I'm done with suffering and the human experience

[Matt]

Thoughts surely have value; they are being enjoyed right now, no?
• Is there a thinker found anywhere in addition to the thoughts?

Sounds like you'd like to be free of suffering....
• Next time there is suffering, please check and see if there is a sufferer, an entity that is suffering.

Were these fully answered? When I make bullets • it means I hope you'll answer each of those question directly....
From last round:

• Is the i"llusory self" that is experienced right now an actual self?

Seeing no-self has occurred for you many times now, based on your reports of looking for one. Every valid experiment has brought the same results. The data is in....

• How many times did you find zero self at this point? How much proof is needed? How much data needs to be collected?

• If you keep looking for a self, do you believe that you'll eventually find one? Maybe the 6,000 time you look there will be a real self there, in addition to the illusion?

Thanks!

[2plus2is5]

• Is there a thinker found anywhere in addition to the thoughts?
no, there is a thought or not

Sounds like you'd like to be free of suffering....
• Next time there is suffering, please check and see if there is a sufferer, an entity that is suffering.
you mean there is no 'poor me'? who is the one who will miss 'poor me', when it is gone? How can a thought miss another thought cluster? What is the missing? it is a thought + sensations = a feeling (called sadness / missing something).
SO, thoughts and sensations create a feeling - they create the illusory sense of something. A thought without sensations does not hold much weight. Is there a sufferer? well I thought there was . is there an entity that is suffering?. - if so, I feel sorry for it.
To be honest, there feels like there is a sufferer. Lack of sleep last night, there are sensations in the body - and then a thought trying to own them to create an entity - one of suffering. So, i can see that thoughts create a narative based on sensations which are occuring. I know there is no sufferer, but it feels like there is

• Is the i"llusory self" that is experienced right now an actual self?
no, it is a thought creation. and as long as thoughts feel real or are believe the illusion is there .
I do not know who is the one who believes in thoughts or not. there is no one there. thoughts get believed or not. But it does feel like an entity that decides whether to beleive a thoguth or not. for example: "wow I feel more peace since i stopped beliving a specific thought!"


Seeing no-self has occurred for you many times now, based on your reports of looking for one. Every valid experiment has brought the same results. The data is in....

• How many times did you find zero self at this point? How much proof is needed? How much data needs to be collected?
10-15 times or more i have found zero self....i have lost count!

• If you keep looking for a self, do you believe that you'll eventually find one? Maybe the 6,000 time you look there will be a real self there, in addition to the illusion?.
hahah. No, there will be no finding of a self. Just unpicking thoughts and sensations that refer to a fake I. Conditioning remains.

[Matt]

hahah. No, there will be no finding of a self.

This is very good; you now recognize and admit the fact that you're never going to find one, no matter how long or intently you look. This is a turning point.

So now, just look at or sense that absence. Everything can remain as it is; "suffering", "conditioning", "thoughts", "narratives", "illusion", etc.; that's not our concern. Our only concern is dwelling on this absence, this openness or emptiness where we thought the 'I' was. This is your non-verbal "mantra", dwelling on, exploring this absence. Stay with it as much as possible, get fascinated in it or in love with it.

• How is that absence or emptiness experienced, what is it like?

[2plus2is5]

So now, just look at or sense that absence. Everything can remain as it is; "suffering", "conditioning", "thoughts", "narratives", "illusion", etc.; that's not our concern. Our only concern is dwelling on this absence, this openness or emptiness where we thought the 'I' was. This is your non-verbal "mantra", dwelling on, exploring this absence. Stay with it as much as possible, get fascinated in it or in love with it.

hi Matt,

Thank you. yes i have been doing it is much as possible, or as much as "I" remembers to do it.

• How is that absence or emptiness experienced, what is it like?

its different everyday. For example, right now I just had some struggling around accepting that thoughts come from nowhere and there is no way to know what thoughts will come, and not only am I not in control of how well i remember to do things or how well i do a meditation, but worse than that, there is no one. i don't like it. again some fear and freaking out and also sadness and grief.
and now a few minutes have passed and the fear is dissolving. There is clearly a thought that says "you need to worry about this, etc"
all the best

[Matt]

Hi, again I think the sadness and grief are important to watch carefully. I can't help much through this forum, so it's in your hands alone:

Does it feel like the healing form of grief, in which you are letting go of the trauma of believing yourself to be a separate individual?

Or does it feel like denial — like there is some 'violence' being done through the inquiry? That would be the wrong approach. Remember, we are not denying or getting rid of or killing the 'self'; that would be a change in status. We are noticing something that has always been true; there is no change in status from self to no-self.

The outcome of looking should be more like lightness, freedom, peace, transparency. Please let me know if sadness and grief feel like you're being hurt, or if they persist. Thanks.

[Matt]

Hi, what is being experienced now?
It has been a couple days. These questions should be answered; sorry I didn't put bullets next to them:

• Does it feel like the healing form of grief, in which you are letting go of the trauma of believing yourself to be a separate individual?

• Or does it feel like denial — like there is some 'violence' being done through the inquiry?

If it's still relevant, please answer, and let me know how it's going.

Best,
M

[2plus2is5]

such good questions!! i think it is both. Sometimes violence sometimes a healthy grief .

that is no persistence of the grief. Only at low moments or fleeting moments then these thoughts are attracted.

Monday i was in a good mood, Tuesday I there was a lot of adhd type behaviourr / anger . Today in a better mood but different to monday. I feel different everyday! On tuesday when i was struggling i saw a thought "i can't do this anymore", and then saw it as just a thought . Today there is more aligning with the no self with a positive feelings and thoughts about it (which are probably irrelevant!), but its more like an attitude of "well thats great!" Seeing more - the difference between DE and thought content. Seeing that the "me" can only exist in the content of thought, and that thought content holds no weight. Defintely a softening of the story happening. But somedays (like Tuesday), I wake up in the morning to what feels like embodiment of thoughts .....very tricky.... luck of the draw when I wake up. Today is more light than yesterday. everyday different

best wishes to you

[2plus2is5]

also noticing that when there is a good mood here there is a desire to retain it. and when a bad mood a lot of judgement and efforts to change it.

[Matt]

Seeing that the "me" can only exist in the content of thought, and that thought content holds no weight.

This is great, and it is the only purpose of the forum and our discussion; unravelling all of the reactions and conditioning and emotions and stories are your own continuing work for however many years it takes.

Also, when I asked,

• If you keep looking for a self, do you believe that you'll eventually find one? Maybe the 6,000 time you look there will be a real self there, in addition to the illusion?.

You answered,

hahah. No, there will be no finding of a self...

So you're ready; I'd like to invite you to the "Gate" questions now, to allow you to test and deepen your own clarity on the specific issue of no-self. If you can't use the quote function, please copy each question to your response in blue as before, and give your honest answer beneath each number....

• 1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

• 2) Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

• 3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

• 4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?

• 5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

• 6) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

• 7) Anything to add?

[2plus2is5]

Hi mate,
not sure i am feel I am through the gate. But I am very willing and happy to answer these questions honestly from how I am feeling today.

• 1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

there was an illusory one and still the hangover of that exists in programmes and sensations.
there is no real entity of me or I or self, literally nothing there in reality. In DE there is no me

• 2) Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.

. I was given a name. In school I was given reviews about my character and behaviour. I was praised for behaving well at home and in school. and "told off" when i was bad. I invented a concept of shame based on when i was told off. "im not good enough". - referring to the character of me and my name. I think when I hear my name or when i hear the word "you" , i turn around like when you call a cat of dogs name. I had a polio vaccination as a kid and I was praised for staying calm afterwards. I created on identity that i must not be too much trouble and should not be a burden and therefore I started to be alone with my negative feelings. Basically when the identity was created then beliefs started sticking!

. Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

. i dont know if much has changed. i can see there is a fluctuation of whether I take things personally or not. Sometimes I have feeling in a certain prolonged emotion and I can tend to react quickly and take things personally. Other times I don't take thing personally and observe the feedback as a place to grow. I am not sure if life has changed apart from sometimes being stuck in a certain feeling / belief and then inquiring into that and finding nothing! which is really interesting and helpful, and happens or not by itself.

• 3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

i dont feel any different, so its a bit disappointing. but i would say the difference is that there were many stones unturned in this inquiry and so I take myself slightly less seriously in certain ways e.g. when recieivng feedback or how I spend my days. but it fluctuates, somedays I can feel very sensitive and take things personally - like an agitated animal.

• 4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?

not really. I had some mini-ones along the way. I cannot name a clear point where I got it.

• 5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

decisions happen like grass grows - mysteriously and and on their own. those brain scan images show areas in the brain that light up, and decision are made and then the narative comes in i.e. thoughts create a story that "I" made a decision.
Not really sure what intention is - sounds like a thought. / concept
Free will is non-existant - thoughts give the illusion of free will and a "person" having free will
choice - same as decisions
control - this has been the hardest for me, thoughts claiming they have control e.g. in how long thoughts are engaged with or what is going to happen today and the plans.
what makes things happen? life, electricity, impusives , energy. mystery! I don't know how it works. You could say programmes are running like softwares and. these can be upgraded depending on what a person gets exposure to, so behaviours can change and learning can happen but to no one, there are jjust programmes.

Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

i see that my hand scratches the head on its own. a decision to do something happens, I cannot pinpoint when it starts but there is an urge e.g. to go downstairs , and then going downstairs happens based on factors that are not known. If the weather is good I want to go outside, if I am bored I want to do something, essentially programmes running. If the weather is cold and certain factors are in place then I dont want to go outside, but i am not doing that, there is no I.

• 6) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

sadly nothing, there is no ownership. Only work and relationships give me false recognition for good and bad behaviour or performance.

• 7) Anything to add?

i dont feel any different. Well maybe today there is more of a pointlessness going on, sI am quite slow and not too efficient or motivated to do great things. I will have a walk in nature soon and see what happens

all the best

[Matt]

Thanks!
Sounds great.
Any "disappointment", "finding no big changes", etc. are happening to no-one, you already get that! ;o) No problem, and it can take a while for those impressions to fade away.
I'm actually traveling for a couple days; how about letting this sink in, enjoying nature, as you said, etc....
Stay interested in the wondrous openness and emptiness where it seemed you were there controlling, being praised and blamed, enjoying, not enjoying. Every time a "problem" or emotion comes up, you just look and see that it doesn't pertain to a 'you'....
I'll check in in a couple days, feel free to post. Feel free to go over those "Gate questions" again, etc.

[Matt]

Hey, how are you?

[2plus2is5]

Hi matt,


Up and down. Nature was good today and I was walking very slowly.. i can try and answer the questions again tomorrow. I don't think there has been a shift. Still a self here . Probably its ownship of thoughts and body sensations = emotions. Ownership of emotions is the issue i think

[Matt]

OK, the mind is bringing doubts that 'no-self' has been seen.
However, seeing has happened — the mind doesn't want to accept it.

I don't think there has been a shift. Still a self here.

• Was there ever a self there?

Compare the above to your authentic answer here:

• If you keep looking for a self, do you believe that you'll eventually find one? Maybe the 6,000th time that you look there will be a real self there, in addition to the illusion?
hahah. No, there will be no finding of a self. Just unpicking thoughts and sensations that refer to a fake I. Conditioning remains.

The question is not is there still a "FAKE self". A "fake self" could hang around forever and it would be no problem at all.
• What exactly would be the difference between a "fake self" and a "real self"?

....

Ownership of emotions is the issue i think

Great, let's focus on this, so you can get clear on the fact that you have in fact "seen through".
An emotion arises.... The mind proclaims ownership.... You look for that owner.....
• In direct experience, where are the contours or edges of this owner?
• In direct experience, where exactly is this owner located?
• If it's a real owner, it must have control over emotions. Can this owner decide what emotions to bring out of storage and which ones to put away? How many emotions does he or she own? Can he or she sell the ones he or she doesn't want any more? Surely not all of them are a good investment, so if there's an emotion that's not benefitting the portfolio, a real owner could get rid of it.
• In actual experience, do you find an emotion owner (or even an emotion broker) in addition to the emotion?

[2plus2is5]

Was there ever a self there?

no!

The question is not is there still a "FAKE self". A "fake self" could hang around forever and it would be no problem at all.
• What exactly would be the difference between a "fake self" and a "real self"?

fake self is a fiction, an imagination. Relf self - if was real would exist in DE, but in DE a real self cannot be found. DE is truth and shows no real self.

Great, let's focus on this, so you can get clear on the fact that you have in fact "seen through".
An emotion arises.... The mind proclaims ownership.... You look for that owner.....
• In direct experience, where are the contours or edges of this owner?

cannot be found

• In direct experience, where exactly is this owner located?

nothing to find

• If it's a real owner, it must have control over emotions. Can this owner decide what emotions to bring out of storage and which ones to put away? How many emotions does he or she own? Can he or she sell the ones he or she doesn't want any more? Surely not all of them are a good investment, so if there's an emotion that's not benefitting the portfolio, a real owner could get rid of it.

. certainly, if there was a real owner they would be able to get rid of it. In reality, emotions get felt or not, no owner

• In actual experience, do you find an emotion owner (or even an emotion broker) in addition to the emotion?

absolutely not. Only in thoughts could an imaginary one exist - which is irrelevant.

i feel like im going through those 100s or 1000s of beliefs. its quite enjoyable to work through them, but probably annoying for the guide (you!)

to reiterate - there are thoughts, and there are also body sensations. A sensation is there, and then a story runs in thoughts claiming ownship of the sensation and the story behind it. But thoughts are just made up stuff mostly. and there is no one seperate from the sensation. but a thought saying "i am feeling a sensation"