Confused about self inquiry

[Vivien]

Nice inquiry, Danna :)

Now, can you say with 100% certainty without any doubt that you've seen that there is no separate self governing life?

Is there any doubt?

If you've seen it, how does it feel to see this?

What changed since we started our inquiry?
What hasn't?

Is seeing still on?

V

[Danadd]

Now, can you say with 100% certainty without any doubt that you've seen that there is no separate self governing life?

Yes. I have seen it.

Is there any doubt?

No.

If you've seen it, how does it feel to see this?

It feels very freeing and comes with a big sigh. Haha.
As I mentioned, it’s a different type of seeing than I’m used to. It feels freeing seeing that there’s no one here. Believing there is a self comes with a lot of baggage. And it doesn’t go away but it’s a lot lighter because I can see it for what it is. For example, seeing this truth comes with an understanding that I don’t have to change, as I thought before. There is no one to change, or become “perfect”. I mean that I don’t have to “fix” myself and the negative thoughts, but I can let them be because I just see what they really are. I can let go of trying to control them because there is no one to control. There is no one here who is actually wanting someone to change, only thoughts saying this, stories.
It also feels that the present moment is much more interesting than before and sparks curiosity.
It’s quite amazing. Watching how the body moves by itself, words written and thoughts come by themselves. And seeing the thoughts about a self and seeing that they are just thoughts.

What changed since we started our inquiry?
What hasn't?

Well when we started the inquiry I wanted to get somewhere, become something at the end of this. And now I see that there is nowhere to get to, because there is no one that can become something! And there was no one wanting to change at the beginning. Many thoughts are still the same though, about a self, all the stories, the interpretations of the present moment. But the perspective changed, they’re able to be seen through for what they really are, that they’re just stories and interpretations and not reality. So nothing really changed😹 but the way it’s seen has.

Is seeing still on?

Yes, it’s on as I’m writing this! It’s really cool!!
I feel that this has been a gradual process with many aha moments that together helped this be realized. Not really any one specific moment where all of a sudden it was clear, but it all coming together gradually. At this moment, I can definitely see that there is no separate self, sitting here and writing this, creating thoughts, etc. it’s all happening by itself just like the tree grows and the ants walk in many different directions. It allows me to let go and just observe.

I’m very grateful for this inquiry.
Dana

[Danadd]

I also want to clarify and say that it’s not that this is my experience ALL the time. But I now have the perspective to see this which wasn’t that way before.

[Vivien]

Thank you for you replies.

I also want to clarify and say that it’s not that this is my experience ALL the time. But I now have the perspective to see this which wasn’t that way before.

Yes, of course.

Who would want to have this experience all the time?
and whom this experience is happening or not happening TO?

What we usually do at this stage is to ask some checking questions to see if everything is clear and no stone left unturned.

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

thank you,
Vivien

[Danadd]

Who would want to have this experience all the time?
and whom this experience is happening or not happening TO?

There is no one who who this experience is happening to. Seeing this has a big impact. I can now, in this moment, really see that it’s not just that there is no control, no controller, there is no one experiencing this. No one at all. Just experience. And thoughts, emotions, sensations, but no one here who experiences them.
This really makes me curious about what is this. But I know that any thoughts I have about it are just words so I just experience it.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

There is no separate self, as was believed before, who has the name “dana”, who is the controller of her life, etc.
there was never one.
It seemed like there was, just as now it sometimes seems like there is, when certain thoughts arise with this story. But I see now that it isn’t true, and this is the crazy part, that nothing changes but is just seen. So I see that there was never a self, I just thought there was.

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

The illusion of a separate self has a big impact on the experience of daily life. It is like there is a certain reality, and because of this belief of a seperate self the reality becomes very distorted to fit this belief. The belief comes in the shape of thoughts as labels and words and images. For example “this hand is mine”. Or “I am not good enough”. Really life revolves around this belief that there is an I, when there actually isn’t. Another example is the thought that I have control over what I do, that there’s someone here being in control.
Life is happening by itself, the body moves by itself, thoughts thought by themselves, and the belief in a separate self adds a narrative to all this. It doesn’t change the reality, this is the way things are. But it adds a layer of this belief onto it and changes how we view life.
What is different now is that I can watch these thoughts unfold and watch the stories, not fight them because there’s no one to fight, no one saying them, and no one that can stop them. There never was but now it’s seen. So this is what’s changed with the inquiry, the ability to do this this different kind of looking than there was before, a different sense of this moment.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels very freeing, a feeling of just watching what happens. A lot more curiosity is appearing also, about this present moment. It’s pretty incredible seeing what happens. What decision will be made next? What part of the body will move? Just watching it.
Less resistance also to thoughts arising that are unpleasant. There are still unpleasant thoughts, but they flow more freely since they don’t have so much meaning as before, holding the heavy “I am a separate self” baggage.
I was having a conversation with my mom today and was noticing the words that I said, noticing the emotions that came up and it was a wonderful experience of seeing this for what it is. It’s like, the world continues to function like there is a “Dana” but I can observe and see that it’s otherwise.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

I think it was very gradual. One moment that is remembered is when I was feeling my hand for an exercise you gave me and realized that the thought that it’s “my” hand is just a thoughts and isn’t true because there is no “i” who can have ownership of this hand. I really noticed this sensation of the hand and saw that this was just added labeling. I don’t know if this was the “last bit that pushed me over” but it was strong.
And aha moments of seeing that there is no control, like thoughts popping up mainly. If there is no controller, who is here? No one.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

These are all labels thoughts give as an extension of the story of a self that has control. But they do not exist.
It seems like there are decisions made by a person. But when looking closely there aren’t. For example a thought arises “maybe I should go to the bathroom” and some more thoughts come up seeming to debate this. Then finally there’s a thought, “okay, I’ll go in 3,2,1.” And nothing happens. Then after a moment the body gets up. No one decided to get up and no one made the body get up. This is something that I noticed which amazes me each time. There is no such thing as making decisions, no one to make them. Things happen by themselves.
Intentions, like in the example above, can seem like something real but they’re not. The “1,2,3” can seem like the intention. Or intention would come after it. But many times nothing happens, even when it seems like “I intended to do this”. There is no such thing as intention.
For there to be free will there has to be someone who is the one who has free will and can make decisions, etc? There is no one here to have free will.
Throughout the day there are many times when there are choices to make. Like what I want to eat. I went to the fridge this morning and there were a few options. After having a few thoughts about whether to eat cheese on toast or yogurt and fruit, the choice was made to go with fruit. But there was no real choice, just thoughts arising saying things in favor of one or the other, and then a thought “fruit” and then “my” hand grabbing it. There was no person to make a choice, the choice was made by itself.
Control is also not existent. No one controls my heart pumping blood, the wind blowing, etc. just as no one control the thoughts that arise or how the body is moving.
There are thoughts about having control which are also not controlled by anyone.
The decision to choose fruit could seem like “I controlled this, I made this decision” but the thought of “choosing” it came up by itself, just like control.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

Responsibility in terms of what I have control over, and in result of this control what I’m responsible for… that doesn’t exist, it’s just another story. For example, I made my boyfriend a carrot cake a week ago. If he likes it or not, it’s not my responsibility. The decision happened to make the cake, but I didn’t make the decision. The actions that I did were ones of wanting him to like it, to make it delicious, out of the emotions and thoughts that came up, but I wasn’t responsible for them or for how it turned out.

6) Anything to add?

I am very curious to see what this shift will bring and feel that there’s still much room for this understanding to become deeper. I’m wondering if you have any more questions for me? I’ll gladly keep investigating if you feel it’s needed.
Again I want to thank you so much Vivien for your patience and detailed guiding.

Hugs,
Dana

[Danadd]

I want to add regarding responsibility, there are still thoughts that say that “I am responsible for ___” as a result of the world around acting as if there is responsibility, and as if there is a separate self that can be responsible. There is not, but these feelings and thoughts will keep coming as a natural part of us being a part of this society.

[Vivien]

Thank you for your responses. I am going to ask other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a few days. Other guides might have further questions, and if they do, I will bring them to you.

I am very curious to see what this shift will bring and feel that there’s still much room for this understanding to become deeper. I’m wondering if you have any more questions for me? I’ll gladly keep investigating if you feel it’s needed.

This part of the forum is about seeing that there is no separate self governing life. However, deepening can go on. Later, you will be invited into a Facebook group and be able to talk to others and if more things come up, especially around emotions, we can have private sessions later on.

[Danadd]

Great, thank you.

[Vivien]

Hi Dana,

One of the guides has a question for you.

...a feeling of just watching what happens. A lot more curiosity is appearing also, about this present moment. It’s pretty incredible seeing what happens. What decision will be made next? What part of the body will move? Just watching it." Instead " There is just this, what is

What is the color of the watcher?

Thank you,
V

[Danadd]

Thank you for the question.
In “my” direct experience, there is no watcher. There is only what’s watched, what’s experienced. So no color, no one to have a color. If I understood the question correctly.

[Vivien]

Thank you for your reply.

Here is another question for you.

What reality is:
that there is watching + watched or
There is only what’s watched = there is only what is ?

[Danadd]

Thanks for the question,

What reality is:
that there is watching + watched or
There is only what’s watched = there is only what is ?

Between the two sentences I would say the second one, there is only what is. It’s not even that it’s “watched” because then there would have to be a watcher. There is just what is.

[Vivien]

Thank you for your replies.

Other guides have no further questions for you. It has been a pleasure to explore the concept of the separate self with you. Thank you for being open and willing to look.

Keep an eye out for an email notification notifying you of a PM (private message) from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. If you don't receive an email notification, you can access your PM's from the forum once you have logged in. The PM also details other resources available to you.

Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realization of there being no separate self. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions via private message here on the forum, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Please don’t forget that this is just a beginning. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of conditionings, which needs further looking to help them to dissolve. All sorts of old beliefs, emotions and feeling can come up to see them and feel them. Please don’t stop looking if you want things to deepen.

If something comes up and you don’t know how to deal with it, please feel free to contact me, so we can have a look. I do further looking private sessions (video calls) and emotional inquiry. If you are interested, you can read more about that on my website (you can find the link in my signature).

Vivien

[Danadd]

Thank you so much Vivien, again.
It is clear that you care a lot and do it with purpose, which is amazing to see.
I have discovered so much from this guiding and I’m so grateful for it. And it’s good to hear there are more resources that can help later on as well. This is just the beginning as you said :)
Hugs,
Dana

[Vivien]

You are most welcome :)