Ready to dive in...

[ixturtle]

ixturtle wrote:HOW TO GET OUT FROM UNDER ALL THIS SUFFERING?

this may be a key; Tell me how vince would answer this...

i imagine derek asking:
who is the "I" that is suffering? LOOK.

I imagine camr-RT shouting:
"WHAT SUFFERING?!! SEE THE TRICK? THE THOUGHT THAT YOU MUST GET OUT FROM UNDER THE SUFFERING IS WHAT CREATES THE SUFFERING!!!!"

I image eloratea saying:
would be more true to describe the direct perception as 'labeling of suffering happens due to various causes'

and vince i imagine would say:
you get out from suffering simply by seeing that THIS IS IT. see the suffering come and go, watch it as it happens. there is nothing to do, just simply see if for what it is-- sensations, thoughts, emotions, stories-- allowing it all to be there because it IS. and there is no allowing to be done, because it is already allowed. as you see the dramas come and go, the content of the stories carry less and less weight. nothing needs to change (though it might). just seeing that what is, IS, is enough.

or something like that...

[vinceschubert]

Beautifully said.
Can you see how this is a portal into All of Life-ing ?
See how the suffering encompasses everything ?
See how it permeates life-ing ?
See how it is built completely on the foundation of concept ?

[ixturtle]

Oh dear... I get the words in your questions but maybe not the depth of them.

See how it is built completely on the foundation of concept ?

Suffering as concept... yes, I got that. Only lives in the mind. One question that arises with respect to this is that we also use the word to describe a badly injured animal-- where there is no story (for the animal anyway), just present moment pain. I remember watching once a 3/4 burned rabbit hobbling out of a bonfire --heart wrenching image, especially its eyes-- which we "put out of its suffering." obviously, the heart wrenching part is my story but it would be hard for me to say that that animal wasn't suffering, story or no story.

Speaking of animals, in the gateless gate there is an instruction to watch chickens, and all summer long i watched the ducks do all kinds of petty things, especially the two mama's vis-a-vis each other's ducklings. instinct, i understand. no story. they'd get mad, but there was no grief or resentment. still, i never really "got" what that instruction was pointing to.

See how the suffering encompasses everything ?

think i'm missing this somehow. yes, pretty much everyone everywhere has a problem with what IS and thus suffers accordingly. the problem is of course not what "IS" but having a problem with it. so suffering encompasses everything as long as it's rejected from what's here (or the possibility of it no longer being here is rejected). is that what you're getting at.

Can you see how this is a portal into All of Life-ing ?

Life-ing is just what ever is happening now, yes? So seeing that suffering results from rejection of what IS, the "portal" is then it's opposite... acceptance, allowance, non-judgment, no opinion (even re., the rejection, judgment and opinions if that's what's here). is that it?

[vinceschubert]

but it would be hard for me to say that that animal wasn't suffering, story or no story.

No, you were suffering. The animal was (maybe) in pain.
Suffering = pain + story.

no story. they'd get mad, but there was no grief or resentment.

i imagine that this is what was being pointed to.

think i'm missing this somehow.

No, you're not missing it.

so suffering encompasses everything as long as it's rejected from what's here (or the possibility of it no longer being here is rejected). is that what you're getting at.

yes, or even getting what is desired and immediately wanting the next thing or worrying about losing it.

the "portal" is then it's opposite... acceptance, allowance, non-judgment, no opinion (even re., the rejection, judgment and opinions if that's what's here). is that it?

yes (again) and the way isn't to do the opposite, but to totally accept it in all of its' permutations. (which results in the opposite) What you said.
How do we move all of this from just words to living it ?

[ixturtle]

How do we move all of this from just words to living it ?

yes. last night button got pushed, and lots of story showed up and also another one, which said that if "no-self" was truly seen through, then just seeing the story show up would be enough to also see its lack of substance, even as the mental/emotional response persisted. there was some mental recognition of substance-less (which sounded a bit like judgment); meanwhile the inner mental/emotional response was strong and that coupled with frustration at not being able to see through the story at all ("and therefore i most definitely have no direct experience with no-self") resulted in a miserable night.

letting it all be is first and foremost letting all that (including the machinations of the mind) BE. and also the sadness that is here now. looking at the story from here/now, the layers of stories are obvious, the most painful being the one about not being able to see through it (in other words, to "get it"), which as you know by now, is the oldest story there is. but a story nonetheless...

as for this moment-- all of the preceding blah blah blah is part of what's here. what is, as is. but nothing to "do" about it. a bit of helplessness present, though that too can be included.

[vinceschubert]

meanwhile the inner mental/emotional response was strong

Deeply rooted conditioning will take more than one exposure to weaken and evaporate, but it will/is happen(ing).

no direct experience with no-self

This will never happen. How can you experience what is not there.
If you are driving along a country road and you decide that you are lost, then you come to a signpost, are you still lost? Were you lost minutes before, or did it just seem that way ?

not being able to see through the story

You DID see the process, even though the strength of the button response was big. And during the night when you were miserable, i'll bet there was spots of SEEing. It may have been that you have a story that this stuff will make you feel good perpetually.

[ixturtle]

thank you as always for your thoughtful responses. i was half expecting a zen stick for taking my"self" so damn seriously.

If you are driving along a country road and you decide that you are lost, then you come to a signpost, are you still lost? Were you lost minutes before, or did it just seem that way ?

Ha ha! I love this. Right. Never lost. Only just don't know you're not lost, yet. Good one. Reminds me a little of the Sufi story where the guy gets chased by monsters in a maze but what he doesn't know is that the monsters are all along chasing him right towards the wall where his beloved awaits on the other side.

It may have been that you have a story that this stuff will make you feel good perpetually.

I claim not to have this story, but when any kind of seeing happens, I feel amazing. Both to unhook from the drama and also to just leg go into life but ALSO because in that moment there's a ephemeral flash of "oh i get it" which is a huge contrast and relief to the underlying story/struggle that "i don't get it and never will." but both are stories.

[vinceschubert]

ix, do you have hopes ?

[ixturtle]

do you have hopes ?

well... since "you" implies a "self" and "hope" implies "time", and since we have established that both "self" and "time" are imaginary projections of the mind, it seems the only "correct" answer would be "no".

the second thing that comes to mind is pema chodron's instruction to "give up hope."

but if we get down to the marrow of what's alive in the mind right here, right now... YES!!!

ix's hopes:
1) that there is more peace and less suffering (in heart/mind, in relationships, in this community, in the world)
2) that when this life nears its end, i will be laughing and content with a life well lived

that's probably enough to cover it, but i'll add:

3) that this heart meets/opens to/sees/knows/embraces/allows "love" in its most expansive (or rather ever expanding) sense
4) that this particular unique expression of "life-ing" continues to explore and grow even as its perception of its own boundaries dissolves

when i read these again, i see that yes, there is here now a bit more peace and a bit less suffering (at least in this heart/mind) and that there is often both laughter and contentment. clearly there is also much exploration and growth and in subtle ways, dissolution of boundaries too. oh but the love bit. that one has me by the jugular.





there was a period last year where i had absorbed bentinho massero's "already allowed" mantra, and in so doing, there was a subsequent softening around all but the subtlest of seeking. but the seeking eventually creeped back in again, leading me to this website and to the "intention" of seeing through "the self."

[vinceschubert]

that one has me by the jugular.

Say more on this...

[ixturtle]

there seems to be some story running about love as awareness as non-separation as the most profound and ultimate truth and my own historical sense of inadequacy (and corresponding hurt/sadness) in this regard. obviously for it to be profound and ultimate, it includes/transcends the perceived inadequacy. i guess it struck me that i could own in present tense at least in some sense the other three hopes (there by losing the sense of time if not the sense of self) but the other one had a quality of alienation (and a bit of child's pout) that was hard to miss.

[vinceschubert]

Love is such a contaminated word these days, that it is almost better not to use it, but i follow your pointing.
Much of what you describe, is now seen here as the default state (reality before story induced distortion).
An open, willing acceptance of what IS, tinged with appreciation and a huge Wonder at the constant discovery that is occurring. When this is focused on other people, a compassion emerges along with the realisation that they are actually a projection of 'me', and indeed are revealing something more about this organism... provokes an almost painful emotion that can conveniently be labeled Love.

[ixturtle]

An open, willing acceptance of what IS, tinged with appreciation and a huge Wonder at the constant discovery that is occurring.

Love this. :-)

Had a monster story running the last 36 hours-- just kept running and running and running. Haven't had a doozy like that in a long long time and there are still little pieces popping back in. There were a number of moments (especially towards the beginning) where I could see the whole giant non-stop talking mural of it as conditioning arising, but boy there is such addiction to "being right" sometimes. At one point I had a seeing into some of the fundamental psychology behind it-- which feels useful in a way-- and at the same time produced mountains more analyzing and internal explaining/planning. Obviously what is, IS, including all that psychologizing of self, but the "interpretation of the story" also is imagined and in a way, when that jumped in, i got even more hooked.

the answer is always the same, but if you have thoughts on this they would be appreciated.

[vinceschubert]

and at the same time produced mountains more analyzing and internal explaining/planning.

The way of the mind.

but if you have thoughts on this they would be appreciated.

Ha, my thoughts on this are the same; "What's it going to take for this wise, lovely person to drop the chains that are no longer shackled ???"

[ixturtle]

"What's it going to take for this wise, lovely person to drop the chains that are no longer shackled ???"

My inner felt response to this question suggests a belief that dropping the chains means dropping EVERYTHING and there is obviously some fear around that. The mind is very comfortable with it's role in figuring things out, and from a standard view, seeing through to some of the core beliefs and commitments that have been driving the current (still ruminating) story certainly has been illuminating and will no doubt offer the personality some room to grow and stretch. BUT the compulsive quality of the thoughts suggest that this too is driven by fear and the desire for control.

I remember really appreciating in gateless gate the logic of upending the central belief and in so doing, letting all the other ones fall in pieces around it. There is a sense that there's been more access to seeing through some the beliefs currently at play because of the work we've been doing (even though the persistence and intensity of mental habit has felt a bit overwhelming and in moments, discouraging). But just pulling the central pin out and letting everything fall seems a lot easier and a lot more effective...

HOWEVER when i hear "drop the chains" i feel like it means running through the world buck naked with the wind in my hair, and that strikes a resonant chord in this heart to be sure, but is not an image that feels compatible (at all) with a household and a relationship and a job. the mental machinations are obviously operating in an attempt to preserve and improve the status quo (suggesting a belief that the mental machinations are what hold this life together which i know is like saying that the label toilet is what makes the toilet work).

yet, to drop any allegiance to the stories feels like jumping out of an airplane without a parachute. there is trust on some level that awareness itself is the parachute. i would ask where the plane is but i know it's right here and right now. i would ask where the door is but i know it's right here and right now. i'd ask to jump double, but i suppose there is no one outside of myself to ask. what does door mean? what does jump mean? at the moment what's happening is a lot of excuses and hanging on tight to whatever feels somewhat stable and comfortable (the logic of the mind). and how do you jump when you can't "do" jumping anyway?