Liberation from self

[bretharte]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the idea of self is just a belief, a thought, a constellation of thoughts and beliefs, and not anything that actually exists. That a lot of suffering is caused by the belief in a self that should be a certain way, should do certain things.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for help in facilitating a shift in my perception of who I am. I know that "I" exist, but my understanding of what actually exists is an illusion, something that is not what it appears to be. I would like to experience directly and clearly what I am or are not.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I am hoping that a guide would be able to give me very focused and effective questions or practices that would help me see more clearly the unreality of a self. Also, someone that would keep trying with me if it took a while.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I took the Finders Course from Jeffery Martin two and a half years ago and just recently took his 45 day course. It's an fairly intensive meditation course. As a result of the course I have had glimpses of awareness, experiences of being one with the universe but they are very short lived and haven't translated into my feeling more peace on a daily basis. I have a very negative sense of self and that has caused me a great deal of suffering. I think that if I could clearly and definitively see that there is no self that that would begin to help me know what is truer about my experience of life.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[warissem]

Good morning

I am glad to walk with you along the way to see through the illusion of a separate self.

There are some agreements to be with during our dialog :

Read the disclaimer text
Learn how to use the quote function
Check here in the forum once a day to find my questions or to answer them, even when you have not got any notification.
Leave aside all the books, videos, audios about spirituality, advaita, ...
Answer with a great honesty to my questions and practice the exercises even if they look childish

When you agree for all of this, we can begin.

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hello, Warissem,
First of all, thank you so much for offering to help me see through the illusion of the self. I am so appreciative and thankful that you are willing to offer your time and help. Secondly, where do I found out how to use the quote function? I'm not sure what you are referring to. I've read the disclaimer text, I will not watch or read any books about spirituality, except I am in the middle of reading Liberation Unleashed by Ilona. Would you like me to stop reading that as well? I will answer your questions with complete honesty and practice your exercises. I will check in on this forum daily. Look forward to working with you and thank you again.
Francesca

[bretharte]

I just saw where the quote function is so that question is answered.

[warissem]

Hi francesca

Yes, you can continue to read the gate crashers book.

What do you expect to happen after having seen through the illusion of a separate self ?
Do you expect a change of your life ? If so, how?
What is missing now ?

Warossem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warossem,
Is that how you spell your name? At first it came up as Warissem. I'm sorry if I misspelled it, I'm not familiar with that name.

What do I expect to happen after having seen through the illusion of a separate self?
I expect that a lot of the thoughts around “myself” will either drop away or be seen through and not believed and not affect me as much. Also, about a month ago, I had two very impactful experiences when I was sitting on my deck, looking out at the hillside and the trees. I saw how extraordinarily beautiful the world was and I felt included in that beauty. It felt that a barrier came down in my mind, so that I was able to experience the world that way. I know now that that experience of the world is always there, even though I am not always able to access it. Another piece of the experience was that somehow my “self” had to not be there in order for me to experience the world that way, that in some way the “self” was a filter or the barrier that was in the way. I don’t expect that if the illusion of a separate self is seen through that I will immediately experience life this way all the time, but that hopefully that experience will be more available to me as I continue to deepen into awareness and presence.
Do you expect a change of your life? If so, how?
I don’t expect a huge change in the circumstances of my life, but I hope that seeing through this illusion will allow me more peace and calm and a greater ability to enjoy being alive.

What is missing now?
Good question. I think what is missing now is that a lot of the time I experience life through the filter of this self, and my
constructed self is a very negative one, so how I experience life is clouded by many negative thoughts about myself. So what's missing now is an ability to simply experience what's happening without all these negative thoughts and judgments being in the foreground and obscuring what's actually happening.

Thank you again for your help and I hope my answers are useful.

Francesca

[warissem]

Hi Francesca

Your expectations are realistic, you are so familiar with this stuff of no separate self.

Now, I want to introduce you in the Looking at direct experience : which means "don't be lost in thought stories"
here is an example : when I ask about the color of the wall of your kitchen, there are two ways of giving an answer :

1) Get up, go to the kitchen and look at the wall to SEE the answer (the color of the wall, let's say : white) . This way is what is called Looking at direct experience.
2) Give the answer from memory without looking : this kind of answer is to be avoided during our dialog.

Direct experience is : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations. Thoughts and concepts are used only for communication.

If you are not clear about looking at direct experience, I'll give you exercises.

About the quote function : select my question or any sentence you want to quote. Then push the quote button above.

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,
Thanks for the info about the quote function. I completely understand about looking at the direct experience of something, rather than thoughts about something, so I can definitely look at whatever you ask me to look at without referring or relying on thoughts about "it".
Thanks again,
Francesca

[warissem]

Hi Francesca

Great. As we know, the illusion of a separate self resides in thoughts, then you begin with an exercise about thoughts and their functioning.

take your time for each question.
Quote the question then give your answer.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Is there a thinker of thoughts ?

Best for you

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warrissem,
That was a very powerful and actually scary exercise. I had a lot of body reaction to just noticing the thoughts that arose and I cried quite a bit. So I think we're on the right track. I don't think I have ever looked so directly at thoughts and it was very bizarre. They just show up out of nowhere, it seems like they arise in my head but actually I can't say that that is accurate. Thoughts are very mysterious and since they have run my life up till now, its kind of surprising that I have never really looked directly at them. A lot of them were very difficult to catch - they came up and disappeared very quickly

Where are they coming from and going to?

I don't know where they are coming from, they just appear randomly, it seems. They don't go anywhere, they just disappear.
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No, I had nothing to do with making a particular thought or thoughts appear. It was completely out of my control.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No, I had no control over the thoughts at all so I could not make a different thought appear, I had no control over the thoughts at all.

Can you predict your next thought?

No, I cannot. I used to think that I could predict the next thought that would come, especially if there was a directly thought stream, but after this experience I can't say that that is true. The next thought comes, even if it's related and in answer to the previous thought, but I do not cause it to show up. It just shows up.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Absolutely not. It was so clear that I had no control whatsoever over the thoughts and I have no idea what they are or where they come from.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No, that is not possible. All you could possibly do is not react to a thought, maybe, but that might not be within one's control either.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing

Again, no, absolutely not. No control whatsoever over thoughts.

Is there a thinker of thoughts ?

This is the only question that I have had trouble with in the past and I'm still not completely certain about the answer to this. It always seemed that I was the thinker of the thoughts. But after this experience, that does not seem to be what is happening. Thoughts are appearing, they are being experienced, but that seems different than there being a thinker, perhaps because it was so obvious that there was no control over the thoughts. I can't say I am 100% certain that there is no thinker, but only in the sense that the thoughts have landed somewhere, and is that somewhere "the thinker"? I'm not sure.
It was scary to look at the thoughts that I had always believed were somehow connected to me and somehow defined me and to see that they were so not that. It made me really not know who or what I am.
Thank you so much for this exercise. It was very revealing. Let me know if I am doing the quoting correctly.
Francesca

[warissem]

Hi Francesca

You are doing good and I see your excitement from here. Some comments about the last question.

This is the only question that I have had trouble with in the past and I'm still not completely certain about the answer to this. It always seemed that I was the thinker of the thoughts. But after this experience, that does not seem to be what is happening. Thoughts are appearing, they are being experienced, but that seems different than there being a thinker, perhaps because it was so obvious that there was no control over the thoughts. I can't say I am 100% certain that there is no thinker, but only in the sense that the thoughts have landed somewhere, and is that somewhere "the thinker"? I'm not sure.

The belief in being a thinker is shaked but is not thrown away yet. Even you have seen that thoughts are coming from nowhere. If there is a thinker you will know it. Is a thought a thinker ? Is a sensation a thinker ?

It was scary to look at the thoughts that I had always believed were somehow connected to me and somehow defined me and to see that they were so not that. It made me really not know who or what I am.

Not knowing is a best place to be, the silence of not knowing, the knowing of not knowing, ... do you see this?

Thank you so much for this exercise. It was very revealing.

You are welcome.

Let me know if I am doing the quoting correctly.

Select only my questions, one at a time. Don't quote your answers.

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem

Is a thought a thinker ?

No, a thought is not a thinker.

Is a sensation a thinker ?

No, a sensation is very clearly not a thinker either.

Not knowing is a best place to be, the silence of not knowing, the knowing of not knowing, ... do you see this?

Yes, I see this is a good place to be, because I am no longer believing something that is not true, and there is an opening and a space for seeing what is actually here.
I think what was so unsettling was to see how powerful thoughts are, they really create the world we live in, and to see that I have no control over them whatsoever is rather frightening.
Thank you for your help.
Francesca

[warissem]

Good morning

Yes, I see this is a good place to be, because I am no longer believing something that is not true, and there is an opening and a space for seeing what is actually here.

Yes, great.

I think what was so unsettling was to see how powerful thoughts are, they really create the world we live in, and to see that I have no control over them whatsoever is rather frightening.

What comes up when you read this :
There is no you to take or don't take control over thoughts or whatever, there is no you at all, no separate self living a separate life.
There is nothing to be afraid of, life is taking care of itself.

Best for you

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,

What comes up when you read this :
There is no you to take or don't take control over thoughts or whatever, there is no you at all, no separate self living a separate life.

So, I lay down and started looking at the thoughts that were showing up and what came up was that the experience of "me" is entirely constructed from thoughts. No thoughts, no me. When I saw the other day that I had no control over the thoughts I realized that the "me" that was constructed by thoughts was something I had no role in constructing, because I had no control over the thoughts that created the "me". So, at this point, I am still believing in a "me", but seeing that its only made up of thoughts. It feels like that's as far as I can go right now. It feels like I may fall off a cliff if I acknowledge that thoughts are not real, therefore I am not real. I know this is not exactly responding to the above statements, but that is where I am right now. Also, I'm not sure about the assumption that if I see that there is no self, that there is no separation. I can't quite make that leap at this moment from no self to no separation.

There is nothing to be afraid of, life is taking care of itself.

I keep telling myself that nothing has really changed, that this has always been the situation, I'm just seeing it for what it is, that "I" have been taken care of by life. It feels like I need to take this a little slowly, if that is ok.
Thank you,
Francesca

[bretharte]

Just another thought that came to me tonight. That the thought of a self is a useful tool for communicating and getting along with other people, but its just that - a tool. But somehow almost everyone believes it is who they are and get completely caught up in the story of a self. Its like an actor believing he's the character he is playing. That's a comforting thought at this point. Please let me know your thoughts.
Thank you,
Francesca