Requesting a guide.

[Vivien]

Please go back to my previous post and look at the questions about resistance I gave to you. It's not just simply discovering that there is resistance, but also resistance to what? It's not to lookinig.... it's to the consequences you believe in.

V

[IainB]

whenever there is resistance then there is a story believed about negative consequences to the inquiry. So what is that? What is it that you don't want to happen?

Hi V,

The stories are...

There are more important things to be consumed with than the knowing there is no agency, only now, and no separate self, there are jobs to apply for and a big trip to asia to prepare for and kareoke songs to learn.

Exercises that result in a shift or experience of knowing no agency are great and do offer a little wow factor for a while but there is always a return to default separation and subsumption into belief in thought content and belief in separate character here and separate characters 'out there' to either be averse to or have desire towards.

Things are not that bad. Things might change if it was known on a deeper or more frequently level that there is no doer or control and life may be worse not better not that it's a rose garden currently by any means.

***
I know intelectually that there is no doer and no control. There still feels like both a social and cultural taboo to break through to know this that feels like a spiders web. Then there are the personal narratives about Ian known in thought cotent about loss of control and Ian might do more bad things if there is no control. There, that's more like it:
***

I won't be able to influence things. I won't be able to know something I want and either choose actions that achieve it, or choose actions to prevent it happening.

There's the truth. All about an I not wanting to give up control. It's as simple as that. Surprise, surprise.

Thanks,

[Vivien]

There's the truth. All about an I not wanting to give up control. It's as simple as that.

Exactly. Thank you for your honesty.

Well, as long as you keep holding onto this belief, it can hold you back from actually looking and seeing how things are.

You say that you intellectually know that there is no control, and yet, you are afraid of loosing control.
But how could you loose something that you've never had?

Notice, that you actually believe that there IS control. Otherwise, why would you fear loosing it?
Be honest with yourself, and don't fool yourself by TRYING to believe that there is no control, since you DO believe that there is.

I hope you don't take my words personally :) We just need to be super honest here. I being honest with you, and you being honest with yourself.

You are fooling around by trying to believe that there is no control.... yet you are afraid of loosing it.

Go to this contradiction.... dive deep into it. See how contradicting it is.... see what is really going on... what is it you are really believing. You deserve self-honesty. Let it hit you. What you actually believe in.

As long as you don't want to admit to yourself what you actually believe in deep down, then how could you really questioning it, if you are denying it in the first place? you see.....

Spend some time with this. Dive deep. Be super honest with yourself.

Vivien

[IainB]

Hey V,

as long as you keep holding onto this belief, it can hold you back from actually looking and seeing how things are.

There has to be a little irony here has there not, given the grasping at the belief (or this belief ceasing) is done without choice and without a chooser, but yes.

how could you loose something that you've never had?

Well, it needs to be seen clearly (if temporarily, but reliably each time) for this contradiction to be deeply known

Notice, that you actually believe that there IS control. Otherwise, why would you fear losing it?

I deeply believe I have [some] control. Many thoughts reference the character Ian, and what he is up to in relation to other people that are taken to be separate. Thoughts also symbolise choices made in the past, scenarios that may be known in the future and the opinions of the person Ian. These thoughts are both known and taken to have a realness or vivid validity, even if they are known to be thought content and not real in the way sensation, colour and sound are real.

Be honest with yourself, and don't fool yourself by TRYING to believe that there is no control, since you DO believe that there is.

This is good, and links to the importance of not just creating a new set of intellectual beliefs. There is a naivety here that "belief in no choice/chooser" may be revealed in a sequence of thoughts that are believed in, in much the same way that currnetly thoughts appear about choice, risk, advantage, need, actions to do and actions to avoid and are believed in. Or no choice/chooser may be known in some other way, for example by staring intently at the hands or watching the thought about chocolate intently and something new is known that is currently not known.

You are fooling around by trying to believe that there is no control....yet you are afraid of loosing it.

Please do be direct, and without sway that things be taken personally here. If sometimes they are, and there is a flood of emotions and thoughts, then so what? If anything, it might help highlight all these deeply held beliefs and shake things up. I was some years too late but it would have been fun to have participated in Ciaran's Ruthless Truth forum.

Go to this contradiction.... dive deep into it. See how contradicting it is.... see what is really going on... what is it you are really believing. You deserve self-honesty. Let it hit you. What you actually believe in.

I do believe I have to act to defend, safeguard and maintain the being here. I am fearful of change and the unknown, and yet each moment seems entirely new and only, with no past, so paradoxically there is only change. I grasp at the deepest level that I am here, it is the most obvious thing when conscious. Thoughts run alongside powerful sensations that charge them. I never asked to exist, and moreover I never asked to exist and seek for what is to be other than it is, yet that is what is. A maelstrom of always changed, floods of thoughts, core fundamental belief in choicing taking place with the flood of happening.

As long as you don't want to admit to yourself what you actually believe in deep down, then how could you really questioning it, if you are denying it in the first place?

I think there may be a little willingness to explore, question and change. I don't hold my thoughts to be correct - a lot of them are painful and upsetting and so rejected. There is a deep belief that I am fractured and separate and isolated in 'me' and 'my life' and there are things 'wrong' and 'right', 'good' and 'bad' about me, here.

Thanks,

[Vivien]

thank you for your replies.

I deeply believe I have [some] control. Many thoughts reference the character Ian, and what he is up to in relation to other people that are taken to be separate. Thoughts also symbolise choices made in the past, scenarios that may be known in the future and the opinions of the person Ian. These thoughts are both known and taken to have a realness or vivid validity, even if they are known to be thought content and not real in the way sensation, colour and sound are real.

Is this how it is in your experience, or is it rather an intellectual analysis, AFTER? What I mean is that you say "Many thoughts reference the character Ian" - so is this what you experience directly? Seeing all those thoughts only referencing Ian? Or in your immediate experience you don't see these thoughts just passively arising, rather you FEEL that YOU THINK them?

You are very prone to intellectualizing, analyzing, and not being fully honest with yourself that those things are not your experience.... as if you are trying (probably unconsciously) disidentify from thoughts by denying them, and trying to make them into an object that you are not thinking, while in your immediate experience these thoughts are very your own, it feels personal, yours, your doing. Isn't it?

V

[IainB]

Hi V,

Is this how it is in your experience, or is it rather an intellectual analysis, AFTER?

You're quite right. The clue here is 'many thoughts'. More than one thought story cannot be known at a time so I must believe in an intelectualised story, a thought story about the supposed content of thoughts, and presented this supposition. I have moved a step or a layer away from immediate experience and favoured this story over what is actual.

don't [you] see these thoughts just passively arising, rather you FEEL that YOU THINK them

Yes, thoughts arise, there is an accompanying sensation, there is a knowing 'this sensation is bad' or 'this sensation is good' and perhaps thought content describes why a sensation is bad or why good. There are deep feelings of personalisation. There is deep belief that something is missing, or something is wrong, or there is something to be seeked for.

[it is] as if you are trying [to] disidentify from thoughts by denying them, and trying to make them into an object that you are not thinking

Not only unconsciously but consciously. I feel trapped with negative thoughts. When they appear there is a wish to be released from them. There is a deep felt sense that there is something wrong with me. There are thoughts about what is wrong with me and why some thoughts are bad and contribute to this, and why other thoughts are good and do not contribute to feelings of fear, shame, wrong.

in [my] immediate experience these thoughts are very your own, it feels personal, yours, your doing. Isn't it?

!00%. The thought appears. It is known. Also known is that I am separate, there is a being here having the thoughts. I said in my last post "I grasp at the deepest level that I am here, it is the most obvious thing when conscious (this deep felt personalised doing you describe)...There is a deep belief that I am fractured and separate and isolated in 'me' and 'my life' and there are things 'wrong' and 'right', 'good' and 'bad' about me, here"

You say I intellectualize, analyze, and I'm not being fully honest with myself about my experience. I don't understand how I can be more honest than the above response. I seek in each concious moment for what is to be other than it is and so life is experienced from a point of continuous separation, dissatisfaction and unease.

I know this will not change. Of course the same thoughts will appear. They may continue to trap at times. Sensation will continue until death and thought will label sensation "this feeling shows something is wrong or right with Ian". In this way fear, shame and wrongness will appear. The deep sense of separate doing, that I am here having a unique experience as a component within an infinite separate world will continue I have to assume as I have never known otherwise.

That all being said there is a possiblity to no longer hold that 100% belief in thought content (and in particular see that thoughts about I, me, Ian exist only within thought even though they suggest something existing outside of thought) and all the structures that cascade/follow from that belief. If it can be seen that what is, is absent of that personalised character then perhaps it will be less fiercely and fearfully gripped somehow.

[IainB]

Hey V,

I had some insight upon first waking.

It was known that there is no control over thought as it appears (the phenomena of thought itself, never mind the symbolic content). There was consciousness, and then it was filled with thought, like water pouring into a vessel. That suggests a separation between aware and thought but that can't be found. This is a messy way of me saying awake-boom-stuff.

Likewise sensation. Consciousness was/is, sensation is there, so clear and known. Then followed a felt-knowing working out if the sensation was uncomfortable...then thought content making commnets about sensation and visual symbols about Ian's life.

In this way there was a stepping back to the fundamental component of what is before thought and routine took over.

I see I am writing this all from memory. I am awake now with my coffee. I may be intelectualising or celebrating some sort of 'less complex' state because I have an aversion to the character Ian or encounter aversion to some thought content and some snesation. It seemed relevent to agency though.

When fully awake and busy with thought and activity, there feels a felt sense of separation, that I am a character operating inside an external world, even though that separation canot be found, nor the person/character Ian. Upon waking everything is a clumsy jumble absent of separation and personhood.

Thanks, Ian

[Vivien]

Sorry that I haven't replied yet, I"ve been quite busy. I'll write as soon as I can. V

[Vivien]

You say I intellectualize, analyze, and I'm not being fully honest with myself about my experience. I don't understand how I can be more honest than the above response.

Well, here it is what I mean..... Let me quote this from you:

Yes, thoughts arise, there is an accompanying sensation, there is a knowing 'this sensation is bad' or 'this sensation is good' and perhaps thought content describes why a sensation is bad or why good.

this is not a fully honest description... since it's not coming from your immediate experience. This is an analysis AFTER, but in the very moment that's not your truth, not your experience, since you don't see a thought to be a thought only that you are just watching coming and going, but you are thinking it. You don't just simply observe a sensation, but it feels like that you hare having it, it's happening to you.

But here, this example (quote) is your experience. this is your truth. That's when I say you are honest with yourself:

I feel trapped with negative thoughts. When they appear there is a wish to be released from them. There is a deep felt sense that there is something wrong with me.

So this is honest. But then you follow with another intellectual explanation:

There are thoughts about what is wrong with me and why some thoughts are bad and contribute to this, and why other thoughts are good and do not contribute to feelings of fear, shame, wrong.

Why am I saying that this is intellectual? Because you write as if you were able to watch those thoughts coming and going in that moment, as if you were not identified with them. But that wasn't your truth, was it? You felt that you were thinking those thoughts, right?

I seek in each concious moment for what is to be other than it is, and so life is experienced from a point of continuous separation, dissatisfaction and unease.

the first half of the sentence (until the comma), that is your truth. But the second half is intellectual. Saying that "life is experienced from a point of continuous separation". what could be truer in that moment, saying: "I feel separate". "I am separate'. I am continuously dissatisfied and at unease." Do you see the difference?

the one is honest to your experience, the other is an intellectual reply trying to make the experience not yours, while it fully FEELS yours, so it's dishonest to your experience. Do you see?

In this way there was a stepping back to the fundamental component of what is before thought

Great! So this is the 'place' where we should do the inquiry. Seeing things 'from before thoughts', or 'behind thoughts', or 'when thoughts are ignored'. What is there REGARDLESS of thoughts.

If Ian exists, he must be there REGARDLESS of thoughts. PRIOR to thoughts. BEFORE thoughts.
So look at that.... do you find an entity, called Ian?

When fully awake and busy with thought and activity, there feels a felt sense of separation, that I am a character operating inside an external world, even though that separation canot be found, nor the person/character Ian.

Well, honestly must be here too. Saying that there is not person or character when it FEELS like that there is one is not the truth. Making a conclusion about it, is not the truth. Rather, do I see it now? And now? And what about now? If I'm not seeing it NOW, then I'm just BELIEVING it. It's not my truth, now. I'm just believing a thought. That's all. This is what i mean being honest with yourself. Not taking on a belief that is not my current experience.

Have a nice day,
Vivien

[IainB]

I love your ability to see when I am being truthful, and when I am being dishonest. It opens up the door to me being able to do the same.

I'm like an addict who is not quite at step One yet, where I accept I am addicted and have no control over the addition.

There is honesty and I am fully honest as the I, Ian, personhood thoughts are fully believed as they appear. I completely believe them and I completely believe I am having them and they are mine and I don't like the bad ones and prefer the good ones.

But there is also denial, where I slip into believing an intelectualised story about those thoughts *After* where I create a construct to distance myself from what is happening.

It is as though I have taken all your guide pointers and tried them (some better than others), but I have ended up creating an intelectualised, thought imagined idea of what knowing no self might be, and then stuck with this and denied anything that did not fit with this imagined model of what knowing no self might be about and just kept regurgitating my intelectualised version.

that wasn't your truth, was it? You felt that you were thinking those thoughts, right?

Completely, the thought came and I fully believed I was having the thought. I was there, and the thuoght was there being had by me.

Do you see the difference?

Yes. A clue would seem to be where I change language, drop the I, and start to refer to things in the third person without I / me / felt words, distancing myself from the immediate felt I, me, person which is the core of my lived conscious experience.

You are good at getting to the bottom of this.

this is the 'place' where we should do the inquiry. Seeing things 'from before thoughts', or 'behind thoughts', or 'when thoughts are ignored'. What is there REGARDLESS of thoughts.

This 'place' would seem to always be available to explore from, unless I am consumed by thought. I can tell the difference between being in thought, disregarding thought and this 'place' that is absent of being in thought.

If Ian exists, he must be there REGARDLESS of thoughts. PRIOR to thoughts. BEFORE thoughts.

Yes. Otherwise it has to be clearly seen Ian is just in thought content.

So look at that.... do you find an entity, called Ian?

In this 'place' of course no entity Ian can be found. I'll look 100 times today and share later.

[Don't]tak[e] on a belief that is not [your] current experience.

Sure. I hear you. Honesty can be fun.

[IainB]

So look at that.... do you find an entity, called Ian?

In this 'place' of course no entity Ian can be found. I'll look 100 times today and share later.

Will keep looking.

[IainB]

Hi,

I enjoyed looking at honest and dishonest/untruthful responses. Would you be able to ask me some more questions to explore this?

Thanks,

[Vivien]

Hi Ian,

Sorry for my late replies, I'm quite busy nowadays.

there is also denial, where I slip into believing an intelectualised story about those thoughts *After* where I create a construct to distance myself from what is happening.

It is as though I have taken all your guide pointers and tried them (some better than others), but I have ended up creating an intelectualised, thought imagined idea of what knowing no self might be, and then stuck with this and denied anything that did not fit with this imagined model of what knowing no self might be about and just kept regurgitating my intelectualised version.

Exactly! You need to watch out for this.

Yes. A clue would seem to be where I change language, drop the I, and start to refer to things in the third person without I / me / felt words, distancing myself from the immediate felt I, me, person which is the core of my lived conscious experience.

Very spot on.

This 'place' would seem to always be available to explore from, unless I am consumed by thought. I can tell the difference between being in thought, disregarding thought and this 'place' that is absent of being in thought.

Yes. And from that 'place' thoughts can be seen to be arising thoughts only.
That's how you can see first hand, that you are not thinking any thought... that you do nothing to thoughts to come up.
Not just understanding it with reasoning, but seeing it thought by thought in the VERY MOMENT they appear.

Here is an exercise that can help you with this.

Here is a step-by-step description of how to observe and become aware of all thoughts. The first thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close the eyes and just notice thoughts, be they words, mental images or snippets of music etc, but don’t engage with any of them. If you find yourself engaging with thoughts, just gently bring your attention to observing each thought.

When I ask you to look for the gap, the purpose of that looking is to slow thoughts down, as thoughts can be like a machine gun and fire a multitude of thoughts, one after the other and be very noisy, subtle, chaotic or calm. The objective of this exercise is to observe each and every thought as it arises and subsides.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you are sitting with eyes closed and all that is seen is the ‘blackness behind the eyes”. A thought might arise “oh look, there is a red glow appearing in the darkness behind my eyes” or “it feels strange sitting here watching for thoughts” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” – whatever thought is appearing.

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought arises.

This is how to observe your thoughts:
- Watch how each thought arises and subsides
- Watch and observe the gap (be it a short subtle gap or a long gap) between each thought
- Notice how the current thought is passing,
- And watch and wait for the next thought to arise/appear.

At the end, please write me how did you go observing each thought as it arose, and observing the gap between thoughts when sitting silently?

I would like you to also apply this observation of thought throughout your waking day. Try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. This helps you to see each thought as it appears. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. Let me know how you went with observing thoughts as they appeared and disappeared. What did you notice?

[IainB]

Hi V,

I love this thought work. I've spent 99.999% of my life believing both that thought [content] is real, and that I am there having the thought as it is had.

I want to also go back to November to take your beautiful reminder "as long as you want [a] state, that is...based on the idea that there is an I present who wants to see every thought to be a thought only...still a belief in doership".

Well, seeing a thought to be a thought only is not an ultimate goal. It's not that we need to get into that special state where no thought is taken for real anymore. Rather it is just a tool that helps to see that thoughts just happen on their own and there is no person thinking them.

As long as you want to get into that state, that is still based on the idea that there is an I present who wants to see every thought to be a thought only. Do you see that? It's still a belief in doership.

I will do the work now though...

see each thought as it appears...notic[e] that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come...observing thoughts as they appeared and disappear

Thanks

[IainB]

Really I would like to repeat this work for some time, maybe some weeks.

I did this work in November but then moved on. It is good to return to this work.

I wanted to respond as some days have passed.

write me how did you go observing each thought as it arose, and observing the gap between thoughts when sitting silently?

Some thoughts remain missed. The thought happens and I am completely in there with it, it is me having the thought about me.

With others, I catch the thought happening and I remember 'simply observe the thought rather than be merged or 'stuck' in it'. and thoughts are observed coming and going. I'm no longer hypnotised by thoughts, but instead thoughts pass through.

Or I remember to commence the exercise 'I can do 15 minutes quietly observing thoughts and focus on this rather than being busy with life', especially upon waking, and thoughts arise and fall and I just observe them.

Even when consumed by busyness, I still remember at times 'I have the opportunity to observe these thoughts, to see how there is a gap, then another thought comes'.

see each thought as it appears...notic[e] that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come...observing thoughts as they appeared and disappear

It is amazing to notice that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, because in the past I was completely submerged in thought, held inside and within in rather than observing it and it was not known that it was just a thought happening.

I will keep repeating when it happens.