore or if it did there was no momentum behind it.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days

.

As I described the first shift happened a while ago. For a long time I really believed this intellectually but wasn’t experiencing this ‘knowing’ for myself. When I did see it, I thought it was REALLY funny. Hilarious. A real eye opener about myself and everyone else. Then it sort of sunk in more deeply and I felt sad about it, like – things are not AT ALL what I thought they were and although it wasn’t great to have stressful stories – it was weird to see that things aren’t what I thought.


4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?



I think what made me look at this - was seeing that thoughts are just thoughts.



5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

I used to think that we make decisions then I saw deeply that we don’t make any decisions. Things just unfold. Actions are taken dictated by genes and conditioning. Something happens in our environment and because of our genes+preferences+conditioning a reaction to it arises and we attribute the reaction to a decision that WE made. The belief that we made a decision is applied afterwards and is just a thought.

A basic example would be when I consider what to make for dinner. Before I fully believed that I make the decision of what to make for dinner every night. Now I see it as, I have preferences in place, what I like or don’t like to eat (genes/conditioning). My family has preferences in place as well and I know what those are through their feedback and I care whether or not they will like it (conditioning). I grew up in a house where my mom prepared certain meals so I was exposed to certain tastes and developed a certain taste palette (conditioning). I learned how to make certain meals from my mother (conditioning). None of this conditioning was my choice. My mom had the same exposure to certain foods and ways of preparing it as did her mother going back in time. Who made the decision to have that specific knowledge or that specific taste palette? When considering what to make for dinner all of these factors and more come into play without me even being aware of them. I take action based on what I feel like (preference) what I know how to make (conditioning). I could attribute this action to a decision but taking all things into account it wasn’t a decision. 



Describe intention & give examples from experience.


In the same vein as decisions, an intention comes about because of genes / conditioning. The reason why you have the specific intentions you do is pre-determined. For example, in my 20’s I had an intention to get a union job working for government. At the time, I thought I decided it was something I wanted to do/an intention or objective. After this realization, I see that I grew up in a house with two parents who had union jobs. They were both actively involved in and supported the union and were positive about the benefits of working in a unionized job. Because of this I viewed the union environment positively both in terms of remuneration and employee support. I didn’t choose my parents or any of my views about unions, they were conditioned. My parent’s views would have also been conditioned by their parents/ culture and so on into the past.


Describe free will & give examples from experience.


There is no free will if we can’t make decisions. Much like decisions and intentions, when considering free will, there are innumerable extenuating circumstances that we don’t take into account. If you don’t make decisions, how can you have free will?
After an action is taken, we assume we made the decision to take it and therefore assume we have free will.

Until I had this realization I lived my life believing I had free will. I agonized over many decisions; especially ones that I felt would determine the outcome of my or my kids lives. Feeling responsible for this was an enormous weight. I reflected on decisions I thought were bad and felt a lot of shame about them. When I believed a good decision was made I felt happy with myself. Seeing we have no free will felt like a relief. When I saw that things just unfold, judgement towards myself and others dropped away. I also feel an immense amount of compassion for people. It is not easy being human especially with our commonly held beliefs.


Describe control & give examples from experience.


If we can’t make decisions and don’t have free will we have no control. There are so many factors that play into every scenario, how could you be? When you see this to be true, you just see that things unfold. It’s interesting to notice how much thought went into things before to get the ‘right’ outcome compared to just doing the things that need your attention as they come up, without a lot of stressful thoughts about it. It’s funny to see that many things require little to no thought. You can do anything without having a big story about it.
An example of this is I used to feel a lot of anxiety around family gatherings. Before each gathering I would remind my family what topics of discussion aren’t to be raised so as not to offend family members. I would be very stressed during and after the gathering. Did everyone behave? Was anyone offended?
In hindsight, it’s hilarious that I did this. I was trying to control my husband, my children, my parents and my brother and sister in law’s reactions. With so many factors (conditioning) at play, how could I ever hope to do that?

What makes things happen? How does it work?

I have no idea what makes things happen or how it works. It seems like things just unfold according to genes, conditioning in response to external environmental factors.



What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.


We are not responsible.
Every decision ever made was done within the context of genes/conditioning. There are so many examples but a good one is how you parent your children. I see that I was conditioned to have the parenting style that I have and my husband was conditioned to have his parenting style. If I don't agree with how my husband handles something, I know that he is not responsible. I can make a suggestion and he can take it or leave it and whether he does or not is dictated by his conditioning. Because I don't see him as being responsible, I don't react in anger and because I make a suggestion from a place of love/calm, he is more likely to consider it and make a change, if he makes a change, new conditioning has been adopted.

Realizing this was a revelation but it doesn’t change how things operate in day-to-day life. Whatever this place is, where life is unfolding – there is cause and effect. Knowing what the consequences of our actions will be and whether or not we care about them is determined by our genes/conditioning. Even though we are not responsible, in day-to-day life there is cause and effect. Some actions will result in an effect we label as good, others will result in an effect we label as bad.


6) Anything to add?

Just that I would compare life before to floating down a river in a boat tightly gripping the sides, terrified of rough waters ahead and when the rough waters came I tried desperately to paddle back up stream until utterly exhausted I realized I’d have to go through the rough waters but I’d do it with immense fear and clenched teeth.
Now I’m floating down the river, knowing and accepting that the conditions will change and when they do I will be clear headed and react as needed.

[Anastacia42]

Your replies are clear & beautiful.

The one thing is question is attributing cause to genes & conditioning. Aren't those just another thought we made up?

Isn't it truer & more inspiring to see that it's all just an inexplicable mystery?[

Just life life-ing? Check. /color]

Loving,

[kcross]

Your replies are clear & beautiful.


Thank you so much for your time and feedback Stacy.



The one thing is question is attributing cause to genes & conditioning. Aren't those just another thought we made up?


Hahaha – YES! I like that very much. Thank you!!!



Isn't it truer & more inspiring to see that it's all just an inexplicable mystery?


Ahhh yes! There is certainly an inexplicable mystery! I am used to trying to explain my understanding to my husband who is not on this path and who has quite a scientific mind. He doesn’t like mystery :0) so I explain it this way.

I know and feel this mystery in the way that things just seem to work out and people and circumstances show up at just the right time. I have felt a strong intuition about certain things/people in my life. It is mind boggling and beautiful and heart breaking and joyful allatonce.



Just life life-ing?

I like that. Just Life-ing

[Anastacia42]

Good. I'll share your answers with other guides who may have questions.

Much love,

[Anastacia42]

Good morning, No one had questions. They confirmed.

I posted links to our teleconferences above. Luchana wanted you to know that she'd like to meet you. That meeting is on Thursdays.

Welcome home!