Suffering in the world

[Stina]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand by this, that I was born as awareness, everything I learned is just thought. Even myself is a thought. I try to get this and there are moments I get it. But if it is true, the world around me, people around me, am I their thought? And when everybody around me is only my thought, why can not I think about something better?

What are you looking for at LU?
Im am hoping, LU will guide me, like push me from the cliff, gently, I hope to see through this illusion, the everyday suffering. I see so much suffering around me, in my family, in generations before me. Great grandparents hurt my grandparents, they hurt my parents, my parents hurt me. I feel, if they understood this, they would treat each other better. I hope to heal the generation trauma, I hope to understand my fears, I hope to understand my reactions in different situations. Why am I running away from some people and situations, why am I attracted to gentle nice people. I tried non violent communication, energy healing. Working in a group or with a healer, there is a border and I don't want to go through, I always think, how do the others see me, I don't want to show my vulnerability, my weakness, my secrets.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Because it is anonymous, I hope I can "open" be guided. I am not sure if I see the person's face. If I know a teacher and I like him, I build a wall immediately, because I don't want this nice person to see me so vulnerable. I always want show my strength and look smart and be good and correct. Something in me doesn't allow me to go to certain "doors". Like a closed door in a story tale. I know, I have to go there, but I don't dare. I was raised to be a good girl, to be a smart girl, to do want my parents me to do, to help others, forget my own needs and feels so good to be good and helpful, but now always.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I was trying a visual way with "Tables von Chartres", dynamic meditation with Jose Silva, exercises from the book from Oliver Driver about self healing. As soon as I get to "feeling", sensory experience, I think, I am not good enough. Clearaudience, clearseing. I can't do it. l was trying to learn aura reading. I can see the first and second layer. I could not move further, I gave up. Body scanning, relaxing my body is helping, Feldenkrais method, Tomatis method. I was trying to do inquiry, asking "Who am I?". But all these answers, I learned the from reading, I am not experiencing them. I know it intellectually.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Marcus1144]

Hi Stina,

Resonating with your journey of seeking and healing.
Acknowledging your need to 'get it' experientially, to bring a calming of the striving/seeking.
Very happy to point you towards the 'gateless gate'?
Sounds like there's an energy of readiness.

I request three things:
1) Your willingness to be honest and courageous in your answering, which you sound like you are.
2) Your focus and commitment to the questioning, despite any discomfort that may arise.
3) Your commitment to keep the momentum going in this exchange and answer within 48 hours of my posting.

I aim to respond within 24 hours of your post, but if circumstances dictate it can be up to 48 hours.

Happy to help.

How should I address you?

Love.

Marcus

[Stina]

Hi Marcus. I would answer yes to all three conditions. I am excited. Thank you.

[Stina]

English is not my mother tongue. But I will try my best. Thank you, Marcus.

[Stina]

Oh, I forgot, you can address me Stina. That's perfect.

[Marcus1144]

Stina,

That’s great. Don’t worry about the language, you just need to make sure you consider the questions with love and care. There will be a natural flow of questioning that will help us explore together.

The first two question I’m really drawn to ask you is - what do you expect will happen when you see through the illusion of the separate self?

Please be patient in the beginning as it may take a little while for us to get on the same page regards to language and your approach to contemplating your experience. Let’s see what unfolds.

Are you clear on how to respond to my questions by highlighting and responding… like this…?

Hi Marcus,

Hi Stina!

Marcus

[Stina]

Stina,

That’s great. Don’t worry about the language, you just need to make sure you consider the questions with love and care. There will be a natural flow of questioning that will help us explore together.

The first two question I’m really drawn to ask you is - what do you expect will happen when you see through the illusion of the separate self?

Hi Marcus, I expect nothing. I would like to experience oneness, no time no space reality. I have heard about it, I have red about it, I know what people say and I know, that it is hard to put it into words.

Please be patient in the beginning as it may take a little while for us to get on the same page regards to language and your approach to contemplating your experience. Let’s see what unfolds.

Are you clear on how to respond to my questions by highlighting and responding… like this…?

Not really, I try.

Thank you, Marcus.

[Marcus1144]

Stina,

Nearly got it! But it looks like you've highlighted the whole response too! You can refer to this short YouTube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Some additional instructions...

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not"
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

If your answer is going to be a long one it is best to copy/paste into word or notes app, as sometimes the website can crash and you can lose what you've written before posting.

Onto my response to your answers...

The reason I ask the question about your expectations is that you are referring to hopes or frustrations around becoming a more psychologically healthy person in your answer and lots of references to your attempts at healing and my curiosity goes to your diversion onto these topics.

I'm curious if you really took a good look here in your answering to my question. Did you really take the time to reveal any unconscious or hidden expectations that are lurking behind the hedges. This can be a good opportunity to practice that deep honesty and vulnerability that you long to experience. No one judging here.

If you truly can't find anything just move onto the next questions :)

What will be different when you realise there’s no separate self?

What do you not want to happen as a result of this process?

Thanks

Marcus

[Stina]

Hi Marcus, thank you very much for your suggestions. It is helpful.

You are asking me...

The reason I ask the question about your expectations is that you are referring to hopes or frustrations around becoming a more psychologically healthy person in your answer and lots of references to your attempts at healing and my curiosity goes to your diversion onto these topics.

Yes, I have red many books and tried different approaches. I was trying to understand, what do they have in common and yes, I was trying to change my life. I was in a difficult situation and I saw no exit, no solution. I was trying to help my son and every method I found for him, I tried too. All methods have something in common, awareness. But I had the feeling, there is more and I could not put it down. It was like one thing brought me to another. I am very sensitive to judgment and suffering around me. If only I could help the others around me. They don't have to suffer, I feel it. It looks like realized people are living the life without resistance. Teachers like Byron Katie or Dr. Marshall Rosenberg. I have been following them. I have been trying to learn from them. If only I could solve every conflict in 20 minutes, like Dr. Rosenberg did. Or if I could be as smart as Byron Katie. :-) But at some point, this urge stopped. I wanted to find out for myself. Find out what? I don't know.

I'm curious if you really took a good look here in your answering to my question. Did you really take the time to reveal any unconscious or hidden expectations that are lurking behind the hedges. This can be a good opportunity to practice that deep honesty and vulnerability that you long to experience. No one judging here.

Marcus, I have red what LU is not. That is why I would like to be led by someone and not contaminate my experience by experiences of others. At this point, I really have no expectations. I dropped it. I am just curious.

What will be different when you realise there’s no separate self?

I don't know. Let's see. If I would say something, it would be words of other people.

What do you not want to happen as a result of this process?

I can't answer this question either.

Thank you, Marcus.

[Marcus1144]

Thanks for you answers Stina,

You have made it clear that your expectations are minimal and that you are coming in with a curious and open mind.

Do you feel like you understand the approach that is given here with regards 'Direct Experiencing'?

If so, what comes up in your direct experience when I ask these questions:

(describe in detail what appears in your experience– feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?)

There is no self never has been and never will be?

There’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness.

Please tell me where you looked and what you found?

Thanks

Marcus

[Stina]

Hi Marcus. Thank you for your reply. I am traveling today. Sitting at the airport. You ask me...

Do you feel like you understand the approach that is given here with regards 'Direct Experiencing'?/quote]

Well, I guess I am familiar with it. It is like experiencing sensations without the thought attached.

(describe in detail what appears in your experience– feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?)

Well, as I am sitting, my body is placed on a chair, in the big hall, the first impression is the noise and movement. Air-conditioning, voices, lthe background noise, no break, no gap. Constant noise. People are are moving, talking, drinking, eating, using phone like I am. Travelkers, police officers, people getting up, sitting down, child screaming, somebody is laughing. The energy is moving, like in the beehive, everybody knows what to do and where to go. I feel the pressure of the chair, My knees hurt, from inside, silent pain, constant, my left hand hurts, I feel my throat, the slime in my throat, my left ear is so sensitive. I am slowly calming down, the pressure to be on time, the contractions in the body, I have time, I can relax for a while.

There is no self never has been and never will be?/quote]

I don't understand this one. This impressions appear to someone, I try to find him her it often. It's like the feeling behind my eyes, in my head. I can't find her, the one that sees. When I close my eyes, it's dark. But she still hears and feels. I am a bundle of sensations. When I don't feel, is the world still there? I guess so. When I open the eyes, I see changes. Something happened in between.

There’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness

It's hard to accept. Who is doing the decisions? Who decided to fly? To buy the ticket, arrange everything, prepare everything at home, that husband won't be lost. Who did it? It feels like I, OK, some urge from me, through me, I followed this urge to do it. Mom has a birthday, she is lonely, I have to go. I need a break from the everyday duties. I deserve it. I am not sure why, I have tears in my eyes. It's embarrassing, people ae here.What makes the body cry? A thought? I am a scientist. Thought is inducing a reaction in the body and emotions are connected to certain chemicals. But what or who organizes these chemicals? Who is the director? I feel the emotions of other people. Some carry a heave load, burden, some are confident, but I feel, behind the mask is vulnerability. I love to watch people. Back to emotions, chemicals and body. Every cell in the body is genius. Perfect. Every molecule, enzyme knows what to to. Who tells them? Why are they sticking together? Why do they want to preserve me? Keep me alive. Me who? Trillions of cells cooperating. Why, what is so special about me, that they work so hard to keep me alive? I know, when I go deep deep, I am a bundle of energy. Where? Where is this energy?As a child I tried to imagine nothing. When I die, do I go there? This black nothing? If there is nothing, where is it? Hanging in the space? What is space?

I feel the urge to stand up and check my flight.

Thanks Marcus. Don't you have something better to do, like read this nonsense over and over. You don't do it for the first time, this guiding. Isn't it boring? You know all the answers. But I thank you from the depth of this being. I feel a nice feeling around my heart. Tears are here. Why? Memories? I am important to a stranger. I who? Wow. Stop crying you fool. I understand Jill Bolte Taylor and her "Whole brain living". How many entities are here?

Bye Marcus.

[Marcus1144]

Well, I guess I am familiar with it. It is like experiencing sensations without the thought attached.

Yes - raw, unfiltered, direct, very simple.

Thank you for your words and sharing your experience.

Let’s try again.

You can treat it as an exercise noticing.

Read the below statements (1) + (2) below with patience.

Notice what happens in your experience when you read the statement.

Thoughts are welcome, but see the thought for what it is - simply a thought.

Is there fear? contraction? emotion? bodily sensation?

A gentle, light curiosity.


(1) There is no self never has been and never will be.

(2) Who is the ‘I’ undertaking this process?

Don't you have something better to do?

Apparently not! Haha. It’s my pleasure!

Hopefully you'll get used to the quoting function in time.

Thanks

Marcus

[Stina]

Hi Marcus. Thank you for writing back. I will try to experiment with your questions.

(1) There is no self never has been and never will be.

My body feels so tired, heavy. I feel a slight headache and almost nausea. I feel contraction in my throat, pulsation in my hands and feet.

Thoughts are coming....

If there is no self, why is what I experience not mixed with experience of other forms, body minds? Why is my experience individual?

What about the story of Stina? I have very good memory. Memory is pictures, thoughts. Presence is perception, the senses translate the impulses into pictures, thoughts. I need a reference in order to know what I experience. I get it. If nobody would teach a baby what is what, how would it function in this world? Baby discovers the world with his mouth first, later with hands and feet and movement. Am I only entangelmant of sensations and thoughts? When I investigate sensations and thoughts, they are nothing, no thing. I get it too. Does everything only appear when I perceive it? How do blind and deaf people perceive the world? Do you know the story of Hellen Keller? She lost a vision and hearing as a small baby. Her world was dark. She had to make some connection, reference to perceive. Her teacher took her hand and put it under water and wrote the world water on her had. In the moment something happened. Hellen started to discover the world around her. She needed the reference.

Who is the ‘I’ undertaking this process?/quote]

When I ask these question, I feel presence, the feeling I exist, I am, something that is always here. When I wake up in the morning, before I know where and wo I am, this presence. It is always here, I don't always pay attention to it. This peace, quietness, gap between words and sounds, this. When I ask a question, the moment before the answer comes. I am that.

Bye Marcus. Thank you for your time.

Stina

[Marcus1144]

Stina,

Thank you for your answers and the fullness of energy behind them.

The initial stages of this enquiry might seem a bit scatter gun, trust that if we tend to it with love, anything is possible.

I find this to be subtlest of enquiries.

To allow the obvious to be seen - through the obscuration.

But we will not ‘see’ via the route of philosophising or referring to second hand experience or dwelling on our thoughts.

We must ‘see’ it for ourselves.

Carefully, patiently unpicking what is happening right now in our experience, having the courage to challenge the ways we’ve been conditioned to interpret navigate reality.

I find that this process can feel like a letting go of our understanding, rather than gaining anything.

Less a knowledge, more a falling into a somehow known unknown.

But I’m not a teacher, and these are just words, that ultimately cannot tell you anything unless you’ve seen it for yourself.

So I will ask you again.

There is no self never has been and never will be?

This time I want you to notice your thoughts, but instead of allowing the thought train to be your single mode of answering.

I want you to see the thought for what it is, then return to the question.

Let the words that appear on your response be words describe your direct experience.

What is happening here, in the most intimate embrace of your actual experience.

Some questions that come that you don’t have to answer but can be pointers are…. Are your thoughts an argument against the question? Is there some resistance when the question is asked? Is the emotional body affected when the question is asked? Why do thoughts become so animated when the question is asked?

Keep coming back to the initial question. ‘There is no self never has been and never will be?’

Aside to that. Inviting honesty. If frustration arises - tell me. If doubt arises, also tell me.

Thank you

Marcus

[Stina]

Hi Marcus. I feel so stupid. I don't really know what you mean. I feel frustration and I wanted to give up today. Something in me tells me: „You see, I told you, it is not for you, you will fail, just let it be and live your life".
But I don’t want to give up.
I repeat it the whole day in my head.

‘There is no self never has been and never will be?’

There is a lot of resistance to look and a lot of frustration. I get angry. I want to run from it. If there is no self, what am I, this person, this body? What are my children? Does it mean, they don’t exist? So stupid. Of course, they exist. If I don’t exist, what was my life up to now? Does it mean, I can give everything up? Let me be carried by life? Try it, don’t pay bills, just once. What happens?

‘There is no self never has been and never will be?’

I tell myself again and again. Look for the "I". Where is it? Who is frustrated? Who is angry? What is behind the frustration and anger? Fear. How does the fear look like? It is big and red with a scary face, stands in front of me. Like a big red cloud. Behind the big red cloud with scary face standing in my way is blue sky and sunshine and feeling of happiness.

‘There is no self never has been and never will be?’

I sense my body, I sense my thoughts, I sense my feelings, I mean, I am aware of it. And when I am aware of it, I can not be it. Can I? And what or who is aware? I have a picture of a mini person living in the middle of my body. But I can not find it. When I look inside, or when I feel inside, there is a hole.

I will try again and again.
Thank you, Marcus, for your patience. Stina