Why do I feel I exist when I know that I don't?

[odemira]

Good evening Dave

I guess "peaceful" would be the word that comes closest? or "still" maybe, but still seems cold and lifeless, which this isn't.
Mellow, I LIKE mellow :) or calm...... pick one they're all just words! Haha! Sorry, I feel a tad exuberant for some reason,

So, has the shift happened? Have you SEEN through the illusion of a self? Are you ready for our final questions, or is there more clearing away to be done?

Have you seen the magic eye images? The pictures that you stare at and maybe eventually spot another image hidden within them? Once you've seen that hidden image once, you know it's there beyond a shadow of a doubt, even if you can't see it all of the time. Can you see the relevance of this example to seeing there is no self lurking inside anywhere?

Welcome home!
with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Hi Odemira,

So, has the shift happened? Have you SEEN through the illusion of a self? Are you ready for our final questions, or is there more clearing away to be done?

I don't think there's been a "shift", and I'm not sure there ever will be either, but more of a slow dissolution?

Something feels different for sure, though vacillation is still apparently happening, I can't find a "me" too often. In fact, the question "what is me" just draws a blank ... as in zero, zilch, nothing! I have to mentally construct it, using reason and memory almost e.g. "Me is a word used to describe this body/mind/personality etc"..... but there's no feeling there much, I don't feel like "me".

It's going to be interesting to see what happens when I get among people again, though to be honest I feel like staying home and soaking this in for a while (Not an option).

I've been here before and it "went away", so I don't feel ready to commit yet. I know what you're going to say to that... "How can "it" go away?" And "Who is not ready to commit?" Haha!

Have you seen the magic eye images? The pictures that you stare at and maybe eventually spot another image hidden within them? Once you've seen that hidden image once, you know it's there beyond a shadow of a doubt, even if you can't see it all of the time. Can you see the relevance of this example to seeing there is no self lurking inside anywhere?

Hmmm, I never got anything from those except a headache!

I'll be back tomorrow to let you know what unfolds today.

Can't wait to see your response to this!

Dave :)

[odemira]

Hi Dave,

Something feels different for sure, though vacillation is still apparently happening, I can't find a "me" too often. In fact, the question "what is me" just draws a blank ... as in zero, zilch, nothing! I have to mentally construct it, using reason and memory almost e.g. "Me is a word used to describe this body/mind/personality etc"..... but there's no feeling there much, I don't feel like "me".

What is this 'I' that can't find a 'me'?
What is the 'I' that doesn't feel like a 'me'?
What is your mind so scared will happen if it fully lets go? It's so scared that it's hanging onto this belief in an 'I' that just can't be found anywhere?

I've been here before and it "went away", so I don't feel ready to commit yet.

Dave, what if what is being experienced now IS IT? Because it is exactly what IT IS - life is living itself. No doer, No experiencer, No controller - just life living. The thoughts that arise tell the story of 'Dave the seeker who got it before but lost it' - but that's just a story, happening to no-one. Dave is an illusion, a story constructed out of an assembly of moment by moment experiences - all that's happening is seeing, hearing, thinking etc.

You don't exist, Dave, never have ;) - How does that feel to read that?

with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Hi Odemira,

Ugh! frustrated again!

What is this 'I' that can't find a 'me'?
What is the 'I' that doesn't feel like a 'me'?

At the time there was NO "I" at all (at least it didn't feel so) just life lifeing. I was merely using the word I as a convention.

What is your mind so scared will happen if it fully lets go? It's so scared that it's hanging onto this belief in an 'I' that just can't be found anywhere?

Having thought about this, I think there IS a deep seated fear that I wasn't aware of. That I might lose the people I love in some way, become so distant as to make them desert me. That I might not care for people anymore?

Dave, what if what is being experienced now IS IT? Because it is exactly what IT IS - life is living itself. No doer, No experiencer, No controller - just life living. The thoughts that arise tell the story of 'Dave the seeker who got it before but lost it' - but that's just a story, happening to no-one. Dave is an illusion, a story constructed out of an assembly of moment by moment experiences - all that's happening is seeing, hearing, thinking etc.

*Sigh* I KNOW all this is true, I was there, there was NO self. Actually, I think there was a tiny bit of self hiding in the background still controlling, and that THAT is the problem :(

I don't know what to do other than what I'm doing, I seem to be getting to the gate and then turning away.

You don't exist, Dave, never have ;) - How does that feel to read that?

Exhausting, dejecting, disappointing, embarrassing. I feel like I'm letting you down terribly, and I also know this is all a story, I guess I'm not in a good place at the moment =\ Sorry Odemira, I guess I need to go back to square one....again!

Dave.

[odemira]

Hi Dave,

You are NOT letting me down in any way. I'm here for as long as required. It's better to be honest as you are being and say, 'no, I've not gated' rather than to say you have and then have all these doubts come up afterwards. It often happens that people get to the gate, and then turn back. Some go away and come back a few months later, some disappear. It's all just life playing out different stories. But more often there's just a few more fears lurking deep within the mind that once seen through let the mind relax.

there IS a deep seated fear that I wasn't aware of. That I might lose the people I love in some way, become so distant as to make them desert me. That I might not care for people anymore?

So you have an expectation/fear that seeing no self is going to make you distant from those you love? There are too many tales around about awakened folk sitting on park benches in a blissful non-functioning state for several years. Just tales, exceptional stories. There are hundreds of folk who have been through this forum and are living productive lives, same as before, just with less suffering, less selfcentredness. So look this fear in the face, ask it what it's protecting?

Actually, I think there was a tiny bit of self hiding in the background still controlling, and that THAT is the problem :(

You THINK this, but it's not true - there is not actually a tiny Dave sitting inside the brain pushing switches to make the body function or thinking happen. Remember, the mind works as a labelling machine, naming and claiming credit for actions after the body has completed them! Thinking happens, the next thought is 'I think'. The mind wants to create a story to explain what is happening, so it's concocting this story of 'thinking there was a tiny bit of self controlling.' But all that's every happening is seeing, hearing, thinking, etc, and the mind makes up a story from those. Check this out.

Let's really get clear on what exactly you believe 'passing the gate' might be like. What do you hope will change in your life?

I just wonder if you've got a story going on here, Dave, a subconscious belief about not being good enough, not making the grade, letting people down, letting yourself down? You wrote a bit about your school days, sounded tough, especially at a young impressionable age. It is only a belief, a thought that is thought so many times it is believed to be true. But the content of thoughts is often not true at all. There is no self to be good enough or not good enough. There is no self who can succeed or fail - it's all just life unfolding. Can you check this out?

Keep going! Remember, if the thoughts get overwhelming, focus on what is being directly seen, heard, etc.
with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Hi Odemira,

It's better to be honest as you are being and say, 'no, I've not gated' rather than to say you have and then have all these doubts come up afterwards.

If you asked me the final questions I would probably pass the test with flying colors, intellectually I believe I know all the answers. But I'm not here to get a good grade, I'm here to be free, and I'm not free!

So you have an expectation/fear that seeing no self is going to make you distant from those you love? There are too many tales around about awakened folk sitting on park benches in a blissful non-functioning state for several years. Just tales, exceptional stories. There are hundreds of folk who have been through this forum and are living productive lives, same as before, just with less suffering, less selfcentredness. So look this fear in the face, ask it what it's protecting?

It's protecting "me", something that I know doesn't exist haha!

You THINK this, but it's not true - there is not actually a tiny Dave sitting inside the brain pushing switches to make the body function or thinking happen. Remember, the mind works as a labelling machine, naming and claiming credit for actions after the body has completed them! Thinking happens, the next thought is 'I think'. The mind wants to create a story to explain what is happening, so it's concocting this story of 'thinking there was a tiny bit of self controlling.' But all that's every happening is seeing, hearing, thinking, etc, and the mind makes up a story from those. Check this out.

I see that, It's so obvious that "I" never had a thought, because there never was an "I". Thought just happens, one of the thoughts is "I", but it's always just a thought. I don't understand what the problem is, it's confusing that the penny won't drop. It all seems so simple.... Here is a body, it has a brain which makes thought. The thought is designed to protect the organism and the species. They say eat, drink, find shelter, procreate etc. So this body isn't any different in that respect than a rabbit or a frog, it's all just energy lifeing. The human mind is different in that it makes an "I" thought, but thought is just a thought, and we can easily see that, so why is this so difficult to get past it?

Let's really get clear on what exactly you believe 'passing the gate' might be like. What do you hope will change in your life?

I've lived in fear of some sort all my life, and when I examine that fear it all comes back to a "me". Also, "I" always seem to want or need "something". If "I" can be free of that "me" then "I" feel I'll be free to just get on with life freely, as everyone seems to be suggesting is possible, I just want to be free from fear, and desire. I think in all honesty, that to be free would give me the sense that I finally was someone? Made the grade? I hate to admit that, but there it is =\

I just wonder if you've got a story going on here, Dave, a subconscious belief about not being good enough, not making the grade, letting people down, letting yourself down? You wrote a bit about your school days, sounded tough, especially at a young impressionable age. It is only a belief, a thought that is thought so many times it is believed to be true. But the content of thoughts is often not true at all. There is no self to be good enough or not good enough. There is no self who can succeed or fail - it's all just life unfolding. Can you check this out?

The main "story" that's played in my mind for as long as I can remember, is that I was born on the wrong planet. That I'm playing a game in which the rules constantly change, and everyone but me gets updated on the changes. Don't get me wrong, I'm not whining, I don't particularly want to "fit in" because I think that the world we live in is absurd, I don't need to be a part of the madness. There is ALWAYS a belief that I'm not making the grade, it's prevalent in everything I do no matter what people tell me to the contrary.

But all that seems irrelevant, as you say, there is no self to be "not making the grade" Life is indeed just unfolding, and yet I see it from this non existent bubble called "me" I'm baffled as to why this is? It's just a thought, I know it's just a thought, and yet here "I" am trying to not be what I know never existed.

I'll get there eventually, thanks again for your patience!

Dave :)

[odemira]

Hi Dave,

It's good that you've dug down and found the core beliefs. These seem to be very powerful, like programs that run 'you' - but they all depend for their existence on there being an 'I'. Now that you've had the genuine seeing that there just isn't an 'I' outside of a thought, if you keep questioning the thought when it arises, the belief has to collapse. This may take repeated questioning, it may not - not in 'your' control, all just life unfolding in its own way.

You've already realised what life would be like without the beliefs:

If "I" can be free of that "me" then "I" feel I'll be free to just get on with life freely,

- in other words, life will carry on unfolding, but without the belief in what the thoughts say anymore.

What's happening for you happens for many people - undoing of conditioning carries on even after people have gated. Just keep looking every time the 'I' thought arises, and question any 'I' thought that seems to have an emotional charge to it. And spend time, like when massaging, noticing the oneness of hands and body. All of this will dissolve the core belief in an 'I that doesn't ever make the grade'. I admire the persistence and tenacity, the refusal to give up - life strongly wanting freedom! And I'll be here as long as required.

with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Hi Odemira,

I thought I posted already today, apparently I didn't hit submit or something...Oh well!

It's good that you've dug down and found the core beliefs. These seem to be very powerful, like programs that run 'you' - but they all depend for their existence on there being an 'I'. Now that you've had the genuine seeing that there just isn't an 'I' outside of a thought, if you keep questioning the thought when it arises, the belief has to collapse. This may take repeated questioning, it may not - not in 'your' control, all just life unfolding in its own way.

This is very encouraging to read, seems "I" have a plan, a course of action. Though of course I do realize there is no "I" nor is there anything to do, as there is no "I" to be rid of the "I" that never existed. :)

What's happening for you happens for many people - undoing of conditioning carries on even after people have gated. Just keep looking every time the 'I' thought arises, and question any 'I' thought that seems to have an emotional charge to it. And spend time, like when massaging, noticing the oneness of hands and body. All of this will dissolve the core belief in an 'I that doesn't ever make the grade'. I admire the persistence and tenacity, the refusal to give up - life strongly wanting freedom! And I'll be here as long as required.

Again, this is good to read, Thanks Odemira!!

Dave :)

[odemira]

Hi Dave

:)
Keep me posted.

with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Hi Odemira,

I haven't much to post today. I've had a couple days of distraction one way or another but I'm back on track again :)

I feel as if everything has slowed down somewhat, like the momentum is fading, or I'm at a plateau. When I think about this though I know that it's just mind stuff, there isn't an "I" here that is stuck. Overall I think that everything is settling in and I'm still making progress, though I still seem to be vacillating strongly. Again I see that this is just mind stuff.

Still Looking.....

Dave :)

[Dave]

Hi Odemira,

Interesting day home alone today. Not much to report, the fact that the "I" is just a thought seems to be getting more deeply ingrained :) Interesting to see this process of seeming coming and going unfold, all just life happening, but with an ever more transparent "me" trying to hold on and claim.

It still seems to take effort to bring about clarity, "me-ness" I guess has momentum!

Feeling good, more me-less!

Dave :)

[Dave]

Good morning Odemira,

Not much to report again today!

I feel good again at the moment, no me typing, just a partial body doing it's thing, thoughts pour out, the body moves/speaks whatever.

There was a feeling of missing your input, and then a small realization that Odemira was beginning to be a fill in for the Youtube crutch that I abandoned and that ANY progress to be made was going to be made by "my" looking anyway. It seems any time there is real progress it follows "my" effort, hey maybe I'm not going to pick this up through osmosis haha!

"I" still feel like "I'm" on a plateau, but I suppose that's just because of expectations, and thoughts of a fictitious "I" achieving something.

I also still have to strive, to feel me-less...... "me" still is the default setting, even though I know it's a mistake (actually, it's more true to say Lie than mistake at this point).

Having said all that, the expectation was originally to be left expectation less, and I'm not there. There's still desire, which is fuel for the fire at least as I can use it to look for that which desires, which of course I never have found =\

Still looking.....

Dave :)

[odemira]

Hiya Dave,

Let's have a look at what's going on in the 'Dave the seeker' story, shall we?

no me typing, just a partial body doing it's thing, thoughts pour out, the body moves/speaks whatever.

Yes, this is all just what is happening, and what has always been happening - sensory inputs and thoughts happening automatically.

I feel good again at the moment,

Ah, here comes the story! Dave has just been created. And Dave's believing the story of Dave.
You don't exist!!! Look and check that out again.

"I" still feel like "I'm" on a plateau, but I suppose that's just because of expectations, and thoughts of a fictitious "I" achieving something.

Fiction indeed, well spotted.

"me" still is the default setting, even though I know it's a mistake (actually, it's more true to say Lie than mistake at this point).

Yes, interesting how it begins to feel that it's a lie, that the 'I' is just pretending to exist. The sense of a self can still remain, just it's not identified with. It's just another feeling that arises. And the story still unfolds, just it's not 'your' story anymore.

the expectation was originally to be left expectation less, and I'm not there.

What is it that holds this expectation?
Is an expectation a real thing?
Or is it just the content of a thought?
What does the thought say?
You never have existed outside of a thought, Dave is just a label. Yes? Check it again.

But still the thoughts arise that Dave hasn't made the enlightenment grade yet, yes? It's the same old program running the show. Ditch the program - there is no Dave to achieve anything, never has been. It's just a story concocted from sensory inputs and thoughts and feelings. Can you find anything that is experienced other than sensory inputs and thoughts and feelings?

What has to happen, according to your thoughts, before 'Dave' is officially no more? A big bang and fireworks? A merging into the golden light of eternal bliss? What's the storyline? Whatever it is, forget it. Let it go, it's a myth, a story. What if it's the very thing that's keeping 'Dave' in place?

There was a feeling of missing your input, and then a small realization that Odemira was beginning to be a fill in for the Youtube crutch that I abandoned and that ANY progress to be made was going to be made by "my" looking anyway. It seems any time there is real progress it follows "my" effort, hey maybe I'm not going to pick this up through osmosis haha!

:)

with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Hey Odemira,

I have to leave for work now, so no time to reply fully to your post, however.......

What has to happen, according to your thoughts, before 'Dave' is officially no more?

That is a BIG question..........

Dave :)

[odemira]

And whatever answers your thoughts give are excuses, fabrications, lies.
Interesting to read them, I like a good story!